IRC log of tt on 2015-05-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-tt-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be TTML

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ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

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Date: 28 May 2015

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SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started

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+[Apple]

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+nigel

14:01:21 [nigel]

Present: courtney, nigel

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chair: nigel

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scribe: nigel

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+pal

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zakim, Apple is courtney

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+courtney; got it

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+ +1.720.897.aaaa

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Present+ pal

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Present+ glenn

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zakim, aaaa is glenn

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+glenn; got it

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Regrets: frans

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+Andreas

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Present+ Andreas

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Topic: This meeting

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nigel: It's been a quiet couple of weeks. I'd like to discuss briefly the TTML2 Editorial Actions. AOB?

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group: No AOB.

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Topic: Action Items

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glenn: I've been doing a bit of work on Action-383 but have found no satisfactory conclusion to it yet.

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action-383?

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action-383 -- Glenn Adams to Missing XML declaration -- due 2015-04-30 -- OPEN

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http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/383

14:07:02 [nigel]

glenn: I'm still working on that one.

14:07:28 [nigel]

action-387?

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action-387 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Collate list of potential implementors of imsc 1. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN

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http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/387

14:07:51 [nigel]

pal: This is in progress. It's somewhat related to the plan for W3C to reach out to the implementors.

14:07:58 [nigel]

nigel: I think tmichel is back next week.

14:08:48 [nigel]

pal: Ok, I'll try to get this done and coordinate with tmichel. I want to avoid a lull after raising excitement levels with implementors.

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action-396?

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action-396 -- David Singer to Produce evidence of request for wide review for webvtt, for the archive -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN

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http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/396

14:10:01 [nigel]

courtney: dsinger sent some emails this week to try to wrap this up - he's working on it.

14:10:34 [nigel]

Topic: Issues

14:10:45 [nigel]

glenn: I expect to file some new issues on TTML2 on the potential need for some additional features

14:11:02 [nigel]

... related to handling corner cases with Ruby alignment. I don't have the data to create those yet.

14:11:24 [nigel]

... Just to note the area that I'm looking at. There's a probable need for adding some additional support

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... for baseline alignment. Things get tricky with Ruby and textEmphasis handling baseline alignment

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... and generating even spacing for lineHeights whether there's Ruby present or not. That's the area

14:12:11 [nigel]

... I'm referring to when I say we might need additional features. Both CSS and XSL-FO have similar

14:12:23 [nigel]

... definitions of baseline properties that we can draw on for doing this.

14:12:44 [nigel]

... The specific properties are three: "dominant" baseline which is used to express the dominant baseline

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... on the parent line area or on a child inline area. The next one is "alignment" baseline which is used to

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... express which baseline on the parent is to be used to align the child. The third is baseline shift or

14:13:36 [nigel]

... baseline offset which is an additional movement of the baseline related to the other two.

14:13:57 [nigel]

... Another thing I've been working on which is interesting is ipd and bpd on a span. It turns out I've

14:14:15 [nigel]

... found a need for supporting struts, which are spans that have zero size in ipd or bpd. Right now we

14:14:29 [nigel]

... effectively support them but don't say anything about them. Simply by supporting ipd and bpd on

14:14:45 [nigel]

... span we support the semantics for struts but we don't talk about them anywhere. It turns out they

14:15:01 [nigel]

... will probably be very useful for managing height of lines in horizontal writing modes and width in

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... vertical writing modes.

14:15:30 [nigel]

nigel: It sounds like a strut and a br are very similar things.

14:16:17 [nigel]

glenn: Not to me - br just inserts a hard line break. Does a br introduce any vertical space in a horizontal

14:16:55 [nigel]

... writing mode? It does based on lineHeight, if it follows a previous br. The thing is that to alter the

14:17:10 [nigel]

... height of a line without having any content in it, there's no way to do that today without using a strut.

14:17:26 [nigel]

... You could alter all the lines on a p by changing the lineHeight property but you can't do it on a single

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... line.

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... We might also need to add to the condition system some new layout function expressions that

14:18:09 [nigel]

... conditionalise application of styles based on layout states for example line-first, line-odd, line-even,

14:18:30 [nigel]

... ruby-before, ruby-after etc. All these things have been coming out of work I've been doing with edge

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... cases on ruby recently.

14:19:06 [nigel]

nigel: I'm not aware of any other work on issues.

14:20:01 [nigel]

Topic: IMSC 1 CR2

14:20:17 [nigel]

pal: I think the next step is to work with thierry and others to get input from non-W3C members on this.

14:21:02 [nigel]

nigel: Is there anything specifically that you think would help from W3C?

14:21:18 [nigel]

pal: As we discussed in Las Vegas, this is a W3C spec but many of the implementors are not W3 members.

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... They may be a little concerned about sharing implementation results with W3C, putting myself in their shoes.

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... How will the results be used, why am I doing it, etc are not immediately obvious. Since the process

14:22:09 [nigel]

... is contingent on those results we might be in a catch-22. My recollection of the conclusion from the

14:22:23 [nigel]

... discussion in Vegas is it might make sense for W3C to reach out to those implementors and explain

14:22:33 [nigel]

... why their input is valuable and how it would be used.

14:23:06 [nigel]

nigel: I'm fine with that - if there are implementors who have concerns then we should be understanding

14:23:12 [nigel]

... those concerns and trying to address them.

14:24:05 [nigel]

andreas: Do we have the idea of a webinar or something similar to explain IMSC to get more attention and explain more?

14:24:22 [nigel]

pal: I think somehow tmichel or maybe plh implied that they had ideas on what to do.

14:24:41 [nigel]

andreas: I think many people are interested in that but maybe wouldn't join a bigger conference.

14:24:55 [nigel]

... Half an hour or an hour to explain what's going on would be good. Mike Dolan once did this for

14:25:11 [nigel]

... SMPTE-TT which was successful. If you can record it and make it available later then it would be very helpful.

14:25:24 [nigel]

pal: +1 Let me take a note of that for when I follow up with thierry.

14:25:35 [nigel]

... At least it should be a possibility we cover.

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Topic: TTML2 Editorial Actions

14:26:51 [nigel]

nigel: Has anyone looked at the ednotes spreadsheet and decided to volunteer?

14:26:59 [nigel]

pal: I've started looking at my one and have a question about it.

14:27:04 [nigel]

nigel: Me too for one of mine.

14:27:36 [nigel]

pal: I generated a sample image for §10.2.10 disparity and glenn, are you wedded to the example TTML?

14:27:48 [nigel]

... For instance the value of the disparity and the fact that there's a single image?

14:28:04 [nigel]

glenn: Sure, go ahead and change the example or mock-up to what you think is appropriate.

14:28:12 [nigel]

... You should have that flexibility.

14:28:25 [nigel]

pal: Thanks. Specifically, a disparity of 0.7% is too small to see, and needs to be increased, and also

14:28:39 [nigel]

... I'm thinking to have 2 regions, one with zero disparity and the other with disparity so that you can

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... easily see the difference between the two renderings.

14:28:49 [nigel]

glenn: Thank you.

14:30:00 [nigel]

nigel: My one was on system model, §1.1 Figure 1. We know we want to change DFXP -> TTML. But

14:30:07 [nigel]

... there are other things we might want to bring in.

14:30:21 [nigel]

nigel: The first question is should profiles be in the system model?

14:30:45 [nigel]

glenn: Interesting idea. The system model right now focuses on data flow and types of data. I would

14:30:59 [nigel]

... almost suggest a different diagram. If you mix profiles then it might get too busy. I would suggest

14:32:27 [nigel]

... experimenting and seeing what makes sense.

14:32:41 [nigel]

nigel: My next question is does it make sense to include transformation processors and presentation

14:32:54 [nigel]

... processors in the system model, possibly relating the content and processor profiles in there.

14:33:56 [nigel]

glenn: I would say yes, and also including ISG generation as an option in the flow for transcoding.

14:34:18 [nigel]

... We effectively have that informally in TTML1, though without a concrete representation. From a reader's

14:34:30 [nigel]

... perspective, having an illustration somewhere that shows something about that process visually

14:35:12 [nigel]

... would be useful. You could certainly add that into the system model.

14:35:27 [nigel]

nigel: I'm also wondering if we should explicitly name the flow from ISG into HTML/CSS to help folk

14:35:44 [nigel]

... understand how TTML presentation fits into the web context.

14:35:47 [nigel]

glenn: Yes, exactly.

14:36:08 [nigel]

nigel: Okay well I'll attempt to do this and make it available for review.

14:37:28 [nigel]

nigel: Going back to the spreadsheet, has anyone had a hard time accessing it?

14:37:37 [nigel]

group: No (silently!)

14:38:59 [nigel]

nigel: Looking at the agenda, I think there's no more to cover this week, so we'll draw to a close.

14:39:21 [nigel]

... Just to remind everyone I'm still looking for a chair for 18th and 25th June.

14:39:29 [nigel]

pal: I'm happy to be available on standby for that.

14:39:35 [nigel]

nigel: Thank you very much pierre!

14:39:59 [nigel]

nigel: Thanks everyone, meeting same time next week. [adjourns meeting]

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-glenn

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-courtney

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-Andreas

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-pal

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-nigel

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SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were nigel, pal, courtney, +1.720.897.aaaa, glenn, Andreas

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rrsagent, make logs public

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rrsagent, generate minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-tt-minutes.html nigel

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ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics

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rrsagent, generate minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-tt-minutes.html nigel

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