14:30:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:30:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/12-wai-wcag-irc
14:30:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:30:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:30:18 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 30 minutes
14:30:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:30:19 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2015
14:30:34 <Kenny> zakim, agenda?
14:30:34 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:30:35 <Zakim> 1. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/5thMay2015/ [from Kenny]
14:30:35 <Zakim> 2. review and feedback on Issue Sorting https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ [from Kenny]
14:30:35 <Zakim> 3. new member [from AWK]
14:30:55 <Kenny> zakim, clear agenda
14:30:55 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:31:03 <Kenny> zakim, agenda?
14:31:03 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:32:23 <Kenny> agenda+ WebEx pilot and introduction
14:32:42 <Kenny> agenda+  Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/
14:33:02 <Kenny> agenda+  Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted
14:33:26 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #wai-wcag
14:34:40 <Joshue> trackbot, start meeting
14:34:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:34:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:34:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
14:34:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:34:45 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2015
14:34:53 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
14:34:53 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:34:54 <Zakim> 1. WebEx pilot and introduction [from Kenny]
14:34:54 <Zakim> 2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/ [from Kenny]
14:34:54 <Zakim> 3. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
14:35:15 <Joshue> Chair: Josh
14:42:44 <laura> laura has joined #wai-wcag
14:49:53 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #wai-wcag
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14:52:18 <AWK> zakim, agenda?
14:52:18 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:52:19 <Zakim> 1. WebEx pilot and introduction [from Kenny]
14:52:19 <Zakim> 2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/ [from Kenny]
14:52:19 <Zakim> 3. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
14:52:30 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:53:21 <AWK> Meeting WebEx link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m064eab3e5485b640231a7fe56dc4785c
14:56:46 <AWK> Present+ Joshue, AWK, Michael_Cooper, Dan_Frank
14:57:27 <adam_solomon> adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:33 <AWK> Present+ Marc_Johlic
14:58:42 <AWK> Zakim, who is present?
14:58:42 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, AWK.
14:58:50 <AWK> Zakim, who is here?
14:58:50 <Zakim> apparently WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended, AWK
14:58:51 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see adam_solomon, AWK, Makoto, laura, Joshue, RRSAgent, MichaelC, Zakim, Kenny, trackbot
14:59:00 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #wai-wcag
14:59:56 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
14:59:56 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:59:57 <Zakim> 1. WebEx pilot and introduction [from Kenny]
14:59:57 <Zakim> 2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/ [from Kenny]
14:59:57 <Zakim> 3. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
15:00:58 <AWK> Just a reminder that we are not joining with the regular number but are using WebEx
15:01:13 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
15:01:18 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
15:01:19 <Zakim> Attendees were
15:01:38 <David> David has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:57 <David> just finishing an IAAP call
15:02:43 <cstrobbe> cstrobbe has joined #wai-wcag
15:04:11 <laura> Present+ Laura_Carlson
15:04:58 <Joshue> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:05:06 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
15:05:26 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
15:05:33 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald
15:05:35 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:05:36 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
15:05:36 <Zakim> Attendees were David_MacDonald
15:05:41 <AWK_> AWK_ has joined #wai-wcag
15:06:05 <David> eeek.... forgot.... we're on webcast.... let me scramble
15:06:08 <marcjohlic> (https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m064eab3e5485b640231a7fe56dc4785c)
15:06:21 <Joshue> <https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m064eab3e5485b640231a7fe56dc4785c>
15:06:27 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
15:06:30 <marcjohlic> Meeting number:            642 418 206
15:09:21 <Kathy> Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:10:18 <jon_avila> awk: will use IRC for chat and sharing links
15:10:23 <AWK__> AWK__ has joined #wai-wcag
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15:10:58 <AWK__> Zakim, agenda?
15:10:58 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:10:59 <Zakim> 1. WebEx pilot and introduction [from Kenny]
15:10:59 <Zakim> 2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/ [from Kenny]
15:10:59 <Zakim> 3. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
15:12:18 <David> i'm talking can anybody heaqr me?
15:12:45 <MoeKraft> can't hear you
15:13:03 <MoeKraft> Try WebEx #Join by phone +1-617-324-0000 US Toll Number   Access code: 642 418 206
15:13:09 <David> urrrgh... i hear everyone perfect but can't be heard
15:13:58 <jon_avila> kw: is it possible to share IRC client?
15:14:35 <David> I can hear you
15:14:55 <David> ok
15:15:38 <jon_avila> +1 to the annoying flashing Cisco WebEx taskbar item
15:16:29 <jon_avila> *Likely flashing in the not allowed threshold
15:17:12 <Joshue> zakim, agenda?
15:17:12 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
15:17:13 <Zakim> 1. WebEx pilot and introduction [from Kenny]
15:17:13 <Zakim> 2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/ [from Kenny]
15:17:13 <Zakim> 3. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
15:17:18 <cstrobbe> zakim, when is your retirement?
15:17:18 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, cstrobbe.
15:18:03 <AWK__> Zakim, close item 1
15:18:03 <Zakim> agendum 1, WebEx pilot and introduction, closed
15:18:04 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:18:04 <Zakim> 2. Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/ [from Kenny]
15:18:22 <AWK__> Zakim, take up item 2
15:18:22 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20150512Misc/" taken up [from Kenny]
15:19:06 <Joshue> Chair: AWK
15:19:08 <jon_avila> awk: Issue 86 -- UA support seems to be non-existent
15:19:17 <AWK__> TOPIC: Issue 86: UA support for this technique seems to be non-existent
15:20:40 <jon_avila> Makoto: People mis understand that each section should have a heading to meet -- it may not be required that each section have a heading.  Just pointing this out.
15:21:05 <Joshue> q?
15:21:10 <jon_avila> awk: Your right -- it is not necessary, but if you do, you are doing as this technique suggests and as a result you meet SC 2.4.1
15:21:33 <jon_avila> awk: technique says if you have a comprehensive heading structure you will meet the SC as an outcome
15:23:37 <jon_avila> awk: any other thoughts?
15:24:48 <jon_avila> adam: experience says that screen reader users like headings.  Good technique to have even if it may not meet the success criteria.
15:25:23 <Joshue> q?
15:25:35 <jon_avila> awk: proposed response is to keep H69 and updating the user agent support notes.
15:27:14 <jon_avila> q+
15:27:55 <jon_avila> awk: Lauara had made comment to add user information about impact on screen reader user in understanding document.  May not need that info in this document.
15:27:56 <David> I added a sentence in case you wanted to
15:29:10 <Joshue> q?
15:29:14 <Joshue> ack me
15:29:59 <jon_avila> awk: not sure I want to use the precendence of this technique as a reason to keep it
15:30:20 <Joshue> ack jon
15:30:30 <AWK__> Suggest changing 2nd sentence to: As a result, and in consideration that screen reader users use heading navigation as a core strategy, we are electing to keep technique H69, and will update the user agent notes per your suggestion.
15:30:35 <Joshue> JA: My question is, how do we know someone has access?
15:31:03 <Joshue> JA: We are making assumptions about plugins etc. You can only make this argument in a give environment. Correct?
15:31:12 <Joshue> q?
15:31:24 <Joshue> LGR: Sure - a11y support is an issue for every tech.
15:31:33 <Joshue> JS: For other techs they don't require plugins.
15:31:55 <Joshue> LGR: Its no worse that specifying browser/UA combinations.
15:31:57 <Joshue> q?
15:32:41 <Joshue> <existential discussion on where SCs breakdown due to non specified paramenters or constraints for sufficient support>
15:32:50 <Joshue> q?
15:32:58 <Joshue> q+
15:33:04 <AWK__> ADam: I understood that contrast needed to be on the developer side
15:33:58 <David> adam you are breaking up
15:34:26 <Joshue> ack me
15:35:27 <AWK__> present+ Mike_Elledge
15:36:09 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag
15:36:30 <Loretta> q+
15:36:38 <Joshue> ack lore
15:36:47 <David> who's typing?
15:37:41 <Loretta> ?
15:37:49 <MoeKraft> test
15:37:58 <Joshue> q?
15:38:16 <jon_avil> jon_avil has joined #wai-wcag
15:39:28 <jon_avil> lgr: concerned about response to commenter as a keyboard issue as the response focuses on screen reader users
15:39:55 <cstrobbe> In 2011, I found that only Opera supported heading navigation, and the GreaseMonkey script did not work at that time: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2011JulSep/0177.html
15:40:09 <jon_avil> dm: not a keyboard blocker -- issue is not just about keyboard access
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15:40:49 <Joshue> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/86#issuecomment-99463886
15:40:57 <jon_avil> lgr: is there a place I can see complete current response?
15:41:35 <jon_avil> lgr: preference is to remove the screen reader suport
15:41:40 <jon_avil> dm: ok to remove that screen reader part
15:41:45 <Joshue> ack me
15:42:01 <jamesn> present+ James_Nurthen
15:42:01 <Joshue> q?
15:42:40 <Joshue> JA: I don't agree as its not sufficient for keyboard only users/
15:42:49 <Joshue> s/users//users
15:42:54 <jamesn> q+
15:42:55 <Joshue> AWK: What is?
15:42:59 <Joshue> JA: Skip link
15:43:20 <Joshue> JOC: Should this be an advisory technique then?
15:44:02 <Joshue> AWK: What about mobile devices?
15:44:04 <laura> Why can’t http://paypal.github.io/skipto/ be used on a moblie device?
15:44:31 <Joshue> <discussion on mobile devices, success criterion etc>
15:44:49 <Joshue> AWK: The issue is still about a11y support.
15:45:32 <jon_avil> awk: Still have accessibility support issue.  Similar but different argument if we also talk about mobile devices
15:46:31 <Joshue> JA: I'm not oppossed to removing the tech - or keeping it satisfy the SC - as long as we are clear about some of the dependencies.
15:46:38 <jon_avil> awk: perhaps the solution is updating the user notes
15:47:40 <jon_avil> lc: can you use skip to on mobile
15:47:48 <jon_avil> jn: you can skip to on mobile as bookmarklet
15:48:48 <jon_avil> lc: if they are going to skp nav then why not implement skip to as it is better.
15:50:02 <Joshue> JA: People with low vision may have problems locating pointer etc.
15:50:22 <jon_avil> dm: seen many people use mouse keys in environment
15:50:27 <jon_avil> jn: skip to link can be confusing
15:50:38 <AWK__> q+
15:50:40 <Joshue> q?
15:51:06 <jon_avil> dm: just never seen in real life people who can see that are using the keyboard
15:51:44 <jon_avil> dm: tons of people who use the keyboard but they also use mouse keys in addition
15:52:12 <jon_avil> jn: why are they using mouse keys -- because things aren't accessible or because there is some benefit
15:52:39 <jon_avil> kw: has team member who often uses mouse keys because things aren't keyboard accessible and they have gotten use to that.
15:53:01 <laura> http://simplyaccessible.com/ has an implication that is similar to skipto
15:53:03 <Joshue> q?
15:53:21 <jon_avil> awk: Should the skipTo plugin be part of this response?
15:53:54 <Joshue> q+ to say it looks nice
15:54:19 <jon_avil> jn: user can add skipto as a bookmarklet and add to any page. -- so it's not on author.  Instructions are provided on how to use it as a bookmarklet
15:54:36 <AWK__> q-
15:54:43 <Joshue> -q
15:54:57 <jon_avil> jn: some browsers require many keystrokes to access bookmarklet.  This plugin doesn't work well in dynamic pages.  Also does not work in iFrames.
15:55:29 <jon_avil> jn: Preparing to update the plugin so it would work in dynamic situations and work with iFrames
15:55:44 <AWK__> ack james
15:56:12 <jon_avil> jn: issues will always surround iFrames that are in different security contexts.
15:56:24 <MoeKraft> And don't forget about carpal tunnel syndrome sufferers
15:57:17 <AWK__> proposed response: Thank you for the comment. The Working Group finds that while it is accurate that current versions of Opera no longer support keyboard navigation by heading elements, we have found that the SkipTo plugin (http://paypal.github.io/skipto/) implemented as a bookmarklet and Greasemonkey user script for heading navigation provided by Gez Lemon (http://juicystudio.com/article/heading-navigation-greasemonkey-user-script.php) both provide the abili[CUT]
15:57:42 <AWK__> avigate by headings.  As a result, we are electing to keep technique H69, and will update the user agent notes per your suggestion.
15:58:07 <Joshue> +1
15:58:08 <jon_avil> awk: any objections to accepting response as amended?
15:58:09 <MoeKraft> +1
15:58:27 <MoeKraft> keep H69
15:58:46 <MoeKraft> correct
16:00:10 <jon_avil> ACCEPTED as amended: H86
16:00:21 <Joshue> ack me
16:01:53 <AWK__> ACTION: David to work with Jon on user agent notes related to Issue 86
16:01:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-309 - Work with jon on user agent notes related to issue 86 [on David MacDonald - due 2015-05-19].
16:02:20 <jon_avil> ACCEPTED as amended: H69 - Issue 86
16:03:29 <Joshue> RESOLUTION: ACCEPTED as amended: H69: Issue 86
16:03:32 <jon_avil> awk: Issue 69 - issue from Makoto about Japanese translation
16:03:37 <Joshue> q?
16:04:07 <AWK__> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/69#issuecomment-87877885
16:04:37 <jon_avil> awk: gregg should review proposal
16:05:42 <jon_avil> mc: Gregg will either accept it or provide feedback on why certain words were chosen and then we can forward that to Makoto
16:06:58 <jon_avil> awk: can we have a conditional accepting as proposed conditional on gregg reviewing and liking it?
16:07:23 <jon_avil> awk: no objections heard.  We will send this to Gregg.  We will like Makoto know.
16:07:44 <jon_avil> RESOLUTION ACCEPTED as proposed conditional on Gregg reviewing and approving.
16:08:31 <AWK__> TOPIC: WCAG Call for Consensus Proposal
16:08:31 <Joshue> RESOLUTION: ACCEPTED as proposed conditional on Gregg reviewing and approving.
16:08:48 <jon_avil> awk: skip third party content and go to WCAG call for consensus proposal
16:09:12 <David> is there a link
16:10:01 <jon_avil> jo: why is TF mentioned in here?
16:10:17 <jon_avil> awk: Should be modified as that came from copied text.
16:10:40 <jon_avil> jo: WCAG decision page might not always be on wiki -- so I would change that part referring to the wiki
16:11:14 <Joshue> q?
16:12:21 <jon_avil> MC: Not sure if they are major blockings but they are key subtles.   Not sure you want to say where discussion should take place.  May want to provide guideance without going to strict to rule to foster informal discussion but have guidance on making sure discussion has hit the radar.
16:12:40 <jon_avil> mc: also aware that we don't want people to hold group hostage by saying they didn't read their email that week.
16:13:40 <jon_avil> mc:  Want to say the teleconference is encourage to make a resolutions but that is not a resolution under the consensus policy.
16:14:21 <David> +1 on checks and balances for editorial
16:14:25 <jon_avil> mc: Need some level of fail safe if a chair says that something is editorial and others feel that it isn't that it can down a process to vet it
16:14:31 <Joshue> q?
16:15:39 <AWK__> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Consensus
16:16:52 <jon_avil> awk: in last sentence about chairs following sound judgement -- add escalation path for things such as items people disagree are editorial.
16:17:00 <Joshue> ack me
16:17:06 <jon_avil> dm: what about just calling for a vote?  Can we just resolve this in the group?
16:17:46 <jon_avil> jo: Categorizing things as editorial things just reduce the overhead.
16:19:05 <jon_avil> mc: Policy and fail safe is important at certain times -- but you don't want to lean on those when a friendly chat would resolve it.
16:19:47 <jon_avil> mc: Policy needs to provide the protection when friendly chats are not working -- but should not require use of the protections when a friendly chat will work.
16:20:42 <jon_avil> awk: policy would say bring to chairs, and then to Michael, and then to Judy or who the accessibility domain lead.
16:22:02 <jon_avil> mc: if in a teleconference if you bring it up it will go to chairs and hopefully it would escalate using the policy.  Shouldn't be required to bring it privately but you certainly can.
16:24:18 <jon_avil> awk: Say someone points out something editorial and chair makes change.  Then someone in group sees that in github and then raises the issue on email or github.  So any language should allow for asynchronous communications.
16:24:31 <David> Issues that are regarded as editorial by the Chairs do not require a Working Group decision in order for the Chairs to address, and thus do not require a Call for Consensus.  If there is disagreement, by particpants on whether something is editorial, this can be brought to the attention of the chairs either orivately or in the context of the wider group.
16:26:32 <jon_avil> dm: how could the group see what is changing in the editorial space?  is there a place for that?
16:27:23 <jon_avil> awk: changes are part of the github record.  There may be a notification in github that may be able to be sent to the list.  Would like to avoid having to document removing a comma
16:28:06 <Joshue> Joshue don't like oritatively -'[...] brought to the attention of the chairs either privately or in the context of the wider group'
16:28:21 <jon_avil> mc: options include following the repository.  We could create a proxy user that would represent the mailing list and then issues would be sent to the list.
16:29:42 <jon_avil> mc: make a good comment on the commit in git
16:30:07 <AWK__> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Consensus
16:31:18 <jon_avil> awk: still some mechanics that we need to figure out about changes.  We need to figure out the right protections but flexibility in the future.
16:31:41 <jon_avil> awk: Are we good with this now and fix minor things later?
16:32:23 <jon_avil> awk: any objections to accepting the consensus document as edited and putting it into action?
16:32:24 <Mike_Elledge> +1
16:32:27 <MoeKraft> +1
16:32:54 <Joshue> +1
16:32:54 <jon_avil> jn: are you going to send around to the mailing list as a call for consensus?
16:33:18 <jon_avil> mc: While we are not obligated under the policy now we should take extra care on this.
16:34:38 <jon_avil> awk: Any objections to accepting contingent on consensus on the consensus proposal?
16:35:11 <jon_avil> mc: Use participant everywhere as members are W3C members where participants may be representatives
16:35:38 <jon_avil> awk: Put this out to the list
16:35:41 <Mike_Elledge> bye all!
16:36:12 <jon_avil> awk: thanks for joining and assuming it's approved we will send things out via email for approval.
16:36:38 <laura> Bye. Thanks.
16:36:38 <jon_avil> zakim, list attendees
16:36:38 <Zakim> sorry, jon_avil, I don't know what conference this is
16:37:25 <jon_avil> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:37:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/12-wai-wcag-minutes.html jon_avil
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