IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-05-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:47:55 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/21-mobile-a11y-irc
14:47:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:47:57 [Zakim]
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14:47:59 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:47:59 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
14:48:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:48:00 [trackbot]
Date: 21 May 2015
14:48:23 [Kim]
chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:48:44 [Kim]
Agenda+ Best Practices - understandable
14:48:45 [Kim]
Agenda+ Feedback from WCAG
14:48:47 [Kim]
Agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, April 28
14:52:28 [Kim]
Regrets: Alan, David_McDonald, Henny_Swan, Mike_Shebanek
15:00:04 [Jan]
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15:00:59 [jeanne]
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15:01:07 [Zakim]
WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
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+Jeanne
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-Jeanne
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WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
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Attendees were Jeanne
15:03:47 [jon_avila]
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15:06:15 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
15:14:01 [jeanne]
[discussion of WebEx issues and WebEx Captcha
15:14:24 [jeanne]
Topic: Technique assignments
15:14:49 [jeanne]
Kathy: We are setting up a chart with the proposed techniques on them
15:15:10 [jeanne]
... we asked WCAG WG for feedback on the proposed Operable techniques
15:15:42 [jeanne]
... we need to set up concise wording for Perceivable and Understandable
15:16:06 [jeanne]
... they were sent to WCAG with insufficient context and numbering that was confusing the WCAG WG members
15:17:13 [jeanne]
... that has delayed the WCAG response
15:19:32 [jeanne]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_Feedback
15:24:19 [jeanne]
Topic: Understandable Technique
15:24:40 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Understandable_Techniques
15:25:00 [jeanne]
Kathy: I want to get the list of Technques that we want to create related to Understandable in the Mobile Accessibility Note
15:25:22 [jeanne]
... some of these are already tied to existing WCAG items
15:25:30 [jeanne]
... we could alter some existing ones
15:25:53 [jeanne]
... or we can propose new Techniques for mobile for Understandable
15:26:06 [Kim]
zakim take up item 1
15:26:09 [jeanne]
... Consistent layout - portrait or landscape
15:26:44 [jeanne]
Jan: We want to see the same layout for portrait and landscape?
15:26:52 [Kim]
zakim, take up next
15:26:52 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Best Practices - understandable" taken up [from Kim]
15:27:06 [Kim]
Kathy: consistency
15:27:06 [jeanne]
Kathy: You have to have consistency across pages,
15:27:23 [Kim]
Jan: so all pages should have similar layout
15:27:33 [jeanne]
Jan: All of the pages across your site when displayed in portrait should have consistency?
15:27:46 [Kim]
Kathy: but you don't have to have consistency between a portrait or landscape mode for example
15:27:57 [Kim]
okay
15:28:12 [jeanne]
s/okay//
15:28:58 [jeanne]
Jan: So are we waiving the requirement between consistent groups as long as it is consistent within the group?
15:29:28 [jeanne]
Jon: That is consistent with current interpretation because the user initiates a change from portrait to landscape.
15:30:09 [jeanne]
... I think that would best go in an Understanding document about portrait vs landscape
15:30:24 [jeanne]
Kathy: agrees
15:30:50 [Jan]
Here's the relevant tech: http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/G61
15:31:09 [jeanne]
Jan: It could be included as a note in the existing Technique -- including info on changing landscape and portrait.
15:33:28 [jeanne]
Positioning Page Elements before the Scroll
15:34:42 [jeanne]
Jeanne: I would prefer to drop this because scrolling has become a direction of modern web design, rather than including all important elements cluttering the initial load. Unless it is a huge accessibility issue, I would prefer not to use it.
15:35:25 [jeanne]
Jan: I agree, the ubiquitous hamberger control is always above the fold.
15:36:05 [jeanne]
Kim: I don't use voice control on the phone. It is important to see the important elements above the scroll in desktop
15:36:23 [jeanne]
... we aren't there with controlling a mobile phone with speech, so I don't have a strong opinion
15:36:30 [Kathy]
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15:37:24 [jeanne]
... if the gap between putting words on the screen and voice control on mobile closes, then it may be an issue. I would prefer not to lock this down.
15:38:22 [jeanne]
Jon: I think it belongs more in Operable.
15:38:58 [jeanne]
Jeanne: I see long term problems of increasing clutter in above the scroll, where designers are trying to de-clutter the initial load
15:39:07 [jeanne]
Kim: It seems more perscriptive
15:39:18 [jeanne]
Kathy: SHould we put this under Navigation?
15:39:41 [jeanne]
Jon: Would this help us meet a success criteria under Operable? I don't see it.
15:39:59 [jeanne]
Kathy: Maybe we leave it in the Note and not have any Best PRactices or Techniques.
15:40:37 [jeanne]
http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/#positioning-important-page-elements-before-the-page-scroll
15:42:10 [jeanne]
Jeanne: Maybe we should add a sentence to say that excessive clutter is detrimental to users, so if there are many important objects, make it clear that there is more information if the user scrolls down.
15:43:17 [jeanne]
Kathy: If you know where something is on the screen, it is easy to get to it. As soon as you start scrolling, you lose certainty to where things are, rather than at some random scroll point.
15:43:41 [jeanne]
... there is greater usability and understanding with the initial loading screen.
15:44:31 [jeanne]
Jan: I think we can just say it. I don't think it rises to the level of Technique or Best Practice.
15:44:47 [jeanne]
Kathy: There isn't research to back this. It is just an observation.
15:45:11 [jeanne]
Jan: Clutter doesn't come under WCAG.
15:45:28 [jeanne]
Kathy: Maybe it doesn't belong in the Note
15:46:05 [jeanne]
Jan: Maybe it goes with navigation and consistency of control because it is hard to find things when there is a lot of clutter in the page.
15:47:10 [jeanne]
Jeanne: Maybe we should contact the Cognitive Accessibility Task Force and see if they have identified information that should be in this section.
15:47:42 [jeanne]
Kathy: would someone volunteer to take an action item to contact Cognative Accessibility TF?
15:49:23 [jeanne]
Jon: I was looking under Predictability, and this could be a good location for it.
15:50:09 [jeanne]
... if we contact CogoTF, we can ask this
15:51:08 [jeanne]
action: Jon to reach out to Cognative Accessibility Task Force and ask for their input on Understandable section of Note and specifically on positioning important elements above the scroll.
15:51:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-31 - Reach out to cognative accessibility task force and ask for their input on understandable section of note and specifically on positioning important elements above the scroll. [on Jonathan Avila - due 2015-05-28].
15:51:28 [jeanne]
Grouping Operable Elements
15:52:26 [jeanne]
Kim: It is important that they follow the standard keyboard shortcutes, but that probably belongs with Keyboard section
15:52:53 [jeanne]
Provide clear indication that elements are actionable
15:53:06 [jeanne]
Kathy: We have Techniques for this.
15:54:49 [jeanne]
Jan: Often there is no need for this. If people use the standard elements, there is not a problem. If you break it, you have to fix it.
15:55:39 [jeanne]
Kathy: C15, G165 using default focus indicator
15:55:47 [jeanne]
... G195
15:56:13 [jeanne]
... G149
15:57:16 [jeanne]
Jon: There are aimed at visible focus. What we are saying is that if you are using a touchscreen, you don't know if it is actionable. So we are taking it a step further.
15:57:33 [jeanne]
Jeanne: agrees
15:58:14 [jeanne]
Jan: we have to make sure we don't ask people to have to customize. When iOS changed to the flat format, it caused problems, but that is iOS' problem to solve, not everyone elses.
15:58:29 [jeanne]
Kathy: Do we have something in UAAG.
15:58:40 [jeanne]
Jan: Yes, from the web perspective
15:59:15 [jeanne]
Kathy: On mobile, often we have no idea that objects are actionable. We have a problem of knowing what is actionable, and how to interact with it.
15:59:34 [jeanne]
Jan: If it is a custom object, then you need to provide affordances
16:00:00 [jeanne]
... I don't wnat to see losing the consistency that platforms provide in order to provide affordances
16:00:32 [jeanne]
Kathy: Button shapes are a good example of how you can change that in the OS and have it change the application.
16:00:43 [jeanne]
... do we want a technique for Custom Controls?
16:01:28 [jon_avila]
* have to jump off to another call
16:01:29 [jeanne]
Jan: I think so. It is parallel with WCAG 4.1.2 - name, role, value. You can make your own, but it is on you to make it accessible.
16:01:59 [jeanne]
Jan: The affordances are on you.
16:02:18 [jeanne]
Kathy: Let's pick this up on the next call. It goes with the next section as well. Custom controls.
16:02:28 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/21-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
16:02:43 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:03:14 [jeanne]
present+ Jan, Kathy, Kim, Jon
16:03:19 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/21-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
17:21:01 [jeanne]
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