00:03:21 Zakim has left #eo 03:39:18 shawn has joined #eo 14:21:51 RRSAgent has joined #eo 14:21:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-irc 14:21:53 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:21:53 Zakim has joined #eo 14:21:55 Zakim, this will be 3694 14:21:55 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:21:56 Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference 14:21:56 Date: 14 May 2015 14:22:20 Sharron has joined #eo 14:23:09 Attending: Wayne, Wilco, Eric, Howard, 14:23:30 ...James Green, Sharron, Shadi 14:23:48 Scribe: Sharron 14:24:03 Chair: Sharron 14:25:13 Eric: We will prioritize the comments from yesterday 14:26:15 Wayne: One issue is to provide something for both audiences - those who are looking top down to the WCAG and drill down and others where people are just looking for code to solve the proble. 14:26:56 Eric: Yes, and the question is can we really put those two things into one tool 14:27:09 ...one is to find the WCAG techniques 14:27:23 ...the other is to solve a specific problem 14:27:35 Shadi: What is the use case for the first? 14:28:06 Wayne: You get an audit report and say you ahve a violation of 1.3.1 14:28:24 Shadi: We have the possibility to re-sort solutions for people 14:28:46 ...like putting the color and contrast issues together 14:28:58 ...wilco, when you audit...? 14:29:31 Wilco: I tend to know what I am looking for and go right to techniques, QuickRef as we see it now is too big a document 14:29:52 ...who are we doing this for 14:30:10 Shadi: Primary is authors but we want to provide some resources for evaluators as well 14:31:26 Wilco: As an auditor, I just start with the WCAG2 and search the page 14:32:00 Wayne: I go to ToC of WCAG, jump to criteria, take a snippet of code and send it to the person I am communicating with 14:32:16 1+ 14:32:19 s/1+/ 14:32:20 Shadi: You are using WCAG becasue there is ToC? 14:32:21 q+ 14:32:28 Wayne: Yes 14:32:48 Wilco: A bit different for me. I will find that in more places 14:33:39 James: A couple of examples , we sort by tool, (showed internal test doc) 14:35:30 ...have abstracted WCAG into things that developers at VISA will do. Some match one to one to WCAG and others map many to one. For each role, there are different requirements, sorted by recommended test tool. 14:36:11 ...have grouped them for efficiency to what you can do with the same tool 14:37:19 ...so we resorted all in WCAG to make an efficient test workflow. 14:40:38 ...from testers point of view, we sorted first by component and next by tools. We sliced and diced all the WCAG requirements. (Example modal window - we put all the reuirements in one place) 14:41:29 Wilco: So your solution is to let QA use AT rahter than look at requirements? 14:41:41 James: And other tools as well. 14:42:08 ...but yes, functional testing of the whole thing with a screen reader of their choice. 14:43:04 Shadi: Since you are verifying that the authoring process (that you have control of) has made sense 14:43:26 Eric: The authoring requirements, part of what James showed us, is what people are looking for 14:44:17 James: They do not expect to become accessibility experts, so we spoon feed them and have gotten good results - modal windows improved 800% 14:45:22 Wayne: Basic organization of Easy Checks was like that, maybe now we need a Complex Checks 14:48:06 Eric: We always did more informal testing and focus on the things that are wrong right off the bat. That is a common approach. 14:48:31 ack me 14:49:12 ...so when violations are found, you can refer to Techniques that address that violation. 14:50:32 ...the multipage way of "here is the component requirement, and here is the related resource and test" Not sure we can do it here, but perhpas useful for the componenets library. May not want to do it here. 14:50:54 Wayne: I am not sure I agree. The one part that could be useful is the sorting 14:51:01 James: and you could filter by topic 14:51:41 Eric: I am not sure that we need filters at all. Filter by Level but otehrwise, could provide a search function rather than a filter 14:52:01 ...the way it is implemented now, people don't find them, there is a disconnect. 14:55:26 ... an approach I am putting forward is to offer choice of issues...images, tables, forms, etc and for something like video, offer the relevant part of 1.1.1 and hide the other parts. 14:56:54 Shadi: We are not as fine grained as the reource that James shared and have the Guidelines that will almost always show up. 14:56:54 q+ wilco 14:57:03 ack wilco 14:57:37 Wilco: You are suggesting a structure that lies above the SCs? and maybe tags would work better than that structure 14:58:22 ...if you have the ability to tag (like a tag cloud) 14:58:27 James: a faceted search 14:59:58 Eric: Could be useful to identify gaps and places where we may need an extension. 15:00:35 Wilco: If you did this would you also hide the techniques that are irrelevant? 15:00:48 Eric: yes 15:01:34 James: And that is similar to the tool we built, by allowing developers to get just what they need when they need it. I think tags would be a great way to do that 15:02:41 ...and the direct reference to WCAG is not important to the developers, for analysts maybe. But developers want to find both SC and techniques as well as a working example that they can use. 15:03:57 Shadi: And very soon we will begin working on the component library where we send people to examples out in the real world, such as an accessible carousel widget, etc 15:05:05 Wayne: The concept is to identify a collection of pathways into the WCAG database, what are fundamental access paths and get those down as much as possible. 15:05:50 Shadi: Three integrated resources, the tutorials, the QuickRef, and the compnenets library that are very well integrated with each other. 15:11:24 Eric: So we need to narrow the focus and direct people to the advice they need rather than try to give people all the advice all the time. 15:12:14 ...so perhaps we leae the current quick ref and call this a new tool and give another name. 15:13:03 s/leae/leave 15:13:40 s/compnenets/components 15:15:50 Shadi: What is the issue? 15:16:32 Eric: We have the current organization of the QuickRef. Using a taggin structure, we would be trying to make a datbase from prose, would be likely to fail. 15:18:51 q+ James 15:19:06 ack James 15:19:37 James: Is it possible to reorder the techniques to let users who are scanning to get where they need to be fast 15:22:17 Present: +Brent 15:31:10 Things we want: natural language search 15:32:16 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:32:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 15:32:32 q+ 15:32:37 Shadi: What I understand is we have a set of feature tags, when I select one of them the info on the page gets resorted to match the slelected tag. Example, I select table, I get the SCs that apply. Others are still available but under collapsed condition. 15:33:04 Eric: I would like to remove the other SCs and will check on that with WCAG 15:33:11 Sharron: +1 15:33:38 Shadi: But someway needed to say these may not be a complete list of applicable SCs 15:33:46 ack me 15:34:49 Howard: Initial screen has the features list (searhable by tags) and do we also leave users the way to search by SCs? 15:35:35 ...because another way to search is hierarchical, by way of the organziational tree. Will people still be able to search that way? 15:35:52 Eric: My first reaction is no, since we have other docs that do that. 15:38:13 ...I have a good brainstorm for a new concept and can go in and craft a new approach. 15:44:28 Shadi: Reminder that we have on the BAD to have the SCs with text collapsed. A work around, not to change the wording but to leave them hidden and reduce text. 15:46:20 ...also heard the Techniques would be hidden or suppressed other than the relevant one. Default view should remove irrelvant text 15:47:21 ...also a suggestion for priority sorting. That may be something not so easy to do. 15:47:43 Eric: Someone needs to do that 15:48:10 ...getting the data is the issue 15:53:02 Topic: WCAG-EM Report Tool 15:57:04 Shadi: To summarize – we need a tool with tags that then reveals the applicable success criteria and techniques. We might have collapsable SCs and techniques. Also we might have weighted tags that allows us to prioritize certain SCs/techniques for certain tags. 15:57:07 Wilco: First big problem that we identified was that people don't know what it is for. Talked about a series of diagrams or animation. Would like to put that in a pop-up or something to introduce? 15:57:14 ...set a cookie. 16:00:04 Shadi: What about flip the title...put report Generator in title rather than Tool 16:00:25 Eric: Expectation was that the tool would do the test or at least link to the testing tool 16:00:35 Shadi: We also need a kind of API to get to current WCAG 2.0 content, would be useful for the Accessibility Support DB, the Report Tool and the new Quickref. 16:00:59 Shadi: Priority was to clarify the purpose of the tool...a helper, a support, 16:01:14 Howard: ...an aid 16:01:55 Wilco: Could take the report generator itself out of here and make this an evaulation data collector. 16:02:17 ...how about Evaluation Assistant 16:03:18 Shadi: What about ideas for content? 16:03:37 Eric: Move How tool works up, everyone clicked on that first 16:04:11 Sharron: Take links away from paragraph, list as related resources, etc 16:04:57 Howard: Instead of two entry paragraphs, have heading What This Tool Does 16:05:19 Eric: And How this Tool Works is really Technical Details 16:06:32 ...and the animation could open it for you 16:06:46 Howard: But that is what keeps people from reading it 16:06:56 ...it is the interaction that makes them read it 16:07:41 Shadi: Look at heading titles as well 16:09:00 ...Define Scope: we saw lots of confusion on this page. 16:09:07 Wilco: PLaceholder names? 16:09:54 Eric: Not placeholders, actaul choices 16:10:13 s/actaul/actual 16:11:39 Shadi: A short video maybe? 16:12:05 Howard: That is a good idea but I still like the notion of placeholder text 16:12:18 ...examples will be great. 16:13:02 Brent has joined #eo 16:13:46 Eric: Text explanations are good, mybe we could put that as placeholder text. 16:14:33 i/Topic:/[Wayne, James leaving]/ 16:15:24 Shadi: Titles can be improved, wither posed as a question or make the instructional. And we should avoid jargon like "accessibility support" in the titles. In fo in text box explanations should be clarified. 16:16:21 ...and use the white space for some instructions. 16:17:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:17:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:17:53 Wilco: Don't want to change the language away from WCAG usage for those who ARE familiar 16:18:47 ...no format required for input. 16:19:12 s/Attending: Wayne, Wilco, Eric, Howard,/Present: Wayne, Wilco, Eric, Howard, James_Green, Sharron, Shadi 16:19:21 s/...James Green, Sharron, Shadi/ 16:19:49 s/Present: +Brent/present+ Brent 16:21:22 i/Things we want/[Brent arrives]/ 16:21:32 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:21:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:21:58 Shadi: In Step 1, we have asked for web site name, so by Step 5, the default for Report title is "Report for [website name]" and make it edtable so it can be changed if needed 16:22:02 Regrets: Shawn, Kevin, Anna_Belle 16:22:45 s/PLace/Place 16:23:25 Howard: General nav question was that they did not see "Save" option 16:24:27 Shadi: Step 2 "web technologies relied upon" was an issue. Drop down function is erratic 16:26:02 ...prefill of spec address is not working either. 16:26:50 Wilco: I don't find this useful at all 16:28:43 Shadi: Have to show that the evaluator is awaqre of all the technologies that were used 16:34:25 Howard: Once they have provided the URL can we autocheck what technologies are being used 16:35:06 i|Topic:|Shadi: To summarize – we need a tool with tags that then reveals the applicable success criteria and techniques. We might have collapsable SCs and techniques. Also we might have weighted tags that allows us to prioritize certain SCs/techniques for certain tags.| 16:35:32 i|Topic:|Shadi: We also need a kind of API to get to current WCAG 2.0 content, would be useful for the Accessibility Support DB, the Report Tool and the new Quickref. 16:35:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:35:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:36:15 Wilco: Likely not in this version. I suggest to replace scope with widget to place URL and different mechanisms to define scope. 16:36:54 ...have main domain and can add rules that include or exclude crtain parts 16:37:41 Shadi: But WCAG-EM does not use that methodology 16:38:32 s|Shadi: To summarize – we need a tool with tags that then reveals the applicable success criteria and techniques. We might have collapsable SCs and techniques. Also we might have weighted tags that allows us to prioritize certain SCs/techniques for certain tags.| 16:38:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:38:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:38:55 s|Shadi: We also need a kind of API to get to current WCAG 2.0 content, would be useful for the Accessibility Support DB, the Report Tool and the new Quickref.| 16:39:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:39:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:41:00 i/We will prioritize/Topic: Quickref Findings 16:41:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:41:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:42:21 Shadi: I have seen examples where you fill in text box, a "helper" that helps you decide the proper scope. 16:42:34 Eric: What do you want to test? 16:44:06 s/ahve/have/ 16:46:12 s/Things we want: natural language search/… Things we want: natural language search/ 16:46:15 s/ahve/have/ 16:46:18 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:46:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:49:05 Eric: By default when you enter Name of website and URL, it will by default fill in "all web content of the public website located at [domain.org/example] 16:49:51 ...and should say "Scope of evaluation" rather than "scope of website" 16:52:34 s|s/ahve/have/| 16:52:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:52:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html yatil 16:56:04 Wilco: On step 3, it was suggested that short names prepopulated with items that were listed in essential functionality 16:57:16 Brent: Notes from exploration (remove optional) then list a variety of web page types, more instructional or question format 16:57:30 ...will feel more like a journal 16:59:19 Wilco: I don't take notes either and pick the sample while I am exploring 17:00:46 Eric: Make more active...something like "Explore the website and decide what you want to evaluate. In the next step you will take a sample. If you want to take notes here is field to do that." 17:01:14 ...I just now understood the web tech relied on, they are in the wrong order 17:01:43 ...if I want to test the payment system, I will look for the technology underneath it. 17:02:02 Brent: Agree the order would be better if web tech was later in the order 17:04:05 Shadi: Three options: first is to keep what we have and reorder, make clear with more spacing. Second: Remove exploration notes. Third: Combine steps 2 and 3 17:04:26 Sharron: Option 1 17:06:42 Wilco: I agree, there is use case for it 17:08:29 Brent: Another idea, people are hung up on explore and then something to do right away. I like the idea of moving the web tech info to the select sample page. 17:09:29 ...then a bulleted list of what you should look for, can use these notes if needed, then get rid of the distraction and emphasize that they should be exploring 17:10:21 Wilco: A way to approach that is to have a big button to take you there 17:10:45 ...take you to the website to get there and explore. 17:12:07 Eric: Give very explicit direction, succint and focused - now go to the website, look for technologies, functionalities, page types, etc. Then you will come back here and enter you sample slection. 17:12:48 Brent: Maybe a checkbox that says, I have done that, I have explored for these things 17:13:21 Shadi: One implicit things about the fact that we skip over paragrpahs 17:14:26 Eric: Tool assumes that people more or less know WCAG-EM, must let people know that they need to do this to achieve that. 17:14:46 Brent: In this Step, you will... 17:15:53 Shadi: Name and address order need to flip in Selected Web Page Sample 17:17:05 ...step 4 is too complex 17:18:00 trackbot, end meeting 17:18:00 Zakim, list attendees 17:18:00 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 17:18:08 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:18:08 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-eo-minutes.html trackbot 17:18:09 RRSAgent, bye 17:18:09 I see no action items