IRC log of tt on 2015-04-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tt
13:56:54 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-irc
13:56:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:56:56 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #tt
13:56:58 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be TTML
13:56:59 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:59 [trackbot]
Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
13:57:00 [trackbot]
Date: 30 April 2015
13:59:21 [Zakim]
SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
13:59:27 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
13:59:29 [courtney]
courtney has joined #tt
14:01:32 [Zakim]
+nigel
14:01:39 [atai]
atai has joined #tt
14:01:59 [Zakim]
+Andreas
14:02:10 [nigel]
Present: nigel, Andreas, courtney
14:02:40 [nigel]
zakim, [Apple] is courtney
14:02:40 [Zakim]
+courtney; got it
14:02:46 [nigel]
chair: nigel
14:02:48 [nigel]
scribe: nigel
14:03:19 [pal]
pal has joined #tt
14:03:23 [Zakim]
+pal
14:03:28 [nigel]
Present+ pal
14:03:35 [nigel]
Regrets: dsinger
14:04:18 [plh]
plh has joined #tt
14:04:25 [Zakim]
+Plh
14:04:37 [nigel]
Present+ plh
14:04:55 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
14:04:58 [nigel]
nigel: AOB?
14:05:01 [nigel]
group: no AOB
14:06:27 [nigel]
Topic: Action items
14:06:51 [nigel]
action-390?
14:06:51 [trackbot]
action-390 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the multirowalign and linepadding ttml files to have shorter lines of text -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:06:51 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/390
14:06:57 [nigel]
action-391?
14:06:57 [trackbot]
action-391 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the multirowalign and linepadding pngs to match the ttml -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:06:57 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/391
14:07:17 [nigel]
nigel: I was hoping that Andreas could review these before I close them.
14:07:44 [nigel]
Andreas: I had some problems with Mercurial but this is on the top of my list to review. I'll come back next week with these.
14:08:42 [nigel]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Tests
14:08:55 [nigel]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/linePadding/linePadding1.ttml
14:09:11 [nigel]
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/bb46ee1c9c18/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/linePadding/
14:09:28 [nigel]
nigel: You can browse directly using the repository - see above links.
14:10:06 [nigel]
... I should possibly remove the .png files that aren't 16x9 or 4x3 because they're wrong and not referenced anywhere.
14:10:32 [nigel]
action-392?
14:10:32 [trackbot]
action-392 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Tweak the examples with multiple regions so that they appear in a more intuitive order. -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:10:32 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/392
14:10:56 [nigel]
nigel: Pierre, you've adjusted the multiple region examples?
14:10:57 [nigel]
pal: Yes.
14:11:12 [nigel]
close action-392
14:11:12 [trackbot]
Closed action-392.
14:11:16 [nigel]
action-393?
14:11:16 [trackbot]
action-393 -- Nigel Megitt to Send pal details of implementation and tests passed so he can create a table in the implementation report -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:11:16 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/393
14:11:48 [nigel]
nigel: We discussed this last week and plh uploaded the videos. I think that's all done now.
14:12:01 [plh]
http://media.w3.org/2015/04/
14:12:29 [nigel]
nigel: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Results
14:12:49 [nigel]
nigel: The two BBC prototype tests are now on the above results page.
14:13:28 [nigel]
close action-393
14:13:28 [trackbot]
Closed action-393.
14:13:41 [nigel]
action-400?
14:13:41 [trackbot]
action-400 -- Nigel Megitt to Send smpte dispositions from action-378 to smpte (mdolan) -- due 2015-04-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:13:41 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/400
14:15:05 [nigel]
nigel: I sent Mike our dispositions on the SMPTE email on Monday. Just for info, when David Singer
14:15:33 [nigel]
... reviewed the draft he noticed that the TTML2 features may be subject to further change when we
14:15:51 [nigel]
... go to wide review, so we added an extra sentence in the introduction to highlight that point.
14:15:58 [nigel]
... Obviously Mike already knows it anyway.
14:16:05 [nigel]
close action-400
14:16:06 [trackbot]
Closed action-400.
14:16:50 [nigel]
nigel: There are lots of open actions remaining - does anyone want to call out any specifically that may
14:16:58 [nigel]
... have had some work but not been updated on the tracker?
14:17:00 [nigel]
action-389
14:17:00 [trackbot]
action-389 -- Andreas Tai to Check with ebu group if we can have a combined event at ibc with ebu group and imsc/w3c -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN
14:17:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/389
14:17:30 [nigel]
andreas: We are having internal discussions on if we can have joint presentations at IBC for IMSC and EBU-TT-D.
14:17:33 [nigel]
action-398?
14:17:33 [trackbot]
action-398 -- Andreas Tai to Contact erik lindstrom re htmlcue -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN
14:17:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/398
14:18:15 [nigel]
andreas: I wrote to Erik re the generic HTMLCue idea and he responded today that there has been
14:18:32 [nigel]
... some ongoing work with Glenn and it was considered for use in blink. The idea was to transform
14:18:54 [nigel]
... TTML documents to ISDs and then generate HTML code from them. That was the basic idea. Maybe
14:19:06 [nigel]
... the document itself shouldn't be proposed directly to the group but could be the basis for a proposal.
14:19:20 [nigel]
... The next thing is to check if Opera or Erik is able to work with someone else in the group on that
14:19:34 [nigel]
... proposal. I understand this is something we can discuss with the HTML WG at the next TPAC meeting.
14:19:53 [nigel]
... Possibly this group should scope more what our requirements should be for this internal cue concept.
14:20:30 [nigel]
close action-398
14:20:30 [trackbot]
Closed action-398.
14:21:05 [nigel]
Andreas: The idea was that we make some kind of proposal for the HTML WG. I think we decided we
14:21:28 [nigel]
... want to go ahead with this. Is that right?
14:21:38 [nigel]
pal: Yes, I think there was broad consensus that it would be a good idea.
14:21:59 [nigel]
andreas: I think so; I can imagine that Erik or Opera would be willing to participate in this if there are
14:22:18 [nigel]
... other collaborators, and to use their input as a base. I'm certainly interested but have not enough
14:22:24 [nigel]
... knowledge at the moment to volunteer.
14:22:59 [nigel]
pal: This has been a long running project. As I recall, Glenn had put a lot of effort into trying to get this
14:23:14 [nigel]
... done and the obstacles were not technical. So do you feel that those obstacles have been overcome
14:23:32 [nigel]
... and this is mainly technical work? I'm just trying to understand the status. I'd love to be able to help.
14:23:51 [nigel]
andreas: Mostly my information is based on what Glenn said. I think the main obstacle is time on Glenn's
14:24:35 [nigel]
... side, that was my interpretation. This hasn't yet been proposed to HTML WG but was a ticket raised
14:24:44 [nigel]
... on Chromium, but it didn't get positive feedback.
14:25:02 [nigel]
pal: So the current strategy is to write an HTML extension and submit it to the HTML WG. I'm happy to help.
14:25:11 [nigel]
... Is there a draft? Do we have a beginning?
14:25:30 [nigel]
andreas: I'm not sure. He brought Opera's proposal in as a good start. Possibly we can say that pal and I
14:25:45 [nigel]
... are willing to help and if we can work with Erik then we can plan on how to push this forward.
14:26:44 [nigel]
pal: Maybe we can take this on with just the 4 of us and see where we go.
14:27:10 [nigel]
nigel: Great, we need to turn this into actions. Philippe, what's the normal way to publish HTML extensions?
14:27:18 [nigel]
... Do we have to do it as a Recommendation, or is a Note okay?
14:27:57 [nigel]
plh: There's no standard way to do it. It could be published by HTML WG under the Media Task Force
14:28:58 [nigel]
... or here - if you want it to be a Recommendation from this group then you need to update the charter
14:29:20 [nigel]
... and send it to AC for review. It's normal for HTML extensions to be Rec track documents.
14:29:39 [nigel]
... This reminds me that the Media Task Force met 2 weeks ago and discussed transcripts. There is
14:29:45 [nigel]
... interest there to do further work on transcripts.
14:30:39 [nigel]
plh: Figure out where the best place is to work on it, in HTML WG or here, and then adjust the
14:30:54 [nigel]
... charters as needed. Adding a deliverable to a charter isn't too difficult to do.
14:31:44 [nigel]
nigel: It seems to me that we need two pieces of work: one to define the generic HTMLCue structure
14:31:56 [nigel]
... and the other to define the mapping from TTML/ISD to HTMLCue.
14:32:57 [nigel]
Andreas: Do you think the HTML WG would define the HTMLCue and and we would define the mapping?
14:33:14 [nigel]
nigel: Yes, that's what I was thinking. Even if we write the HTMLCue spec and give it to HTML WG as an
14:33:21 [nigel]
... extension that would be fine.
14:33:37 [nigel]
pal: I tend to agree with nigel that for both implementation and correctness the HTML WG should publish
14:33:41 [nigel]
... the generic HTMLCue part.
14:34:14 [nigel]
plh: The best thing is to pitch it to the Media Task force and the HTML Accessibility Task Force. They
14:34:31 [nigel]
... both work on media related issues. Once you guys have a proposal I'm happy to help.
14:35:49 [Frans]
Frans has joined #tt
14:36:05 [nigel]
nigel: I'd like to make an 'in principle' proposal first before we put in loads of effort that would be
14:36:08 [nigel]
... rejected.
14:36:23 [nigel]
plh: Certainly as much detail on use cases and proposed approaches for solving them would be useful.
14:36:30 [Zakim]
+Frans
14:38:04 [nigel]
Action: atai2 Kick off discussions with Erik, Glenn, Nigel, Pierre on HTMLCue
14:38:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-401 - Kick off discussions with erik, glenn, nigel, pierre on htmlcue [on Andreas Tai - due 2015-05-07].
14:39:31 [nigel]
Action-394?
14:39:31 [trackbot]
Action-394 -- Courtney Kennedy to Determine who is responsible for putting together the dispositions of comments document and get a schedule from them. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN
14:39:31 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/394
14:40:01 [nigel]
Courtney: I talked to dsinger - clearly this is under way and he's actively running it. I didn't get a schedule from him.
14:40:30 [nigel]
... I'm happy with the progress report so far. He sent a spreadsheet - he's going to update it and maybe
14:40:48 [nigel]
... make it into a web page. Other than that everyone's aware - it's all been on the public list.
14:41:01 [nigel]
close action-394
14:41:01 [trackbot]
Closed action-394.
14:41:41 [nigel]
Topic: Issues
14:41:44 [nigel]
issue-382?
14:41:44 [trackbot]
issue-382 -- Require a computed non-indefinite begin time -- open
14:41:44 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/382
14:42:10 [nigel]
pal: There's been a lot of offline discussions on this issue. To summarise: there's a difference in opinion
14:42:26 [nigel]
... on exactly how the Root Temporal Extent works and what it means and the interaction between
14:42:44 [nigel]
... TTML1 and SMIL. So the very premise is still murky; therefore it's been difficult to make progress.
14:43:02 [nigel]
... My thinking on this is that I don't think IMSC 1 can do much to resolve ambiguities in SMIL and TTML1.
14:43:14 [nigel]
... If they are there they should be resolved at some point. The best IMSC 1 can do today with the
14:43:30 [nigel]
... least impact is to recommend that begin and end are used on div or p. That does not resolve the
14:43:45 [nigel]
... existing ambiguity but unambiguously captures when elements are active within an IMSC 1 document.
14:44:05 [nigel]
... That would not be a SHALL but rather a SHOULD. In the majority of TTML documents I've seen so far
14:44:22 [nigel]
... begin and end are used on p or div. We can continue to try to dig, and maybe reach a resolution.
14:44:36 [nigel]
... The other is to add a recommendation in IMSC 1 to specify begin and end on ps and divs. EBU-TT-D
14:45:11 [nigel]
... actually requires begin and end on p or span. Or the third option is to do nothing.
14:45:34 [nigel]
... I'm not optimistic that we can resolve the ambiguity.
14:46:10 [nigel]
andreas: I agree with pal on this. I thought we might conclude to recommend the use of timing
14:46:19 [nigel]
... explicitly in the document. So I think that was the second option.
14:46:33 [nigel]
pal: Yes, actually we had discussed a SHALL. I'm not sure that's appropriate because it sounds like
14:46:48 [nigel]
... there are applications where it's correct to omit begin and end times even though the vast majority
14:46:54 [nigel]
... of cases include them.
14:47:19 [nigel]
andreas: In the discussions I've had with people not involved in the specification process they like as
14:47:39 [nigel]
... many SHALLs as possible. If we know there are some problems and there are no clear use cases
14:47:51 [nigel]
... not to specify begin and end I can still see reasons to specify a SHALL not a SHOULD.
14:50:04 [nigel]
nigel: The use case comes from me actually in thinking about live cases. For distribution use cases I
14:50:18 [nigel]
... agree that begin and end times should or even shall be present, but the scope of IMSC is not
14:50:38 [nigel]
... completely restricted to distribution. I would accept a compromise that qualifies the requirement
14:51:00 [nigel]
... with it only applying when distributing the documents in a wrapper format.
14:51:21 [nigel]
pal: I am not sure that the times must always be present so that's why I'm proposing a SHOULD.
14:51:45 [nigel]
andreas: It's always a specification issue whether you know there's a use case or you don't know that
14:51:57 [nigel]
... there isn't a use case. I'd be happy to go with a should if that's what you think.
14:52:33 [nigel]
pal: If we're happy with this then I'd add a simple line under #timing to say begin and end should be
14:52:46 [nigel]
... present on at least one of div, p and span.
14:53:10 [nigel]
nigel: That works for me. You do need to allow for the possibility of timing on span.
14:53:34 [nigel]
nigel: Are you also planning to add a note on the potential ambiguity?
14:54:05 [nigel]
pal: The best I could write is maybe: "if begin remains indefinite then the begin corresponds to the begin
14:54:19 [nigel]
... of the root temporal extent"... but that's where the disagreement is so I'm not sure what to write.
14:55:44 [nigel]
nigel: As far as I know this issue has been raised only by Pierre. If we just make this change then
14:56:11 [nigel]
... maybe if there's an implementation problem we can deal with that as a specific problem to solve.
14:56:22 [nigel]
nigel: That sounds like a resolution to this issue.
14:57:14 [nigel]
pal: When I've done that then that will allow me to move ahead with the CR2 and the list of changes.
14:57:28 [nigel]
plh: I'll help you with that. Are there any substantial changes?
14:57:41 [nigel]
nigel: Yes, we reviewed them in the F2F and minuted them.
14:58:03 [nigel]
plh: If you make substantive changes you have to go to LC.
14:58:24 [nigel]
nigel: That's not what we understood - there is no LC in the new process.
14:58:46 [nigel]
plh: Ah my mistake you're on the 2014 process. We will have to ask for Director permission to go to CR
14:58:47 [nigel]
... again.
15:00:37 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report
15:00:57 [nigel]
nigel: My BBC colleagues spotted that the example video on the frameSync test has an edit list that
15:01:11 [nigel]
... moves the frames on by 2, which makes their gstreamer implementation fail.
15:02:07 [plh]
regrest for next week
15:02:07 [Zakim]
-Frans
15:02:09 [Zakim]
-courtney
15:02:09 [Zakim]
-Andreas
15:02:09 [plh]
(AC)
15:02:11 [Zakim]
-pal
15:02:15 [Zakim]
-Plh
15:02:18 [nigel]
pal: I've sent you the source for that video - maybe your colleagues could see if they can create an
15:02:28 [Zakim]
-nigel
15:02:28 [Zakim]
SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
15:02:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were nigel, Andreas, courtney, pal, Plh, Frans
15:02:38 [nigel]
pal: alternative version of the video without the edit list.
15:02:44 [nigel]
nigel: Okay I'll see what we can do.
15:02:50 [nigel]
Topic: WebVTT review feedback
15:03:01 [nigel]
Courtney: There's nothing more to report on this.
15:03:09 [nigel]
Topic: TTML2 Editorial Actions
15:03:22 [nigel]
nigel: We're out of time for this meeting but if you'd like to volunteer for any editorial actions please
15:03:29 [nigel]
... email me.
15:03:36 [nigel]
nigel: Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting]
15:03:45 [nigel]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:03:50 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:08:12 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:08:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:10:02 [nigel]
s/... done and the/pal: done and the
15:10:04 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:10:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:13:26 [nigel]
plh: regrets for next week (AC)
15:13:36 [nigel]
s/regrest for next week/
15:14:08 [nigel]
s/(AC)/
15:14:09 [nigel]
s/(AC)/
15:14:14 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:14:26 [nigel]
s/on this/on this right now
15:14:27 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:16:40 [nigel]
s/week/week (AC)
15:16:41 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:16:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
15:17:17 [nigel]
ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
15:17:19 [nigel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:15:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tt