IRC log of aapi on 2015-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:42:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:42:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-irc
18:42:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs member
18:42:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #aapi
18:42:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:42:58 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
18:42:59 [trackbot]
Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:42:59 [trackbot]
Date: 19 May 2015
18:44:02 [clown]
chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:44:15 [clown]
present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:44:20 [clown]
agenda: this
18:44:27 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests.
18:44:34 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1542: (Joanie) Verify the commit for mozilla bug 1013584 and report the atk role to Joseph.
18:44:41 [clown]
agneda+ ISSUE-635: (Joseph) AAPI mappings for role rowgroup.
18:44:54 [clown]
agenda+ ISSUE-635: (Joseph) AAPI mappings for role rowgroup.
18:45:01 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1544: (Cynthia) Document rowgroup mappings for ie 11 for both uia express and uia
18:45:09 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1546: (David) Make sure the rowgroup mapping for MSAA/IA2 is accurate.
18:45:17 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1547: (Rich) Update test test cases involving rowgroup to ensure they are included within a grid container and to ensure that the expected result matches the new mappings.
18:45:24 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1620: (Cynthia) Propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder.
18:45:31 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1623: (Joseph) Confirm with James Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue.
18:45:37 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1621: (Joseph) Ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec.
18:45:43 [clown]
agenda+ ACTION-1585: (Cynthia) Add to the section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of uia.
18:45:49 [clown]
agenda+ Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23)
18:45:56 [clown]
agenda+ be done.
19:00:14 [joanie]
present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:02:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:03:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
found it
19:03:23 [clown]
rich: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20150519T15&p1=250&ah=1
19:05:02 [joanie]
scribe: joanie
19:05:43 [bgaraventa1979]
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19:06:25 [bgaraventa1979]
present+Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:57 [bgaraventa1979]
present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:18 [joanie]
Zakim, take up item 1
19:07:18 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests." taken up [from clown]
19:07:24 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present + Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:07:28 [clown]
action-1533?
19:07:28 [trackbot]
action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-06-02 -- OPEN
19:07:28 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
19:07:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:08:31 [clown]
scribenick:
19:08:37 [clown]
scribenick: clown
19:09:04 [clown]
JD: I postponed and updated the action to the beginning of June.
19:09:27 [clown]
JD: I came up with a quick-and-dirty pyatspi script, it does the job.
19:09:37 [clown]
JD: In Selenium.
19:09:47 [clown]
JD: I can attempt to port it to JavaScript.
19:11:03 [clown]
JD: I put a note about this in the action.
19:11:17 [clown]
JD: It does a tree dive to get the element ID.
19:11:24 [clown]
JD: I suspect all the platforms expose that.
19:11:45 [clown]
JD: The tree dive is on the a11 tree.
19:11:55 [clown]
s/a11 tree/a11y tree/
19:12:37 [clown]
RS: Can we see the code?
19:12:47 [clown]
JS: How about a pastebin?
19:16:02 [clown]
<discussion of the code>
19:16:10 [clown]
RS: Does it do the API mapping test?
19:16:28 [clown]
JD: Look at the assertion at line 93, 94, 95.
19:17:54 [clown]
JS: It is using the pyatspi library to get info straight out of AT-SPI
19:18:16 [clown]
JD: Each language would have to implement things like getName(), getDescription(), and so on.
19:18:54 [clown]
JD: For example, one could do something similar for IA2.
19:19:21 [clown]
CS: That's what my dev was doing. It wasn't that hard.
19:19:39 [clown]
RS: It would be good if the ERT group to do this.
19:20:03 [clown]
JD: I put this in WebDriver as a proof of concept.
19:20:18 [clown]
action-1533?
19:20:18 [trackbot]
action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-06-02 -- OPEN
19:20:18 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
19:21:10 [clown]
CS: My goal was to somehow get these concepts into webdriver.
19:21:50 [clown]
RS: I'm not sure there are enough resources in the webdriver group.
19:22:27 [clown]
RS: Although, I don't really care how it gets done. Let whomever can do it, go ahead.
19:22:46 [clown]
CS: I need to talk to someone about how to contribute.
19:22:59 [clown]
CS: But, this kind of a11y testing is just testing.
19:23:31 [clown]
RS: Eventually, I would like a cross platform API for all of this.
19:24:02 [clown]
JD: I just wanted to mention that we don't need a test harness as W3C already has that.
19:24:08 [clown]
JD: We just need some glue code.
19:24:14 [joanie]
scribe: joanie
19:24:22 [joanie]
RS: We have to write the test cases.
19:24:51 [joanie]
RS: Jon has coding skills and students who could work on this.
19:25:12 [joanie]
RS: But if ERT could work on automating our tests, let them go do it.
19:25:22 [joanie]
RS: And when they have issues, they could report them to us.
19:25:46 [joanie]
RS: I would rather us not have to stop, create all the tests, we don't want to do manual testing, etc.
19:26:00 [joanie]
RS: Why not leverage these folks and then contribute the result to WebDriver.
19:26:09 [joanie]
CS: Maybe. But the code is pretty small.
19:26:19 [joanie]
CS: The harness code is easy.
19:26:32 [joanie]
CS: Translating the test cases into the syntax is easy, but time consuming.
19:26:39 [joanie]
CS: Do we need ERT for that?
19:26:58 [joanie]
CS: The other piece is commands for accessibility APIs. That's a bit more work.
19:27:19 [joanie]
CS: What Joanie just did and what my dev did, and some students writing test cases, is what I think we should do.
19:27:36 [joanie]
RS: We potentially could do that, but some group needs to do the work.
19:27:45 [joanie]
CS: Jon's students did IE testing.
19:27:54 [joanie]
CS: And I want to keep the number of groups small.
19:28:24 [joanie]
RS: I wrote a draft charter for this group. Their job would be to create the automated testing and unified accessibility API testing.
19:28:54 [joanie]
CS: I don't know if we need a group to do this.
19:29:33 [joanie]
RS: I've been told WebDriver isn't far off the ground.
19:29:47 [joanie]
CS: Do we expect to start these tests next week?
19:29:55 [joanie]
RS: No. Probably August should be fine.
19:30:02 [joanie]
CS: I was looking at doing this late in the summer.
19:30:21 [joanie]
CS: Someone needs to port the existing ARIA tests and port them. Also create new tests for 1.1.
19:30:33 [joanie]
CS: It's a lot of typing, but not that hard.
19:30:57 [joanie]
CS: The 1.0 ARIA files already existed. So it's just the additional features and any changes in 1.1.
19:31:09 [joanie]
CS: The bulk of the work is porting.
19:32:01 [joanie]
present+ Cynthia_Shelly
19:34:35 [clown]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/25
19:34:42 [joanie]
CS: It sounds like a have a practical way forward. I'll look at the Microsoft work going into WebDriver.
19:34:54 [joanie]
CS: Joanie can look at IA2 and ATSPI2
19:35:09 [joanie]
JS: The URL above is the ARIA 1.1 test plan.
19:35:21 [joanie]
JS: So is this an issue?
19:35:45 [clown]
issue: Automated testing using WebDriver for ARIA 1.1
19:35:45 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-710 - Automated testing using webdriver for aria 1.1. Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/710/edit>.
19:36:34 [janina]
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19:36:59 [clown]
issue-710?
19:37:00 [trackbot]
issue-710 -- Automated testing using WebDr8ver for ARIA 1.1 -- open
19:37:00 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/710
19:37:18 [clown]
issue-710?
19:37:18 [trackbot]
issue-710 -- Automated testing using WebDriver for ARIA 1.1 -- open
19:37:18 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/710
19:38:33 [clown]
action: Joanie hooked up ATK/AT-SPI to webDriver
19:38:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1637 - Hooked up atk/at-spi to webdriver [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-05-26].
19:38:49 [clown]
action-1637?
19:38:49 [trackbot]
action-1637 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Hooked up atk/at-spi to webdriver -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:38:49 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1637
19:39:45 [clown]
action: Cynthia to take the concept of a11y testiing in WebDriver to the WebDriver group.
19:39:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1638 - Take the concept of a11y testiing in webdriver to the webdriver group. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-05-26].
19:39:49 [clown]
action-1638?
19:39:49 [trackbot]
action-1638 -- Cynthia Shelly to Take the concept of a11y testiing in webdriver to the webdriver group. -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:39:49 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1638
19:41:11 [clown]
action: Cynthia to implement WebDriver a11y testing for UIA
19:41:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1639 - Implement webdriver a11y testing for uia [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-05-26].
19:41:19 [clown]
action-1639?
19:41:19 [trackbot]
action-1639 -- Cynthia Shelly to Implement webdriver a11y testing for uia -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:41:19 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1639
19:43:01 [clown]
trackbot, associate action-1639 with issue-710
19:43:01 [trackbot]
action-1639 (Implement webdriver a11y testing for uia) associated with issue-710.
19:49:33 [clown]
action: Rich to send a note to James Craig about test automation with WebDriver
19:49:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1640 - Send a note to james craig about test automation with webdriver [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-05-26].
19:49:39 [clown]
action-1640?
19:49:39 [trackbot]
action-1640 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Send a note to james craig about test automation with webdriver -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:49:39 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1640
19:50:19 [clown]
action-1640?
19:50:19 [trackbot]
action-1640 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Send a note to James Craig about test automation with WebDriver -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:50:19 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1640
19:54:11 [joanie]
Zakim, take up item 9
19:54:11 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "ACTION-1621: (Joseph) Ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec." taken up [from clown]
19:54:22 [clown]
action-1621?
19:54:22 [trackbot]
action-1621 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec. -- due 2015-05-19 -- OPEN
19:54:22 [trackbot]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1621
19:54:44 [joanie]
CS: The new browser Edge is for UIA; not UIA Express.
19:55:17 [joanie]
CS: IE 11 will continue to ship for the foreseeable future as a backwards-compatibility browser and will still be UIA Express.
19:55:42 [joanie]
RS: So ARIA 1.1 might not be available in IE 11.
19:56:00 [joanie]
CS: IE 11 will remain the way it is now.
19:56:51 [joanie]
RS: Content injection using CSS, typically the only way you can get at that is via an API mapping.
19:57:07 [joanie]
RS: So ATs will be accessing content via the DOM.
19:57:37 [joanie]
RS: So we have a non-interoperable situation, some is only available via APIs and other only available via the DOM.
19:57:47 [joanie]
CS: Only on that platform, but yes.
19:58:00 [joanie]
RS: And we don't know when everyone will migrate to Edge.
19:58:17 [joanie]
CS: If they upgrade to Windows 10, they'll have both.
19:58:34 [joanie]
s/both/both IE and Edge/
19:58:47 [clown]
proposed resolution - Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1.
19:59:32 [joanie]
CS: I think that makes sense, but there may be places where what's in the document doesn't align with what has been implemented in IE.
19:59:41 [joanie]
CS: But the column will stay there.
19:59:58 [clown]
resolution: Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1, with potential bug fixes.
20:00:14 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:00:51 [clown]
RESOLUTION: Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1, with potential bug fixes.
20:00:55 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:02:25 [joanie]
s/RESOLUTION:/RESOLVED:/
20:02:30 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:02:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:03:25 [joanie]
Zakim, part
20:03:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aapi
20:03:45 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:04:45 [joanie]
RESOLVED: Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1, with potential bug fixes.
20:04:48 [joanie]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:04:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:06:01 [joanie]
RRSAgent, stop
20:06:35 [clown]
trackbot, close action-1621
20:06:35 [trackbot]
Closed action-1621.
20:07:04 [joanie]
RRSAgent, stop