16:21:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:21:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-aria-irc
16:21:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:21:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:21:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
16:21:35 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:21:35 <trackbot> Date: 28 May 2015
16:21:38 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015May/0185.html
16:24:18 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria
16:30:05 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
16:30:23 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:31:14 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
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16:35:52 <fesch> present+ Fred_Esch
16:37:10 <MichaelC> issue: Should checkbox role support aria-readonly?
16:37:10 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-712 - Should checkbox role support aria-readonly?.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/712/edit>.
16:37:15 <MichaelC> issue-712: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0118.html
16:37:15 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-712 Should checkbox role support aria-readonly?.
16:37:31 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1591 with issue-712
16:37:31 <trackbot> action-1591 (checkbox role doesn't list aria-readonly) associated with issue-712.
16:39:07 <MichaelC> action-1073 due 1 week
16:39:07 <trackbot> Set action-1073 Update aria-selected to reflect that it communicates selectability and clarify responsibility for ensuring aria-selected=false is on selectable elements due date to 2015-06-04.
16:39:42 <clown> action-1320?
16:39:42 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
16:39:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
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16:40:00 <MichaelC> action-1320 due 1 week
16:40:00 <trackbot> Set action-1320 Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. due date to 2015-06-04.
16:40:42 <MichaelC> action-1361 due 2 weeks
16:40:42 <trackbot> Set action-1361 Suggest new text for the application role due date to 2015-06-11.
16:42:19 <MichaelC> close action-1463
16:42:19 <trackbot> Closed action-1463.
16:44:11 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:45:23 <LJWatson> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIA/Tests/Browser_Bug_Tracking
16:45:41 <MichaelC> action-1473: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIA/Tests/Browser_Bug_Tracking
16:45:41 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1473 Prepare wiki page that references all the browser accessibility defects..
16:45:53 <clown> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:47:05 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:47:19 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIA/Tests/Browser_Bug_Tracking
16:47:27 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:49:31 <MichaelC> close action-1473
16:49:31 <trackbot> Closed action-1473.
16:50:38 <bgaraventa1979> apologies, I just realized I have a conflicting meeting in 10 minutes, so I'll need to drop off then
16:51:31 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-readonly
16:54:56 <clown> action-1592?
16:54:56 <trackbot> action-1592 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to switch role shouldn't say about mixed value mapping. -- due 2015-03-04 -- OPEN
16:54:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1592
16:54:59 <MichaelC> issue: Switch role and mixed value mapping questions
16:55:00 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-713 - Switch role and mixed value mapping questions.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/713/edit>.
16:55:11 <MichaelC> issue-713: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0117.html
16:55:11 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-713 Switch role and mixed value mapping questions.
16:55:20 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1592 with issue-713
16:55:20 <trackbot> action-1592 (switch role shouldn't say about mixed value mapping.) associated with issue-713.
16:58:34 <MichaelC> action-1606 due 2 weeks
16:58:34 <trackbot> Set action-1606 Create proposal to modify aria-valuemin, aria-valuemax, and aria-valuenow to have reasonable default values when they are missing, similar to HTML5 spec on <input type="range"> due date to 2015-06-11.
16:58:43 <MichaelC> close action-1598
16:58:44 <trackbot> Closed action-1598.
17:01:47 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
17:03:09 <MichaelC> present+ Michael_Cooper, James_Nurthen, Jon_Gunderson, Léonie_Watson, Matt_King
17:05:03 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/matt-action1505/aria/aria.html#aria-interactive
17:05:28 <clown> the above for mattking's aria-interactive edits
17:10:15 <MichaelC> chair: Michael_Cooper
17:10:20 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:14:31 <MichaelC> topic: FtF in summer
17:14:40 <MichaelC> HTML A11Y TF meeting in Spain
17:14:52 <MichaelC> enough PF people can´t go that we wouldn´t have quorum for an official meeting
17:14:59 <MichaelC> but people there anyways would like to meet informally
17:16:55 <MichaelC> Joanie, Léonie, Steve, possibly Bryan
17:17:27 <MichaelC> by Bryan probably not
17:19:19 <MichaelC> panels and groupy type stuff are the main interest
17:22:09 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:22:29 <MichaelC> Joseph might sit in remotely
17:26:20 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:15:32 <clown> clown has joined #aria
18:18:48 <joanie> asurkov:
18:18:51 <joanie> clown:
18:18:54 <joanie> let's move it here
18:18:59 <asurkov> sure
18:19:25 <joanie> but based on what clown just stated, I think I'll just paste the log into the tracker notes
18:19:30 <joanie> and we can discuss it next week
18:19:32 <clown> sure, joanie.
18:20:02 <joanie> clown: your last statement in the other channel
18:20:06 <asurkov> good idea
18:20:08 <joanie> I don't get it
18:20:27 <asurkov> personally I like it :)
18:20:36 <joanie> hold on
18:20:40 <joanie> you like which?
18:20:40 <clown> holding...
18:20:58 <joanie> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1592
18:21:07 <asurkov> that mixed value is treated as invalid value
18:21:09 <joanie> Has me asking a specific string substitution
18:21:18 <asurkov> or author error, that seems pretty much same with me
18:21:48 <clown> how is "not supported" different?
18:21:53 <clown> just wondering.
18:22:43 <joanie> btw
18:22:50 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-checked
18:22:58 <joanie> is where I lifted the switch text from
18:23:22 <joanie> so is the aria-checked state text ALSO wrong?
18:23:40 <clown> well, that says "not supported", which is what asurkov objected to, or so I thought.
18:23:51 <joanie> indeed
18:24:05 <joanie> but asurkov raised an issue about what is in switch
18:24:24 <joanie> so if it's a problem for switch then I assume it's a problem for aria-checked in general
18:24:33 <asurkov> joanie: aria-checked should be updated too
18:24:38 <clown> or, if it's not a problem for aria-checked in general ...
18:25:02 <asurkov> clown: aria-checked has phrase: The mixed value is not supported on radio, menuitemradio, switch or any element that inherits from these in the taxonomy, and user agents MUST treat a mixed value as equivalent to false for those roles.
18:25:30 <clown> right.
18:25:53 <joanie> so we can remove the "and user agents.... roles."
18:26:02 <joanie> or do we need different text?
18:28:15 <asurkov> it looks like it can be safely removed
18:28:29 <asurkov> since we have “Most inputs only support values of true and false, but the mixed value is supported by certain tri-state inputs”
18:29:52 <asurkov> I would extend “ or represents a group of other elements that have a mixture of checked and unchecked values (mixed)” by something like “if allowed by role taxonomy of the element it is set on”
18:33:01 <clown> joanie, asurkov, I don't think you can remove the "and user agents … roles"
18:33:12 <joanie> no?
18:33:19 <clown> I'll have to double check, but I think aria-checked is a required property for those roles.
18:33:34 <joanie> clown: huh?
18:33:42 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#radio
18:33:55 <clown> Look for "Required States and Properties"
18:34:00 <joanie> I thought user agent normative statements belonged in the Core AAM
18:34:00 <asurkov> but that’s basically a dupe what those role says
18:34:20 <asurkov> spec shouldn’t dupe itselef
18:35:17 <clown> radio buttons are check-able, correct?
18:35:24 <joanie> yes
18:36:02 <clown> the way you do that in ARIA, is by providing an aria-checked attribute for role="radio".
18:36:09 <joanie> right
18:36:10 <clown> That's the way the check-able is communicated.
18:36:22 <clown> that means aria-checked is required for radio buttons.
18:36:40 <joanie> why does that mean we have to keep the user agents MUST
18:36:42 <joanie> in the spec?
18:36:51 <joanie> http://fpaste.org/226643/
18:36:53 <clown> but, aria-checked='mixed' on radio buttons is incoherent.
18:36:55 <joanie> is what I'm suggesting
18:37:08 <joanie> so the spec says "cain't do that!"
18:37:19 <joanie> uaig says what user agents MUST do
18:37:23 <joanie> right?
18:37:38 <clown> right, but if the author does it by mistake, then it defaults to "false" for that role.
18:37:52 <joanie> right
18:37:58 <clown> and, yes, Core-AAM says how browsers should map it.
18:38:42 <joanie> clown: so what wording changes would you suggest to address asurkov's issue?
18:38:56 <joanie> if the diffs in the fpaste are not valid
18:40:04 <joanie> related aside, I wish we would break lines at 80 chars or so
18:40:05 <clown> I don't understand why the UA MUST is removed.
18:40:21 <joanie> because I thought that is what asurkov wanted
18:40:35 <joanie> asurkov: is that what you wanted or not?
18:40:48 <clown> I thought he wanted to use the word "invalid".
18:40:54 <asurkov> it looks unnecessary
18:40:57 <clown> as opposed to "not supported"
18:41:27 <asurkov> are we talk about aria-checked or switch?
18:41:29 <clown> how so.
18:42:49 <clown> asurkov:  good question.  What is the fpaste for?
18:43:00 <clown> ah.  it's role switch
18:43:03 <joanie> the fpaste is for both
18:43:23 <joanie> because we said "switch is wrong" AND "that text is in aria-checked too, that is where joanie grabbed it from"
18:43:34 <asurkov> I start from the point the spec shouldn’t dupe itselves, so if we say about aria-checked=mixed in switch role description then we don’t need to repeat that in aria-checked description. If we say that aria-checked=“mixed” value on role switch is invalid then we shouldn’t say about UA behavir more since later in the spec there’s a section that says how to handle author errors
18:43:39 <asurkov> does it make sense?
18:44:06 <joanie> then I'd move it out of checked and into each role, but that's just me
18:44:29 <clown> asurkov, I'd repeast things since readers don't alway cross reference like you  do.
18:44:35 <joanie> because authors might not read switch and then think "I'll go read aria-checked"
18:44:36 <clown> *repeat
18:44:56 <clown> sorry guys, I have to go and work on other stuff.
18:45:05 <clown> later.
18:45:17 <asurkov> ok, then I would prefer to add a reference than copy the wording
18:45:26 <asurkov> sure
18:45:29 <asurkov> see you
18:46:38 <asurkov> joanie: if we didn’t copy logic then we wouldn’t need to update many places :)
18:47:02 <joanie> then we can move it to each role where it's an exception
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18:47:10 <joanie> but lemme see what trev is talking about
18:47:15 <joanie> he's got a crazy bug
18:53:45 <asurkov> agree
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