16:32:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:32:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-irc
16:32:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:32:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:32:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:32:34 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:32:34 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0005.html
16:32:35 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:32:35 <trackbot> Date: 04 June 2015
16:32:58 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:33:02 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:33:04 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:18 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:33:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ aria-selected action-1073 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073 [Matt]
16:33:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ Tables continued
16:33:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ Using bug tracking page https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIA/Tests/Browser_Bug_Tracking
16:33:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ readonly checkboxes issue-712 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/712
16:33:29 <MichaelC> agenda+ Switch role issue-713 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/713
16:33:30 <MichaelC> agenda+ Review Open Action Items and Issues https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
16:33:48 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Stefan_Schnabel
16:34:23 <MichaelC> present: Fred_Esch, Joanie_Diggs, Michael_Cooper, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Léonie_Watson
16:34:31 <MichaelC> meeting: ARIA
16:34:39 <MichaelC> chair: Michael_Cooper
16:35:31 <MichaelC> present- Joanie_Diggs
16:35:40 <MichaelC> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:35:44 <MichaelC> present+ Matt_King
16:36:09 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria
16:37:29 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:38:10 <newtron> newtron has joined #aria
16:38:26 <fesch> Topic: tables and grids
16:38:44 <fesch> zakim item 1
16:38:53 <fesch> zakim, take up item 1
16:38:53 <Zakim> agendum 1. "aria-selected action-1073 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073" taken up [from Matt via MichaelC]
16:39:01 <fesch> POSTPONED
16:39:11 <fesch> zakim, close item
16:39:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', fesch
16:39:20 <fesch> zakim, close this item
16:39:20 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
16:39:21 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:39:21 <Zakim> 2. Tables continued [from MichaelC]
16:39:27 <fesch> zakim, next item
16:39:27 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Tables continued" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:39:52 <clown> matt's email:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0007.html
16:40:06 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0009.html
16:40:09 <fesch> mc: I understand there are two branches a Matt branch and Joniemarie branch
16:40:18 <clown> joanie's email: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0010.html
16:40:41 <joanie> joanie's email with details: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0009.html
16:41:11 <fesch> mk: after studying it much more, on the side to NOT use a property to turn a static table into an interactive grid
16:41:24 <joanie> s/Joniemarie/Joanmarie/
16:42:13 <fesch> mk: primary reason, state and properties associated with an interactive grid are different than states/properties for tables which can cause mass confusion.
16:42:52 <fesch> mk: anyone disagree?
16:43:48 <LJWatson> q+ to agree separating design patterns makes sense.
16:44:28 <LJWatson> q?
16:44:47 <fesch> mk: a concrete example - aria-selected could be used with grid but not with table - how would we make that clear in the spec?
16:44:59 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-selected
16:45:39 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:46:13 <MichaelC> present+ James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa
16:46:15 <MichaelC> ack l
16:46:15 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to agree separating design patterns makes sense.
16:46:17 <fesch> mk: if you have a grid that could be a grid (active true) or a table (active false) how do you work with properties
16:46:43 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:47:08 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:47:13 <fesch> lw: talked with developers - all a table is a static thing and interactive thing are different use cases, separating them is logical thing to do
16:47:56 <fesch> lw: a simple set of roles for tables seem like the soln
16:48:09 <jamesn> q+
16:48:14 <fesch> mc: Matt you are OK with either approach?
16:48:42 <fesch> mk: no, I only like approach of separate roles (not interactive property)
16:49:16 <fesch> mk: I wouldn't be comfortable if we implemented both... (only separate roles)
16:49:29 <LJWatson> s/a simple set of roles for tables seem like the soln/Based on conversations with developers, a separate set of roles for simple/static tables as opposed to interactive/grid tables makes most sense./
16:49:39 <fesch> mc: Joanie has branch with separate roles...
16:50:09 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0009.html
16:50:11 <fesch> jN: what do we mean by separate roles?  Just table vs grid or header roles as well
16:50:40 <MichaelC> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
16:50:43 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/table-and-cell/aria/aria.html#table
16:50:56 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/table-and-cell/aria/aria.html#cell
16:51:05 <fesch> jd: wanted to keep it separate - two roles table and cell
16:51:30 <fesch> jd: reads her email...
16:52:16 <fesch> jd: read about cell
16:52:28 <fesch> jd: reads about table...
16:52:57 <MichaelC> q+
16:53:20 <MichaelC> ack j
16:53:44 <fesch> mk: first question on colheader and rowheader - sometimes colheader is a widget and sometimes not... properties not appropriate for table
16:54:49 <fesch> mk: aria-readonly - should never appear on static table,   aria-require...  are not global if context is table but would be for grid
16:55:17 <fesch> jn: not sure how readonly applies to a grid?
16:55:45 <fesch> mk: editable column and header could be in a spreadsheet....
16:56:05 <fesch> mk: could mark readonly if user can't change name
16:56:27 <fesch> cs: or in a pivot table, but I don't think it is a common situatuion
16:56:50 <fesch> cs: something about an old COBAL table - not editiable
16:57:17 <MichaelC> q-
16:58:09 <fesch> jd: how the spec pulls it in and how we rely on inherited properties and  states, doesn't apply here but a general problem
16:58:27 <fesch> jd: ... expandable rows, sloppy....
16:58:39 <fesch> mk: aria-expanded....
16:58:44 <joanie> In a treegrid, authors may mark rows as expandable, using the aria-expanded attribute to indicate the present status. This is not the case for an ordinary table or grid, in which the aria-expanded attribute is not present.
16:58:51 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/table-and-cell/aria/aria.html#aria-expanded
16:59:50 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-expanded
17:00:12 <fesch> bg: why isn't it OK for aira-expanded to be used on a table, suppose a cell has a link and it expands a row
17:00:30 <fesch> mk: what does it mean for a row to be collasped
17:00:45 <fesch> mk: what do you show in the table?
17:00:46 <jamesn> http://www.codeproject.com/KB/aspnet/Expandabe-DataTable-MVC/expandableDataTables-table.png
17:01:34 <fesch> bg: no, a medical service provider has a pharmacy table.... also links which you can expand it and it gives instructions for the medication....
17:01:53 <fesch> bg: aria-expanded just lets you know if it is hidden
17:02:44 <fesch> jn: took a screenshot - company name column, .... when you expand the row, you get all the employees... and this is pretty common
17:03:09 <fesch> mk: it is hard to claim you are expanding the row... you are showing something hidden
17:03:55 <fesch> jd: I brought up that thing, is that sometimes it doesn't make sense, so don't do it.
17:04:28 <fesch> jd: what about a sortable table by column?
17:05:02 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-sort
17:05:28 <fesch> mk: aria-sort the spec says that applies both to column headers in both table and grid, but there is no way to support that in mappings, aria-sort is not global -
17:05:52 <fesch> mk: IBM checker will put an error on a spec with it, but it is not correct
17:06:23 <jamesn> another example
17:06:25 <jamesn> http://jdevadf.oracle.com/adf-richclient-demo/faces/components/table/detailStampTableSomeDisclosure.jspx
17:07:40 <fesch> mc: seems we have a emerging  consensus for Joanie's path,
17:07:59 <MichaelC> present+ Janina_Sajka
17:08:10 <jamesn> (notes we often add that info in the summary attribute)
17:08:12 <fesch> mk: when I approach a table I want to know who the table is sorted without reading the data
17:08:59 <fesch> bg: need a better mapping... but sort works for that information
17:09:09 <fesch> mc: seems like we are OK with sort
17:09:31 <fesch> mk: aria-required is the other one I am concerned about
17:09:46 <fesch> mk: it is weird to hear on a static table, just noise
17:10:07 <fesch> cs: sounds like a developer problem, not  spec problem
17:11:13 <fesch> jn: if someone puts an * on a column header, to tell the user a column is required, why isn't that valid?
17:11:31 <fesch> mk: you put required on the input not the header
17:11:56 <fesch> mc: sounds like nothing needs to be done with required
17:13:00 <fesch> mc:  what aria-readonly and aria-required should be done in the spec
17:13:27 <fesch> mc: seems like consensus with Joaine's table branch
17:13:34 <fesch> +1
17:14:28 <fesch> mk: the required context role was missing from the table but mentioned in the text
17:14:58 <fesch> mk: trying to find....
17:15:06 <fesch> mc: easy fix to do offline
17:18:32 <MichaelC> proposed resolution: Accept the new table roles and taxonomy changes modulo notes about aria-readonly and aria-required (Joanie to merge that branch, Matt to park the alternate one)
17:19:43 <LJWatson> +1
17:19:44 <fesch> +1
17:20:35 <clown> Matt to park the aria-interactive branch for tables.
17:20:51 <fesch> RESOLUTION:: Accept the new table roles and taxonomy changes modulo notes about aria-readonly and aria-required (Joanie to merge that branch, Matt to park the aria -nteractive branch)
17:21:09 <fesch> s/::/:/
17:21:21 <MichaelC> action-1505?
17:21:21 <trackbot> action-1505 -- Matthew King to Create an aria-interactive property for issue 633 -- due 2015-05-08 -- OPEN
17:21:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1505
17:21:28 <fesch> s/-nter/-inter
17:21:37 <MichaelC> close action-1505
17:21:38 <fesch> s/-nter/-inter/
17:21:38 <trackbot> Closed action-1505.
17:21:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-minutes.html clown
17:22:01 <MichaelC> action-1505: dropped this proposal in favor of a separate set of table roles
17:22:01 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1505 Create an aria-interactive property for issue 633.
17:22:15 <fesch> jd: what about the HTML discussion about aria-interaction?
17:22:42 <fesch> mk: related to action ...
17:23:04 <fesch> mk: aria-interactive could come back.
17:23:13 <MichaelC> issue-633: closed action-1505 regarding tables but the issue still needs to be addressed for other use cases
17:23:13 <trackbot> Sorry, but I think you meant to close issue-633.
17:23:25 <MichaelC> issue-633: we closed action-1505 regarding tables but the issue still needs to be addressed for other use cases
17:23:25 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-633 listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items.
17:24:14 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27866
17:24:15 <joanie> I created action-1646 on the readonly and required.
17:24:25 <joanie> action-1646
17:24:25 <trackbot> action-1646 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add clarifying text to readonly and required properties -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
17:24:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1646
17:24:29 <MichaelC> issue-633: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27866
17:24:29 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-633 listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items.
17:24:55 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:24:55 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Using bug tracking page https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIA/Tests/Browser_Bug_Tracking" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:25:54 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:26:07 <fesch> mc: when we file issues with user agents, that we want to track, we want a keyword in the bug so we can track it
17:26:21 <fesch> cs: can filter on accessibility
17:27:02 <fesch> mc: may want something more specific... and add a note on the page, then we can go through the bugs...
17:27:51 <fesch> jd: make a metabug - for example there is an orca metabug --- I make a lot of bugs.... that block the meta bug....
17:28:23 <fesch> js: so JD is proposing a ARIA meta bug
17:28:46 <fesch> cs: could do #aria... or...
17:29:01 <fesch> js: tried aria lower case picks up lots of stuff
17:29:40 <clown> for example, https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/SearchResults.aspx?SearchQuery=aria
17:29:45 <fesch> mc: sounds like we need different practices - for the different trackers (no suprise)
17:30:39 <fesch> mc: need to document the practices for the 4 trackers, do we like the idea of meta-bugs?
17:30:42 <fesch> js: yes
17:31:03 <fesch> mc: want meta-bugs for the ones where we can use them...
17:31:38 <fesch> jd: in chromium you can block bugs
17:32:46 <fesch> need to expand bug tracking page, then create meta bugs and document in this page
17:33:41 <fesch> zakim: next topic
17:33:46 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:33:46 <Zakim> agendum 4. "readonly checkboxes issue-712 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/712" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:34:43 <fesch> mc: does it make sense for a checkbox to be read only?
17:35:08 <fesch> js: currently checkbox doesn't have readonly should it?
17:35:27 <fesch> mk: why do you need readonly if you have disabled?
17:35:55 <fesch> jn: may need readonly if the value is important to the user, disabled the value shouldn't be important to user
17:36:25 <fesch> cs: often used for choices... with dependencies or you don't have access to change them
17:37:27 <fesch> jn: preference settings, where administrators change stuff, so you are trying to convey that there are changeable options but you may not have privileges
17:37:42 <fesch> mk: what is the visible difference?
17:38:09 <fesch> jn: may see the check but no border, you want the consistency of the check...
17:38:27 <fesch> cs: we often use disabled...
17:38:47 <fesch> jn: using disabled - the disabled color contrast isn't sufficient to read
17:39:22 <fesch> mk: can some User agents take disabled stuff out of the keyboard sequence...
17:40:01 <fesch> mc: Alexanders noticed different behaviors between browsers... not that he was supporting one way or another
17:40:36 <fesch> jn; a reason to make custom checkboxes - because you want it to be readonly instead of disabled
17:40:58 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-readonly
17:41:01 <fesch> mk: if we want to do this we should need to reread readonly and disabled
17:41:19 <fesch> mk: it is not global so you can't put on a div
17:41:30 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-disabled
17:42:37 <fesch> jn: ---- audio  connections webex --- eaten by webex...
17:42:53 <fesch> s/js/mc/
17:45:08 <clown> from html 5.1 nightly:  The difference between disabled and readonly is that read-only controls are still focusable, so the user can still select the text and interact with it, whereas disabled controls are entirely non-interactive. (For this reason, only text controls can be made read-only: it wouldn't make sense for checkboxes or buttons, for instances.
17:45:22 <fesch> jn: HTML checkbox behavior is weird, if you put readonly on it - it renders differently, only keeps it from changing the value, not whether the checkbox checks or not!
17:46:11 <fesch> jn: that is an application developer does that, what we are doing for AT...
17:46:15 <clown> q+ to point out what HTML5 says about readonly checkboxes.
17:46:26 <fesch> bg: what happens when someone puts readonly on the checkbox
17:46:44 <fesch> mk: need an author should statement
17:46:47 <MichaelC> q?
17:46:49 <MichaelC> ack c
17:46:49 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out what HTML5 says about readonly checkboxes.
17:47:16 <fesch> js:  reads what he pasted in...
17:47:53 <fesch> cs: we should follow HTML
17:48:06 <fesch> mk: do we always follow HTML?  no
17:48:23 <mattking> This the current description of aria-readonly: Indicates that the element  is not editable, but is otherwise operable.
17:48:28 <fesch> cs: read a real benefit to NOT follow HTML...
17:49:13 <fesch> jn: a disabled value means - the value in unimportant, readonly means it is important but not changable
17:50:06 <fesch> mk: is our description the same as HTML?
17:50:18 <fesch> js: depends on what operable means
17:50:41 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#dfn-operable
17:51:14 <fesch> lw: are we trying to fix a problem?
17:51:41 <fesch> jn: we have 3 states  with checkboxes...
17:51:57 <fesch> lw: I've not come across this as an issue
17:52:20 <fesch> mc: so James you have use cases for readonly use cases?
17:52:36 <fesch> jn: yes, but if everyone else disagrees, I will drop it
17:53:08 <fesch> cs: having it behave different than HTML will cause more problems...
17:53:32 <fesch> js: this sounds like we disagree with HTML on what readonly means
17:53:56 <fesch> mc: we have identified use cases but question how widespread they are
17:54:14 <fesch> mk: a screen reader doesn't care which you use
17:54:50 <fesch> jn: as a screen reader user, if you hear that an item is disabled do you think the value is important?
17:54:53 <fesch> mk: yes
17:55:15 <fesch> lw: an example is a disabled submit button
17:55:45 <fesch> cs: that has been a paradigm on windows for a long time
17:56:45 <fesch> lw: suggested a WCAG technique for this
17:57:06 <fesch> jn: we could do that
17:58:27 <fesch> mc: makes me wonder if it is really a checkbox, but is really a different role...
17:59:16 <fesch> mc: do we want to continue this discussion?
17:59:30 <MichaelC> action: nurthen to document use cases for readonly checkboxes
17:59:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1647 - Document use cases for readonly checkboxes [on James Nurthen - due 2015-06-11].
17:59:32 <fesch> jn: if I can come up with use cases I will send them out...
17:59:43 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1647 with issue-712
17:59:44 <trackbot> action-1647 (Document use cases for readonly checkboxes) associated with issue-712.
18:00:05 <MichaelC> action-1647 due 3 weeks
18:00:05 <trackbot> Set action-1647 Document use cases for readonly checkboxes due date to 2015-06-25.
18:00:24 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:00:31 <MichaelC> issue-712: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-minutes.html
18:00:31 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-712 Should checkbox role support aria-readonly?.
18:00:57 <fesch> rrsagent,  make minutes
18:00:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-minutes.html fesch
18:12:19 <MichaelC> rrsagent,b ye
18:12:19 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'b ye', MichaelC.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:12:21 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
18:12:21 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-actions.rdf :
18:12:21 <RRSAgent> ACTION: nurthen to document use cases for readonly checkboxes [1]
18:12:21 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-aria-irc#T17-59-30
18:12:23 <MichaelC> zakim, bye
18:12:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria