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14:54:39 <azaroth> q?
14:56:50 <azaroth> Regrets: Frederick_Hirsch, Ray_Denenberg
14:56:54 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
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14:58:27 <bjdmeest> Present+ bjdmeest
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14:59:40 <azaroth> Present+ Addison_Phillips
14:59:49 <azaroth> Present+ Matt_Haas
14:59:57 <azaroth> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:00:02 <Matt_Haas> Present+ Matt_Haas
15:00:03 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
15:01:06 <ivan> Present+ Richard_Ishida
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15:02:05 <azaroth> RangeFinder draft: http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/api/rangefinder/
15:02:29 <Janina_> Present+ Janina_Sarol
15:02:57 <azaroth> Takeshi's character length research: https://gist.github.com/tkanai/e2984cfa14cf099baa94
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15:03:11 <Jacob> Present+ Jacob_Jett
15:03:36 <r12a> Addison is planning to attend
15:03:50 <Kyrce> Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
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15:04:13 <r12a> present?
15:05:00 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:06:35 <tbdinesh> Present+ TB_Dinesh
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15:07:08 <davis_salisbury> davis_salisbury present+
15:07:14 <bjdmeest> scribenick bjdmeest
15:07:23 <bjdmeest> [people introducing]
15:08:38 <r12a> call in user 4 is David Salisbury
15:10:00 <azaroth> s/David/Davis/
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15:11:22 <azaroth> Takeshi: can you join the call?
15:11:51 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
15:12:01 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
15:12:01 <Zakim> sorry, r12a, I don't know what conference this is
15:12:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see takeshi, davis_salisbury, MiguelAraCo, tbdinesh, Kyrce, r12a, Janina_, Jacob, bjdmeest, TimCole, Matt_Haas, RRSAgent, Zakim, azaroth, PaoloCiccarese, renoirb, dauwhe,
15:12:03 <Zakim> ... ivan, KevinMarks, bigbluehat, tessierashpool_, csillag_, ujvari_, oshepherd, nickstenn, JakeHart, dwhly, stain, trackbot, Mitar, rhiaro
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15:12:37 <bjdmeest> azaroth: issues to dicuss:
15:12:45 <bjdmeest> ... i18n for annotation
15:13:14 <bjdmeest> ... and in particular (brought up in F2F of april): codepoint issues
15:13:44 <bjdmeest> ... and how that would affect the counts for the anchoring of an annotation
15:13:51 <bjdmeest> ... second issue: rangefinder API
15:14:27 <PaoloCiccarese> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:14:53 <bjdmeest> TOPIC: character counting
15:15:07 <bjdmeest> https://gist.github.com/tkanai/e2984cfa14cf099baa94
15:15:16 <bjdmeest> azaroth: issue is
15:15:25 <bjdmeest> ... in annotation model, there are different selectors
15:15:37 <bjdmeest> ... we need consistent way of implementations of range by character count
15:16:19 <bjdmeest> ... text length is counted differently in different languages
15:16:25 <bjdmeest> ... (see gist)
15:16:28 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
15:17:24 <bjdmeest> addison: programming languages that use UTF16 use code points
15:17:39 <bjdmeest> ... languages that use UTF8 hide that
15:18:04 <bjdmeest> ... code points makes most sense, most languages can find out code points
15:18:28 <bjdmeest> ... other issues: the 'user perceived boundaries'
15:18:46 <bjdmeest> ... e.g., boundary between colors, emoji's etc..
15:18:57 <bjdmeest> ... that is harder from a spec point of view
15:19:21 <bjdmeest> azaroth: so python uses code points, and javascript can get to the code points?
15:19:25 <bjdmeest> addison: yes
15:20:55 <TimCole> q+
15:21:07 <bjdmeest> azaroth: easiest is thus to count code points, and make note that javascript implementations will be able to this, but currently can't
15:21:24 <bjdmeest> addisson: and help for e.g. unicode controls
15:21:32 <r12a> q+
15:21:37 <ivan> s/addisson/addison/
15:22:03 <bjdmeest> azaroth: e.g. e + acute character?
15:22:05 <azaroth> ack TimCole
15:22:12 <bjdmeest> addison: yes, and also emoji's
15:22:37 <bjdmeest> TimCole: thinking about use cases: user can highlight part of text
15:22:39 <takeshi> q+
15:22:51 <bjdmeest> ... so perceived characters is what the user thinks he/she is annotating
15:23:28 <bjdmeest> ... e.g., perceived characters that count differently on different devices:
15:23:44 <bjdmeest> ... is there a different between laptop-viz and smartphone-viz?
15:23:52 <bjdmeest> addison: that won't be a problem
15:24:52 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. scripted selection or programmatic manipulation is tricky for user perceived text selection
15:25:29 <azaroth> ack r12a
15:25:41 <bjdmeest> ... boundaries will always be in the same places (codepoints), but scripting languages might translate those codepoints to different bytes (eg utf8 vs utf16
15:26:19 <bjdmeest> r12a: there are other control characters, e.g., bidirectional controls
15:26:36 <bjdmeest> ... if one of those appears at boundary of selection, that might be an issue
15:27:15 <bjdmeest> ... also: if a user will count the amount of characters they want, that will be more problematic
15:27:55 <azaroth> q+ to ask about polyfill possibility
15:28:20 <bjdmeest> ... third thing: in javascript it is possible to detect characters out of the 'normal range'
15:28:33 <azaroth> ack takeshi
15:30:00 <bjdmeest> takeshi: to my understanding: it is not necessary to find accurate character length, but enough if we can count letters with unicode code points
15:30:37 <bjdmeest> adisson: invisible code points can change visualization of other code points. If you stop the boundary too soon, you might not pick up important modifier
15:30:57 <r12a> q+
15:31:30 <bjdmeest> takeshi: invisible character might become visible as a square
15:31:32 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:31:32 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to ask about polyfill possibility
15:32:19 <bjdmeest> addison: programmers can detect when a length is 2 instead of 1, because that will lie in a certain range
15:32:44 <azaroth> q?
15:32:46 <bjdmeest> azaroth: is it possible to polyfill that? that probably needs some hardcore javascript programmer
15:32:47 <azaroth> ack r12a
15:33:11 <bjdmeest> r12a: the multilingual plane will always return single code point
15:33:41 <bjdmeest> ... beyond that (e.g. chinese and japanese) will always need to be combined, they are surrogates
15:33:59 <bjdmeest> ... so you can look for the second 'character' to combine them
15:34:37 <bjdmeest> ... However, the question is: why would you need to count characters? user selects text via highlight, so he is in control of the range
15:34:54 <bjdmeest> ...what gets picked up is a range of text, then you don't need to count
15:35:25 <bjdmeest> addison: you need to remember what the original annotated content was.
15:35:30 <azaroth> q?
15:35:49 <bjdmeest> ... When you try to compute where the annotation should go, that is a different use case then manual selection (e.g., RangeFinder)
15:36:22 <bjdmeest> azaroth: there is offset-based and string-based selectors: one of this issues is copyright and IP
15:36:51 <bjdmeest> ... if annotations are created that record 100 characters, and with enough annotations, you could reconstruct the entire copyrighted text
15:37:18 <bjdmeest> ... with offset, you cannot reconstruct the entire text
15:37:33 <bjdmeest> ... so only recording the exact text string is not enough
15:38:01 <azaroth> q?
15:38:31 <bjdmeest> addison: offset is also more efficient: you don't want to ship the entire selection (if that selection is large) together with that annotation
15:38:46 <azaroth> TOPIC: RangeFinder API
15:39:26 <bjdmeest> azaroth: RangeFinder API is browserlevel api to discover ranges using input that describes that range of text
15:40:01 <bjdmeest> ... basic constructor has inputs, e.g., prefix, suffix, text, character start, character length, xpath
15:40:13 <bjdmeest> ... or case folding (is case important or not)
15:40:39 <bjdmeest> ... or unicode folding (is e+accent vs e important or not)
15:41:15 <bjdmeest> ... or word boundary important (should tooth also be used to identify toothpaste)
15:41:35 <bjdmeest> ... Addison had a look from a i18n point of view
15:41:47 <aphillip> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2015AprJun/0136.html
15:42:19 <bjdmeest> addison: we've been working on a character string model
15:42:59 <bjdmeest> ... first reaction: bunch of options, they might not all make sense
15:43:27 <aphillip> http://w3c.github.io/charmod-norm/#searching
15:43:40 <bjdmeest> azaroth: ways forward: first as simple as possible?
15:44:07 <bjdmeest> adisson: no, you need to think of these problems (of other languages) from early on
15:44:34 <r12a> q+
15:44:38 <bjdmeest> ... e.g., word boundary is very easy implementable for latin-based languages, and makes sense for japanese, but japanese does not use spaces
15:44:50 <azaroth> ack r12a
15:45:01 <bjdmeest> ... that would need a dictionary
15:45:42 <bjdmeest> r12a: if you doubleclick on a word of any language, browsers can handle the word selection form japanese and thai...
15:45:44 <azaroth> q?
15:45:53 <bjdmeest> ... other languages use special characters to split words
15:46:25 <bjdmeest> addison: word boundary (browser-based) is not perfect
15:46:29 <TimCole> q+
15:47:10 <bjdmeest> azaroth: documentation should include those links, together with charmod
15:47:16 <bjdmeest> ... and keep RangeFinder in sync
15:47:48 <bjdmeest> addison: there is a section about case folding, that is language sensitive (spec might need to take that into account)
15:48:16 <bjdmeest> ... current text in RangeFinder about unicode normalization has some major challenges
15:48:36 <bjdmeest> ... you can do harm to text if you remove all combining characters, that might break some languages
15:48:47 <azaroth> ack TimCole
15:49:09 <takeshi> q+
15:49:12 <bjdmeest> TimCole: Anno WG needs to think more about use cases and requirements, in order to say:
15:49:37 <aphillip> see also: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/#Searching
15:49:58 <bjdmeest> ... in languages X and Y, we will not support word folding
15:50:07 <bjdmeest> ... to make more realistic implementations for browsers
15:50:25 <bjdmeest> azaroth: stronger i18n-based use cases are needed
15:50:42 <azaroth> ack takeshi
15:53:31 <bjdmeest> addison: collation algorithm is more tuned to sorting tokens than to search text
15:53:36 <bjdmeest> ... computing time is larger
15:53:54 <bjdmeest> azaroth: i18n for the body of the annotation not just the target document segment is a great point
15:54:04 <azaroth> q?
15:54:59 <bjdmeest> azaroth: encoding of the annotations themselves if body or target has i18n-characters
15:55:17 <bjdmeest> ...is that a problem for JSON(-LD) or Turtle that we need to take into account?
15:55:29 <bigbluehat> q+
15:55:42 <bigbluehat> q-
15:55:50 <bjdmeest> addison: both formats use sequence of unicode-characters, so it shouldn't an issue
15:56:38 <bjdmeest> bigbluehat: [will continue about this on mail]
15:57:04 <bjdmeest> addison: we are very interested for input on how best to document this, and getting reviews for our documents
15:57:53 <bjdmeest> azaroth: takeshi, and others, can you have a look at the character model document
15:58:13 <bjdmeest> ... thank you Addison and Richard for your input
15:59:10 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/03-annotation-minutes.html ivan
15:59:15 <r12a> q+
15:59:16 <bjdmeest> r18n: [about RangeFinder API review] you can use the mailing list
15:59:20 <azaroth> ack r12a
15:59:24 <bjdmeest> ... of i18n working group
15:59:35 <ivan> s/r18n/addison/
16:00:00 <bjdmeest> ... If there comments about character model (@Takeshi), you can add issues to the github repo
16:00:00 <tantek> tantek has joined #annotation
16:00:35 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/03-annotation-minutes.html ivan
16:00:36 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #annotation
16:01:11 <ivan> tracker, end telcon
16:01:25 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
16:01:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:01:25 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:01:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:01:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/03-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
16:01:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:01:53 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
16:01:58 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
16:01:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items