12:57:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub-aria
12:57:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-dpub-aria-irc
12:57:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
12:57:16 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub-aria
12:57:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
12:57:18 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:57:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:57:19 <trackbot> Date: 30 April 2015
12:57:19 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub-aria
12:57:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
12:59:19 <tzviya> meeting: DPUB ARIA Task Force
12:59:26 <tzviya> scribenick: tzviya
12:59:37 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
13:00:30 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:00:30 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
13:00:39 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:00:39 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I don't know what conference this is
13:00:43 <janina> zakim, code?
13:00:43 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
13:00:51 <janina> trackbot, start meeting
13:00:52 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #dpub-aria
13:00:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
13:00:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:00:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 60 minutes
13:00:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:00:56 <trackbot> Date: 30 April 2015
13:01:02 <ivan> ??????
13:01:07 <janina> zakim, make log public
13:01:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make log public', janina
13:01:07 <ivan> in 60 minutes?
13:01:15 <janina> zakim, code?
13:01:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), janina
13:01:15 <ShaneM> now
13:01:27 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:01:27 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:01:59 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:01:59 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:02:11 <janina> zakim, this will be 2742
13:02:11 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
13:02:36 <janina> zakim, who's here?
13:02:36 <Zakim> WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM has not yet started, janina
13:02:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see mgarrish, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, mgylling, ivan, janina, MichaelC, ShaneM, trackbot
13:02:42 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #dpub-aria
13:02:43 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)
13:02:43 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM already started
13:02:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
13:02:47 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
13:02:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
13:02:58 <janina> zakim, who's here?
13:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Tzviya, ??P1, [IPcaller], ??P3, +1.512.445.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Ivan
13:03:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Susann_Keohane, mgarrish, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, mgylling, ivan, janina, MichaelC, ShaneM, trackbot
13:03:07 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
13:03:19 <mgarrish> zakim, IPcaller is mgarrish
13:03:19 <Zakim> +mgarrish; got it
13:03:27 <janina> zakim, ??P1 is me
13:03:27 <Zakim> +janina; got it
13:03:28 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P3
13:03:28 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:03:34 <Susann_Keohane> zakim, aaaa is Susann_Keohane
13:03:34 <Zakim> +Susann_Keohane; got it
13:03:43 <Zakim> +Markus
13:03:54 <MichaelC> zakim, shane is janina
13:03:54 <Zakim> +janina; got it
13:04:00 <MichaelC> zakim, temp is ShaneM
13:04:00 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:04:14 <tzviya> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:04:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Tzviya, ShaneM, mgarrish, janina, Susann_Keohane, Michael_Cooper, Ivan, Markus
13:05:26 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/50#issuecomment-97711840
13:07:01 <tzviya> tzviya: Michael Smith essentially said that he will not put this (extended roles)into validator
13:07:19 <tzviya> Janina: Will the views of one person hold up the work of W3C?
13:08:20 <tzviya> Ivan: He has a lot of influence over HTML WG
13:08:35 <MichaelC> q+
13:08:41 <tzviya> ack Mi
13:09:13 <MichaelC> q+ to separate architectural issues from vocabulary issues
13:09:24 <tzviya> ShaneM: agree that adding attribute like role-vocab would unneeded complexity to validator
13:10:19 <tzviya> ...W3C has essentially deprecated the validator. There has been a policy decision that UAs know how to deal with invalid content
13:10:27 <MichaelC> ack me
13:10:27 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to separate architectural issues from vocabulary issues
13:10:27 <ivan> q+
13:10:28 <tzviya> ack Mi
13:10:32 <janina> q+
13:11:15 <tzviya> MichaelC: The architectual issue that's a concern for validator is out of scope for this TF. Must sort it out in ARIA TF.
13:11:31 <tzviya> ...Can we find a way for DPUB to publish?
13:11:59 <mgylling> q?
13:12:40 <MichaelC> ack me
13:13:28 <MichaelC> q+ to say a hobbled spec still can collect feedback, and we want that
13:13:31 <tzviya> tzviya: DPUB has great concerns about publishing the spec as it is. We agreed to flag any issues in the terms, and there are issues on close to half the terms.
13:14:03 <tzviya> ivan: the issue of ARIA extensibility is separate, but we are concerned with the flurry of issues raised in the last few days
13:14:17 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about the scope of ARIA
13:14:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:14:50 <tzviya> ...the essential issues raised are that the scope of ARIA should be wider than basic definition of HTML tag, i.e. add info about HTML content
13:15:09 <tzviya> ...and this info is v important for a11y in general
13:15:25 <tzviya> ...may not have IMMEDIATE interest for AT today
13:15:57 <tzviya> ...IF PF view is that ARIA is for AT only, than we should not continue on this path
13:16:02 <tzviya> ack ivan
13:16:05 <tzviya> ack Janina
13:16:05 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to talk about the scope of ARIA
13:16:34 <MichaelC> q+ to say JC doesn´t speak for PF, he speaks for himself - there isn´t an official PF view afaik
13:16:46 <tzviya> janina: we need to start socializing architeture of ARIA - perhaps TPAC plenary session
13:17:09 <tzviya> ...acknowledge validation concerns of validation
13:17:17 <MichaelC> q+ to say we need to more clearly *develop* an architecture for ARIA extension
13:18:01 <tzviya> ...ARIA is about supporting full a11y, not just AT. Curb cuts are for strollers too
13:18:23 <MichaelC> q+ to say role was meant to be more extensible but we were the ones who got hobbled on that
13:18:36 <tzviya> ...ARIA expects to be around for a while. It will not be around for a while
13:18:45 <tzviya> s/will not/will
13:19:01 <MichaelC> q+ to say it´s normal to publish with links to issue tracker and not too many flags
13:19:04 <MichaelC> ack me
13:19:04 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say a hobbled spec still can collect feedback, and we want that and to say JC doesn´t speak for PF, he speaks for himself - there isn´t an official
13:19:04 <Zakim> ... PF view afaik and to say we need to more clearly *develop* an architecture for ARIA extension and to say role was meant to be more extensible but we were the ones who got
13:19:04 <Zakim> ... hobbled on that and to say it´s normal to publish with links to issue tracker and not too many flags
13:19:29 <tzviya> Janina: I don't know about publishing a spec with so many flags, especially all from one person
13:19:56 <tzviya> MichaelC: We understand concerns about hobbled spec, but it is worth publishing to get feedback
13:20:06 <tzviya> ...James is offering his opinion
13:20:36 <tzviya> ...There is not a model for ARIA extension. We need to dev an architecture for ARIA extension.
13:20:48 <ivan> q+
13:21:07 <tzviya> ...The role attr has always been intended for extensibility.
13:21:53 <tzviya> ...It's normal for a spec to say that there are open issues, see issue tracker. Worthwhile to put issue
13:22:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.1/#mapping_role_table
13:22:24 <tzviya> ... flags on specific contentious issues, but no need to flag all issues
13:22:26 <tzviya> ack ri
13:23:30 <tzviya> rich: need to avoid incorrect semantic info for role values
13:23:42 <tzviya> ...we cannot break AT
13:24:45 <tzviya> Tzviya: we are supposed to be doing a mapping document as well
13:25:38 <tzviya> Rich: The terms may need to be disambiguated so that "part" of book and "part" of airplane can be distinguished
13:25:46 <ShaneM> q+ to mention that the expanded value for a role name should be a URI.  Then ATs know EXACTLY what it means
13:25:50 <tzviya> ack ivan
13:26:00 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here?
13:26:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Tzviya, ShaneM, mgarrish, janina, Susann_Keohane, Michael_Cooper (muted), Ivan, Markus
13:26:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see Susann_Keohane, mgarrish, tzviya, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, mgylling, ivan, janina, MichaelC, ShaneM, trackbot
13:26:11 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/50#issue-71671785
13:26:16 <ivan> The DPUB abstract role is unnecessary for accessibility. This is a simple section/chapter/region, etc. whose additional semantics are clearly conveyed by the labeling heading (usually "Abstract")
13:26:46 <tzviya> ivan: Yes, there must be a method for disambiguating. This is a question, not of disambiguity, but *WHAT* the roles are
13:26:56 <ShaneM> q?
13:26:56 <janina> ~q+
13:27:06 <ShaneM> q+
13:27:12 <MichaelC> q+ shane
13:28:01 <tzviya> rich: DPUB is trying to deliver something to publishing community, and others are so tightly controlling vocab that cannot
13:28:03 <tzviya> ack Janina
13:28:03 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to mention that the expanded value for a role name should be a URI.  Then ATs know EXACTLY what it means and to
13:28:24 <tzviya> Janina: I disagree w assertion that these terms are not important for a11y
13:29:16 <ShaneM> q+ shane to point out that this is NOT in scope for DPUB
13:29:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:29:41 <tzviya> ack Shane
13:29:41 <Zakim> shane, you wanted to point out that this is NOT in scope for DPUB
13:30:27 <tzviya> Shane: meta issues are not DPUB's problem
13:31:23 <tzviya> ack Rich
13:32:03 <tzviya> Rich: the reason for the TFs is to avoid such tight control that we avoid innovation
13:32:33 <tzviya> ...we must avoid breaking AT and address extensibility
13:33:16 <tzviya> tzviya: what is the next step?
13:33:23 <ShaneM> I just want to point out that in the github thread where people are talking about what things are needed for A11Y or not, James Craig points out that adding aliases for existing roles is trivial in implementations.
13:34:02 <tzviya> rich: we need to address extension mechanism
13:34:40 <MichaelC> q+ to say publish vocab
13:34:54 <tzviya> tzviya: DPUB might want to hold off on publishing anything until there is more to say about extension mechanism
13:35:20 <ShaneM> q+ to say that I proposed an extension architecture to PF weeks ago.  It needs to be debated / agreed upon.
13:35:34 <ShaneM> q+ shane to say that I proposed an extension architecture to PF weeks ago.  It needs to be debated / agreed upon.
13:35:38 <tzviya> markus: to avoid this taking so much time, we would want to hold off until there is some clarity on extensibility mechanism
13:35:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/role-attribute/
13:35:48 <tzviya> ...as well as some clarity on @role
13:36:20 <MichaelC> ack me
13:36:21 <tzviya> ...once we have some clarity, we can put more time into this
13:36:22 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say publish vocab
13:36:26 <tzviya> ack Mic
13:36:42 <tzviya> Michael: main interest of this group is the roles
13:37:23 <tzviya> ...maybe we can pull back and remove some of the language around module stuff
13:37:27 <ivan> q+
13:37:35 <tzviya> ...identify the terms that will eventually become a moduel
13:37:44 <tzviya> ...would that work?
13:38:05 <tzviya> markus: i wish we had that idea 6 months ago
13:38:16 <tzviya> janina: don't want to give up
13:38:23 <mgylling> q+ to say that it is solvable, if we do things in the right order
13:38:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> The role attribute takes as its value one or more whitespace separated TERMorCURIEorAbsIRIs, which is defined in [RDFA-CORE]. Each component of the value maps to an IRI that corresponds to a vocabulary term that SHOULD be defined using RDF.
13:38:33 <tzviya> ack janina
13:38:33 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to say that I proposed an extension architecture to PF weeks ago.  It needs to be debated / agreed upon.
13:39:15 <tzviya> ivan: we are bound to HTML 5
13:39:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:39:32 <tzviya> ...relying on doc that we know is rejected by them is not reliable
13:39:36 <tzviya> ack Sh
13:39:36 <Zakim> shane, you wanted to say that I proposed an extension architecture to PF weeks ago.  It needs to be debated / agreed upon.
13:40:37 <tzviya> shane: PF is working on solving this problem
13:41:23 <tzviya> Ivan: my problem with what Michael proposed is that if we propose list of terms prior to clarifying extension mech and @role
13:41:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:41:36 <ivan> ack ivan
13:41:41 <tzviya> ...then we will get comments like the ones we have seen in the past few days
13:42:53 <ivan> ack mgylling
13:42:53 <Zakim> mgylling, you wanted to say that it is solvable, if we do things in the right order
13:42:56 <tzviya> Tzviya: We are not recommending doing away with the draft, just leaving it alone until the extension mech and scope of ARIA is clarified
13:43:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack mgylling
13:43:12 <tzviya> markus: we do think this is solvable
13:43:37 <tzviya> ...the list of terms would have been great up front, but we don't have resources for major refactoring right now
13:43:53 <tzviya> ...we would like to make sure that fundamental issues are addressed by community
13:43:56 <tzviya> ack ri
13:45:09 <tzviya> rich: next step is extension mechanism
13:45:17 <MichaelC> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0160.html Extension specifications / modules vs. ARIA Core (ACTION-1618)
13:45:19 <janina> PF Archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/
13:46:06 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2015Apr/0042.html
13:46:22 <MichaelC> ^ better URI to same message for *this* group
13:47:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:48:06 <tzviya> tzviya: DPUB can help out with arguments for extensibility
13:48:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> myvocab-myrole
13:48:36 <mgylling> … and with arguments for non-AT usage scope
13:48:58 <tzviya> ...what are the next steps for this group?
13:51:31 <tzviya> michaelC: we shouldn't assume that the outcome of last negotiation with HTML is a concern
13:51:40 <tzviya> ...need to renegotiate
13:52:13 <ShaneM> q?
13:52:18 <tzviya> tzviya: this is the last DPUB ARIA meeting for a time
13:52:30 <MichaelC> q+ to keep mailing list open, copy relevant ARIA discussions
13:52:55 <ivan> +1 to Michael
13:53:09 <MichaelC> ack me
13:53:09 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to keep mailing list open, copy relevant ARIA discussions
13:53:18 <tzviya> rich: anything that goes into ARIA core is open for scrutiny, module should not be reviewed to this extent
13:53:44 <tzviya> michael: we will abandon this call slot, leave the email list open
13:54:03 <tzviya> ...copy list on pertinent issues, when this is discussed
13:54:21 <tzviya> ivan: the DPUB IG is being rechartered as well
13:54:55 <tzviya> ...the draft for now includes work on this, but we will have minor admin hiccups as well
13:55:07 <tzviya> ...should have updated charter in september
13:56:47 <tzviya> tzviya: PF will inform some members that we are not going to FPWD at this point, DPUB will inform membership
13:57:13 <Zakim> -ShaneM
13:57:17 <Zakim> -Susann_Keohane
13:57:18 <Zakim> -mgarrish
13:57:18 <Zakim> -Ivan
13:57:20 <Zakim> -Markus
13:57:20 <Zakim> -Tzviya
13:57:21 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:57:23 <Zakim> -janina
13:57:23 <tzviya> RRSagent, make minutes
13:57:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-dpub-aria-minutes.html tzviya
13:57:29 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
13:57:30 <Zakim> WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM has ended
13:57:30 <Zakim> Attendees were Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Tzviya, +1.512.445.aaaa, Ivan, Michael_Cooper, mgarrish, ShaneM, Susann_Keohane, Markus, janina
13:58:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/709
14:06:49 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub-aria
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