IRC log of coga on 2015-05-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:30:41 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:31:47 [Lisa_Seeman]
Meeting:The Cognitive Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:31:48 [Lisa_Seeman]
15:31:50 [Lisa_Seeman]
15:31:51 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda: this
15:31:53 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ review of agenda, new items,
15:31:54 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ SVG joint meeting
15:31:56 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ right term for aria "function"
15:31:57 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ Proposal for Dementia and mci
15:31:59 [Lisa_Seeman]
agenda+ be done
15:52:27 [shepazu_]
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15:54:36 [Lisa_Seeman]
hi, are you joing us on webex or zakim?
15:54:52 [Lisa_Seeman]
we are trying to switch...
15:54:52 [ayelet_s]
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15:56:46 [Lisa_Seeman]
15:57:29 [Lisa_Seeman]
MicahelC we can NOT strt the webex meeting without you!
15:58:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
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15:59:15 [Lisa_Seeman]
15:59:27 [Lisa_Seeman]
can people joint the webex
16:00:16 [Chaohai_Ding]
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16:00:31 [Lisa_Seeman]
US Toll Number: +1-617-324-0000
16:00:33 [Lisa_Seeman]
Access code:649 368 070
16:00:34 [Lisa_Seeman]
Mobile Auto Dial:+1-617-324-0000,,,649368070#
16:01:37 [Lisa_Seeman]
or go to
16:01:44 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:02:08 [Lisa_Seeman]
next itm
16:02:12 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:03:26 [ddahl]
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16:04:05 [chaals]
zakim, code?
16:04:05 [Zakim]
sorry, chaals, I don't know what conference this is
16:04:13 [Lisa_Seeman]
Doug can you join us on webex
16:04:25 [Lisa_Seeman]
next item
16:04:29 [chaals]
oh. webex
16:04:37 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:04:42 [ayelet_s]
I could
16:04:52 [ayelet_s]
16:05:00 [Lisa_Seeman]
scribe: ayelet_s
16:05:31 [Lisa_Seeman]
challs can you callin
16:06:02 [Lisa_Seeman]
US Toll Number: +1-617-324-0000
16:06:03 [Lisa_Seeman]
Access code:649 368 070
16:06:05 [Lisa_Seeman]
Mobile Auto Dial:+1-617-324-0000,,,649368070#
16:06:06 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:06:08 [Lisa_Seeman]
For assistance
16:06:09 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:06:11 [Lisa_Seeman]
1. Go to
16:06:12 [Lisa_Seeman]
2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support".
16:06:28 [Lisa_Seeman]
chaals - can you call in?
16:06:36 [janina]
present+ Janina
16:07:56 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Rich is here
16:08:02 [Lisa_Seeman]
Lisa is here
16:08:10 [ayelet_s]
Michael: need different way to take attendance
16:08:11 [Lisa_Seeman]
Present+ lisa
16:08:18 [Chaohai_Ding]
Chaohai is here
16:08:18 [Zakim]
16:08:20 [Zakim]
WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has ended
16:08:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Fred_Esch, Doug_Schepers
16:08:23 [fesch]
present+ fesch
16:08:55 [ayelet_s]
present+ ayelet_s
16:08:59 [MichaelC]
present: Michael_Cooper, Ayelet_Seeman, Chaohai_Ding, Debbie_Dahl, Fred_Esch, Lisa_Seeman, Mike_Pluke, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Doug_Schepers, Tony_Doran
16:09:52 [slee]
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16:10:54 [Lisa_Seeman]
Chaalls -you can goto
16:10:58 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:11:01 [Lisa_Seeman]
no need to call
16:12:34 [Lisa_Seeman]
Also Janina is fining a url were you can enter your number and webex will call you in
16:12:35 [MichaelC]
16:12:52 [Tony_Doran]
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16:13:19 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:13:30 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:13:52 [Lisa_Seeman]
chaalls did you try
16:14:02 [Lisa_Seeman]
(diffrent link) it will call you
16:14:03 [Mike_Pluke]
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16:15:03 [Mike_Pluke]
You mentioned a link in IRC - only just joined IRC so can't see link. Can someone paste it in IRC again?
16:15:13 [MichaelC]
16:15:32 [shepazu]
16:17:09 [Lisa_Seeman]
I can here u
16:17:18 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:17:19 [ayelet_s]
did fesch introduce the comennts SVG is looking for?
16:18:02 [fesch]
rich introduced SVG comments
16:18:15 [ayelet_s]
16:18:42 [ayelet_s]
rich: want to know what we need in SVG to support cognitive disabilities
16:18:53 [fesch]
16:19:21 [chaals]
[I note that at a minimum, we need rational navigation, and the ability to identify things from each other…]
16:19:58 [chaals]
[identify visually, I mean. Authoring requirement as much as anything]
16:20:30 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:20:49 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack sh
16:21:39 [MichaelC]
present+ Chaals
16:21:42 [fesch]
ack me
16:22:07 [slee]
Lisa_Seeman: My meeting is still ongoing :(
16:22:15 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:22:21 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:22:26 [ayelet_s]
fesch: is simplification a wanted requirement?
16:22:50 [ayelet_s]
lisa: for some users the ability to simplify is useful
16:23:01 [shepazu]
16:23:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:24:03 [ayelet_s]
lisa: there is a shift from the encoding to the content
16:24:35 [Zakim]
WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has now started
16:24:41 [Zakim]
WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has ended
16:24:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were
16:25:18 [Zakim]
WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has now started
16:25:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:25:25 [Zakim]
16:25:28 [Zakim]
16:25:29 [Zakim]
WAI_CogTF()12:00PM has ended
16:25:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller]
16:25:35 [ayelet_s]
lisa: so for example, use symbols to aid understanding
16:25:41 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:25:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:26:25 [LJWatson]
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16:28:01 [ayelet_s]
lisa: the ability to highlight part of the visual content will be helpful
16:29:27 [fesch]
16:29:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:29:37 [ayelet_s]
Lisa: tags (possibly aria) for numbers and non literal content, with which to provide alternative content. will translate to visual content as well
16:31:09 [ddahl]
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16:32:08 [ayelet_s]
was disconnected, could someone fill in anything important I missed?
16:32:16 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:32:30 [Lisa_Seeman]
DOug: authering tips is outside scope
16:33:08 [Lisa_Seeman]
Doug: we are interested in wht sematics are need
16:33:10 [chaals]
lisa: When there is text or speech describing things, be able to associate it with the part(s) of the image being described…
16:33:25 [ayelet_s]
16:34:09 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:34:33 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack rich
16:35:22 [Lisa_Seeman]
rich: what would the user experence be
16:35:56 [ayelet_s]
thanks lisa, I could take over from here
16:37:04 [chaals]
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16:38:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:38:17 [shepazu]
16:38:19 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack f
16:38:23 [ayelet_s]
someone: this is the challenge - "clear symbols" aren't defined accurately
16:38:27 [chaals]
q- later
16:38:33 [ayelet_s]
who said that ^
16:38:50 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:39:03 [ayelet_s]
16:39:27 [fesch]
ack me
16:40:30 [chaals]
16:40:42 [chaals]
16:40:49 [chaals]
16:41:08 [chaals]
s/thanks lisa, I could take over from here//
16:41:18 [chaals]
16:41:35 [chaals]
s/was disconnected, could someone fill in anything important I missed?//
16:41:45 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Plumbing Potential Features:
16:41:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]
* Media Query feature that says to expose features of a given importance level or higher
16:41:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]
* Need the ability to group sections of a diagram together with a defined keyboard navigation order
16:41:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]
* Ability to highlight content with their associated visual descriptions
16:41:49 [richardschwerdtfeger]
* Ability to annotate the importance level
16:41:56 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:41:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate chaals
16:42:17 [chaals]
rrsagent, make log public
16:43:00 [chaals]
s/Lisa_Seeman: My meeting is still ongoing :(//
16:43:45 [ayelet_s]
lisa: the current tags might be the wrong ones for the cognitive group - we want non literal, nunmbers and importance
16:43:47 [chaals]
LS: People want to be able to request fewer, smaller icons. Also to be able to get information about things they are focusing their attention on.
16:44:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:44:04 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:44:49 [chaals]
LS: e.g. using something like aria-described - but as I mentioned before, the content might be different to what woulld be requested by a non-visual user
16:44:57 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack me
16:45:02 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:45:10 [chaals]
ack shep
16:45:38 [chaals]
DS: Best thing is to decide what we are trying to accomplish - break down our work into different goals.
16:45:57 [chaals]
i/LS: e.g./scribe: chaals/
16:46:02 [LJWatson]
+1 to identifying goals.
16:46:09 [chaals]
… one thing will be identifying use cases
16:46:17 [chaals]
[+1 to identifying goals]
16:46:46 [chaals]
… some aspects of use cases will lead to requirements for users that are fulfilled by authoring practice, some by adding features to SVG or ARIA, some will crossover
16:46:57 [chaals]
… Some will be requirements on user agents.
16:47:08 [chaals]
… It is relatively easy to identify the features needed by a screenreader
16:47:28 [chaals]
[For the record I don't think it is that easy with a screenreader either, but doug's point is still valid]
16:47:58 [chaals]
… There are different kinds of requirement, and we need to be able to work out how to handle the range of them - e.g. signalling user requirements and use profiles
16:48:16 [chaals]
LS: We have been working on doing this client-side to pull out the things people want without giving away their privacy / security
16:48:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Plumbing Potential Features:
16:48:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Media Query feature that says to expose features of a given importance level or higher
16:48:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Need the ability to group sections of a diagram together with a defined keyboard navigation order
16:48:30 [chaals]
[+1 to making sure you don't identify how easy it is to trick you in a certain way…]
16:48:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Ability to highlight content with their associated visual descriptions
16:48:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Ability to annotate the importance level
16:48:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Need alternative, alternative text for people with cognitive impairments
16:48:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]
We need an aria-nonliteral attribute (takes a string). See the example above. (Note: Lisa, what do you want the user agent or author to do with this. e.g. if there was a media query that stated that non-literals are used instead ... render it some how)
16:48:36 [richardschwerdtfeger]
We need less icons but make them bigger. ...?
16:48:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
We need to be able to pull in information about a picture that is pulled in from somewhere else. (To Do for Lisa to expand on this)
16:48:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
Ability to tie colors to semantic meaning?
16:48:52 [chaals]
DS: So how do we want to approach this stuff. Do we need a longer conversation?
16:48:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:49:16 [chaals]
LS: I heard two things. One, identify the goals. 2. We need to understand the user experience and what it needs to be.
16:49:35 [chaals]
… then we can get into the nitty gritty of how we might try to achieve these things.
16:49:44 [chaals]
ack me
16:49:58 [chaals]
16:50:08 [Lisa_Seeman]
ack ch
16:50:10 [chaals]
RS: Two things I see here. We need a vehicle for the user to specify their needs.
16:50:12 [chaals]
16:50:22 [chaals]
… e.g. like user context API
16:50:28 [chaals]
ack ri
16:50:56 [chaals]
… Sounds like we also need additional attributes in content to help the user agent or application author match content to user requirements.
16:51:21 [chaals]
… We also need to know what the user agent needs to do.
16:51:31 [LJWatson]
present+ LJWatson
16:52:02 [chaals]
… we can add alternate content and similar metadata of various kinds.
16:52:33 [chaals]
… We will need some of these things for SVG drawings. They are not necessarily important for assistive technology using accessibility APIs but it does impact the accessibility of the user experience.
16:52:37 [Lisa_Seeman]
LS: I heard two things. One, identify the goals. 2. We need to understand the user experience and what it needs to be. 3. how the user comuntes their need
16:52:46 [chaals]
… We need a way for the user to get the "correct" content.
16:52:58 [chaals]
16:53:06 [MichaelC]
16:53:09 [chaals]
s/need/needs to the application or user agent
16:53:21 [Lisa_Seeman]
One, identify the goals. 2. We need to understand the user experience and what it needs to be. 3. idetfy the sematics we need, 4 how the user comuntes their need
16:53:37 [chaals]
s/needs to the application or user agent/need/
16:53:46 [chaals]
s/need/needs to the application or user agent
16:54:14 [MichaelC]
ack c
16:55:05 [LJWatson]
Chaals: What we need is a statement of the problems people face. A good way to do this is to gather as many examples for as many different disabilities as we can.
16:55:10 [shepazu]
16:55:38 [shepazu]
16:56:10 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:56:13 [LJWatson]
Chaals: Before we start assigning changes to UA, ARIA or SVG, we should understand those questions at a basic level at the least.
16:56:28 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:56:39 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:56:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]
16:56:55 [Lisa_Seeman]
16:57:05 [LJWatson]
Chaals: If you have an attribute that says this content doesn't contain numbers, I think that's the wrong way around. We should try to identify *when content contains numbers. There's a lower risk of false positives, and it's easier to accomplish.
16:57:47 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
16:58:18 [LJWatson]
LS: Will write up some conclusions from this meeting and circulate.
16:58:32 [chaals]
-> A growing set of SVG images to consider …
16:58:32 [LJWatson]
LS: My concern is that with so many important deadlines coming up, how do we prioritise?
16:58:50 [chaals]
[needs a lot of things like interactive interfaces and applications to be added]
16:58:51 [LJWatson]
LS: Could we put CogA people in SVG TF or vice versa perhaps? Thoughts?
16:59:17 [chaals]
[I suggest we prioritise mostly by focusing on the stuff that people do the work to move forward…]
16:59:22 [LJWatson]
RS: Not sure of SVG 2 timeline, but would like to get something up and running within the next 12 months. We have work to do!
16:59:28 [chaals]
[chaals leaves for real]
16:59:49 [ddahl]
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16:59:50 [LJWatson]
RS: We (the CogA TF) need to identify the attributes that match the needs of users, and develop guidelines on how to use them properly.
17:00:09 [LJWatson]
RS: Also need a vehicle to convey to the UA how to pick the right experience - it's a context issue.
17:00:19 [LJWatson]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LJWatson
17:00:21 [janina]
Need to leave now, sorry!
17:01:12 [LJWatson]
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17:01:18 [Tony_Doran]
I need to drop off sorry
17:01:18 [ayelet_s]
17:01:26 [Lisa_Seeman]
17:01:27 [chaals1]
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17:01:39 [Lisa_Seeman]
17:01:52 [ayelet_s]
Fred: we need actual research on user cases
17:02:24 [ayelet_s]
Lisa: we have that in the user cases, but they are not specific to visual user cases
17:02:42 [Lisa_Seeman]
17:03:24 [ayelet_s]
,,, worth reading them before deciding to make more user cases
17:04:58 [ayelet_s]
... we are writing JSON object notations for adapting the content for different user group
17:05:40 [ayelet_s]
... will be deployed quicker than GPII
17:06:06 [ayelet_s]
Fred: do we have user cases about charts or graphics
17:06:18 [ayelet_s]
LS: no, but we have techniques
17:06:49 [ayelet_s]
Fred: we need to extract ones for SVG
17:07:11 [Mike_Pluke]
I've lost the Webex audi after losing the connection and rejoining - have we nearly finished?
17:07:18 [Lisa_Seeman]
17:07:58 [ayelet_s]
LS: what we did so far. is a gross approach but could become more complex
17:08:13 [ayelet_s]
*link to what we did so far
17:09:03 [ayelet_s]
Lisa: will write E-mail in conclusion. Will also go back to task force and discuss how to prioritise this
17:09:31 [ayelet_s]
Fred: how could we(SVG) validate the techniques you propose?
17:10:24 [ayelet_s]
LS: easiest way would be to bring it back to our task force, as we have members working with people with disabilities
17:10:45 [ayelet_s]
LS: Thanks for all, and sorry for the problems with the new technology
17:10:53 [Lisa_Seeman]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:10:59 [Lisa_Seeman]
rrsagent, create minutes
17:10:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Lisa_Seeman
17:11:05 [Lisa_Seeman]
zakim, please part
17:11:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #coga
17:11:25 [Lisa_Seeman]
rrsagent, please part
17:11:25 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items