07:19:18 RRSAgent has joined #wot 07:19:18 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-irc 07:19:40 Meeting: WoT IG F2F 07:20:34 kaz has joined #wot 07:21:24 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:21:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html tidoust 07:21:37 we have the registration info, and Siemens will have a complete list 07:21:39 Chair: Dave Raggett & Jeorg Heuer 07:21:50 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:22:33 Sebastian has joined #wot 07:25:19 scribe: tidoust 07:25:23 Topic: Introduction 07:25:23 Joerg: [going through the agenda] 07:25:23 Topic: Smart control of washing machine 07:25:23 Dave: It's a smart power example. User wants to wash clothes, over night to reduce power cost. Washing machine has very simple user controls as you do not want to complicate things there. 07:25:24 ... The idea is thus to deport advanced settings to a remote UI, for instance on a tablet. 07:25:24 ... The machine has some ability to sense what might soon break, how many times it was overload. Privacy issue when it comes to sharing info with the manufacturer for warranty purpose. 07:25:27 ... [going through the rest of the description on the Wiki] 07:25:31 Joerg: Questions or comments? Probably we will discuss the balance between use cases as proof points and whether it's realistic. Balance between future-oriented and realistic today. 07:25:34 Carsten: Once we start using these use cases, perhaps not this one in particular, it would be important to answer questions such as how many sensor devices does that require. 07:25:37 @1: @2 07:25:39 Joerg: We have to agree on the best way to use these use cases. 07:29:47 Topic: Automated shutters 07:29:47 Joerg: User controls the shades of shutters. Interaction with the light. The expected behavior is very individual. When devices are installed at home, there is a discovery challenge, and then the user must have some way to adjust rules. From the technical point of view, there must be automated means to create mashups between the things and web based information (e.g. daylight). Some aspects not considered [see Wiki], including installation and what happens if somethi 07:29:48 ng goes wrong. 07:29:48 Frank: combinaison? 07:29:49 Joerg: It might be interesting to really collect. I'm looking forward to seeing how we're going to use this use case. 07:31:45 Kaz: How to identify reviewers for each use case? In the Web and TV IG, use cases are reviewed, sometimes by 4-5 reviewers. 07:32:04 Joerg: True, I think it would be really useful to do that. 07:32:36 Kaz: A starting point might be to have one individual reviewer for each use case. Also it might be useful to have the name of the person who makes a comment next to the comment. 07:32:57 Alan has joined #wot 07:33:00 Joerg: Right. I try to have a list of inputs first, but that seems useful, yes. 07:33:18 (use cases) Public transport info via physical web: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2015Apr/0037.html 07:34:01 Topic: Public transport info via physical web 07:35:05 fsasaki has joined #wot 07:35:16 Wonsuk: Many people in the room probably already know about the Physical Web concept by Google. When someone wants to share some info or service in a public place, he may install a beacon that broadcasts a URL. 07:35:20 JonathanJ1 has joined #wot 07:35:56 ... If the user goes to the place, the phone may pick up the signal and alert the user about the service. 07:36:20 ... The browser then dereferences the URL. 07:36:43 ... If may display bus information, tax service. 07:37:09 ... It's just a hyperlink followed by some instruction about the service, very similar to a search engine in some ways. 07:37:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:37:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html JonathanJ1 07:38:00 ... In case of a beverage machine, we can imagine that the user sees the menu, makes his choice and pays through his mobile phone. Lots of different use cases. 07:39:58 ... One of the key considering issues is the security issue. If an attacker puts a beacon that broadcasts a URL to a malware Web site, the user could be tricked into going to that Web site. 07:41:15 Bernard: Could we consider this use case as a framework infrastructure environment and the other one as home automation. Does this one fit in transportation or generic infrastructure? 07:41:53 Wonsuk: Good question. This kind of architecture would be useful for home automation too. 07:43:10 Osamu: Very good point about authentication. We need some authentication mechanism. If using the home network, question is "what is a local network" especially when many devices connect to that network. So authentication is key. 07:44:12 Oliver_Pfaff: Let's assume I receive a notification on my mobile phone and I want to interact with that service. When doing that, would that be a direct interaction with the component or would a broker component be an option? 07:45:59 Wonsuk: Good point. Google users can filter which results appear near the top. In case of beacons, we may expect that devices can recognize the distance between the device and the beacon. That would make one of the important factor to sort results. 07:46:09 s/important factor/important factors/ 07:47:41 Johannes: Malware could be a problem. Physical Web allows anyone to post URLs everywhere. I think what is missing in the setup so far is some kind of user preferences to filter out what is not interesting. 07:48:47 Joerg: I would propose that you make some additional notes from this discussion, Wonsuk, so that we can come back to it. Can you be the maintainer of the use case? 07:48:51 Wonsuk: Sure. 07:50:19 Topic: Remote health monitoring system 07:50:20 Such filtering needs to be context dependent. 07:51:07 Claes: This use case is about remote health monitoring. In this example, an old man has sensors to detect fall using accelerometers for instance. 07:52:03 ... There is a server in the cloud, health facility server. The connection to the cloud could be Bluetooth LE, direct communication, 3GPP MTC, etc. 07:52:32 ... Prior to everything, there is an authorization phase. A normal Web browser would be used for that. 07:52:54 taki1 has joined #wot 07:53:55 ... Looking at technical issues, lots of talks of IPv6 as each WoT device can have an IP6 address. [going through the list of issues]. We're investigating whether OAuth could be used for authorization. 07:54:22 ... If we use CoAP, what are the impacts? Do we need a proxy? 07:54:57 Dave: What is 3GPP MTC? 07:55:28 Claes: It provides IPv6 mobile network access to IoT devices. Network experts in my company think it has a lot of potential. 07:55:40 Dave: How does that compare with LTN? 07:55:48 Claes: I do not know. 07:56:39 LTN is an ETSI specification for low through put networks, which is a bit like a long range version of BLE 07:56:50 Joerg: It makes sense to capture the relevant technologies that you listed on your slides in the textual description. 07:58:29 Topic: Community-based Flood monitoring 07:59:02 Edoardo: Slides extend what I shared on the mailing-list on Friday. 07:59:43 Present+ Wonsuk_Lee 07:59:50 ... Flood warning systems are often based on blanket reports based on sensors deployed. It is important to understand things at the street level but infrastructure is not there. The goal is thus is to use a community-based approach. 08:00:49 Edoardo: Things in this domain are either fixed sensors or mobile sensors (attached to a drone for instance). Mobility aspect is potentially interesting. 08:00:56 dromasca has joined #wot 08:01:02 ... These sensors use low-power radio technologies. 08:01:16 ... There are gateways as well, which you need to monitor as well. 08:02:07 ... Then there are other things that you want to monitor such as rivers and canals, roads and railways, geographical areas, buildings. 08:02:29 ... I'm just going through a broad list of things that are important to the use case here. 08:02:40 ... What can be made smarter? 08:02:57 s/... Flood warning systems/Edoardo: Flood warning systems/ 08:03:28 Edoardo: We can understand correlations between events, improve accuracy, etc. 08:03:55 ... The use case touches upon different domains, transportation of course, business, climate as well. 08:04:22 ... Are there solutions today? There are sensors but they are very expensive and expensive to run as well. 08:05:40 ... [going through interaction between things] 08:06:27 ... Many stakeholders are involved in the use case, starting from the general public, but also media to report accurately on such events, local authority to organize response, etc. 08:07:48 Joerg: what is interesting with this use case is that it is a real-world use case. Quite helpful as it provides lots of background information. 08:08:10 ... Could you merge the slides with the textual description? 08:08:25 Edoardo: Yes. 08:09:29 Joerg: It's clear that it originates from sensors, but defenses introduce actuators. 08:10:09 Edoardo: Lots of potential case studies. Monitoring is one, control of defenses another one. I'm happy to extrapolate if that can be useful. 08:11:11 ... In a previous W3C effort, another person was curating the inputs provided. It proved useful, so I wonder whether a similar approach could be useful here as well. Just a thought. 08:12:29 Topic: Use case from the Waternomics project 08:12:47 @3: Motivation for the user is to lower the water consumption. 08:13:25 ... The user would set a monthly target and be kept aware of his consumption along with recommendations from the Web about best ways to improve consumption. 08:13:50 s/@3/Souleiman/ 08:15:09 Souleiman: First step is configuration. User has to set URLs to sensors, which are then registered with the home water management provider (POST request). 08:15:32 ... The user can interact with the home water management service to set the monthly target. 08:15:55 ... Then the sensors push events (JSON-LD could be used for the data) to the service. 08:16:10 ... The cloud service can do some aggregation logic at this step. 08:16:52 ... The user can then check the consumption. Also note that the things themselves could interact with the service. 08:17:20 ... Based on that info, the thing could communicate with the user to advise him to use another program for instance. 08:18:10 Johannes: You mentioned that main idea is sensing with some acting. 08:18:30 ... Any further thoughts on automation? 08:18:46 Souleiman: I think that's an extension to this use case 08:19:33 @1: It could be used to postpone some actions based on actions that are already running at the same time. 08:20:59 @4: Looking at the application layer. The model of a tap continously pushing data on low-throughput networks. Throttling events might be needed. 08:21:11 Souleiman: I think that can be a part of the configuration phase. 08:23:02 Souleiman: I wanted to touch on something else. Event producers and consumers are semantically coupled. The original rationale for decoupling was scalability. [going through a set of slides to introduce models] 08:24:16 ... [mentions free tagging, a scalable way of tagging since users do not have to agree on tags, could be used for thingsonomy as well] 08:26:02 ... [scribe confesses being lost] 08:27:00 ... For the WoT IG, the conclusion is to have a minimal description of format and semantics but leaves freedoms for things and events descriptions to enable some sort of free tagging. 08:28:10 Joerg: Could you turn the use case into a textual description? I'm not sure where it stops to be a use case and when it starts to be the description of an application. 08:28:22 ... Maybe it should stay high level. 08:28:47 [session break] 08:47:13 JAB has joined #wot 08:51:09 dsr has joined #wot 08:54:12 Topic: Background of Japanese participants 08:55:09 Kaz: Our goal is smart homes use cases for actual use. [presenting slides] 08:56:39 ... Would a Smart Home TF be a good idea? This could discuss basic architecture, possible APIs. Common platform based on use cases. Several concrete ideas from Panasonic and Fujitsu. 08:56:49 Joerg: Any special request to take some action? 08:57:14 Kaz: We can talk about it tomorrow during the TF discussion. 08:57:32 Horizontal technical requirements and vertical business sector orientation 08:58:43 Topic: Use case for Home automation and architecture 08:59:33 Takuki: I have been more invovled in XML technologies (XML, XML schemas, EXI) in W3C. 09:00:12 ... For home automation, the goal is to make things more comfortable or more efficient. 09:00:48 robert has joined #wot 09:00:59 OpenADR - VTN (top node) VEN (end node) 09:01:00 ... One example is OpenADR (originating in California but now deployed worldwide). Each VTN talks to VEN (applications). 09:01:20 ... Application run on top of devices. That's one possible configuration. 09:01:39 ... Another possibility is to have applications run on IoT devices. 09:01:59 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Automated_Demand_Response) 09:02:57 Takuki: In each case, those VENs have to support various protocols to talk to each other. 09:03:20 ... [presenting schematic view] 09:03:52 ... Applications need to be able to identify and operate devices through the intermediate layer of platforms. 09:05:17 ... One important aspect of standardisation work is to enable the division of work: we can work on the device interfaces, on the application interfaces, or on the abstract devices interfaces. 09:05:25 ... This is something important to keep in mind. 09:06:00 ... I wanted to mention briefly that there is already one realted standard named ITU-T Y.2070 that has become a recommendation this year. 09:06:14 ... It defines the overall architecture. 09:08:45 Joerg: The architectural discussion is interesting but should remain separate from the use cases discussions. 09:09:06 ... I would propose to separate things here. One part on the use case. A second part on the architecture. 09:09:30 ... I think Dave has some parts in his slides, you have some, Carsten has some as well. It makes sense to bring them together. 09:09:50 Dave: It relates to IG deliverables. One on use cases, one of the architecture. 09:10:23 Joerg: Would it make sense to have a breakout session on architecture design? 09:10:27 Takuki: Yes. 09:11:58 Topic: Easy connection between smpartphone and peripheral devices 09:13:09 Kazuaki: The use case is house calls by caregivers. Patients have their own devices and can report them to back-end reporting services. 09:13:50 ... In that case, the goal is to connect automatically the mobile phone and the back-end service. 09:14:52 ... It is important to have building blocks that are OS-free and device-free, both for device drivers and for applications. 09:16:16 ... Right now, connection requires dedicated applications for each type of device, leading to development costs and cumbersome user experience who has to download the application which we'd rather avoid if possible. 09:17:15 ... What we think is needed: a Web-type driver architecture, and device plug and play manager to handle discovery and dynamic driver distribution. 09:17:37 ... It would make everyone's business easier. 09:18:58 Claes: What you consider as device drivers, how do you define drivers? From the perspective I'm thinking, we need basic connectivity in the smartphone, e.g. Zigbee, then protocols on top of that. 09:20:19 Kazuaki: I think you're talking about the connection to the Wifi network. We need access from the browser. 09:21:25 Dave: exposing that in the browser seems to trigger security issue. However doing the same thing on gateways or other devices might be a better idea. 09:22:32 Carston: you need authorizaton, access control to devices. You really have to look at all the ends of the authorization space. 09:23:05 [access control on resources] 09:24:23 Alan has joined #WoT 09:24:25 Johannes: You also mention the upper side. I think we can broaden the scope to more than phones there. The goal would be to specify APIs to that developers do not need to care about the device model. 09:26:29 Joerg: 4 elements. The use case you started with. It's important to capture it. Then some discussion for tomorrow on device driver to define that. I'm not proposing to start a generic term definition section but to define terms when they arise. 09:27:15 ... The security discussion. How to deal with security question? To my understanding, this is some kind of take-care task. It can be part of the building block discussion. 09:29:00 ... I think it would be worth to work further on these points. 09:30:27 Oliver_Pfaff: I wanted to suggest that this should not be captured as free text but rather as a bullet list. 09:31:37 Edoardo: Axes for use cases with a matrix of requirements, to be able to strike use cases when requirements are already in the matrix. 09:31:53 dape2 has joined #wot 09:32:32 Joerg: The security primitive approach is worth exploring. 09:33:23 Topic: Home automation 09:33:43 Kazuo: I made a presentation yesterday about home automation. 09:34:16 ... It think some of the requirements make assumptions on the architecture. 09:34:39 ... We already have many IoT organizations worldwide. 09:35:27 ... Scheme, framework and semantics fit well in W3C. Home network approach has many regional organizations (Echonet, ZigBee, AllSee Alliance, Smart TV Alliance, etc.) 09:35:57 s/AllSee/AllSeen/ 09:35:58 ... Then OS, Platform approach: Thread, Apple HomeKit, Smartthings, ARM mbded, most in the US. 09:36:42 Kazuo: For applications: Home Connect, iControl, Control4, HomeChat 09:37:12 ... [presenting a matrix crossing organizations and players] 09:38:10 ... For UX devices, the application/cloud interface is type 1, with several organization working on that, including W3C. 09:39:43 ... However, devices do not necessarily support HTTP so some sort of interfaces are required to bridge with the cloud of virtual thing representations (Type3) and with underlying devices (Type4). 09:40:46 ... Another possible direct connected architecture would have the client HTML5 device directly access peripheral devices through relevant APIs (Type2). 09:41:12 ... I'm wondering which approach to use. 09:42:15 Joerg: We will have some additional contributions in the upcoming session this afternoon. 09:42:36 Dave: We have different slides, we need to compare them with each other. 09:46:48 compare architecture slides and work towards a common architecture 09:47:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:47:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html tidoust 09:57:08 JAB has joined #WoT 10:02:48 Alan has joined #WoT 10:37:23 tidoust has joined #wot 10:56:22 dape has joined #wot 10:56:37 dsr has joined #wot 10:57:44 robert has joined #wot 10:58:35 topic: Day1 - PM1 10:58:58 topic: Robert 10:59:16 scribenick: kaz 11:00:03 robert: use cases on universal discovery and control of smart home devices 11:00:41 s/Robert/Universal discovery and control of smart home devices, Robert Kleinfeld/ 11:00:49 ryuichi has joined #wot 11:01:03 robert: attach beacons with physical devices 11:01:09 ... discovery of devices 11:01:18 ... interact with devices 11:01:36 ... BLE, mDNS, UPnP and SSDP 11:02:05 ... via IoT gateways, etc. 11:02:23 ... access control and authorization 11:02:27 ... device spam 11:03:00 ... next step is how to build the mashups 11:03:22 ... ideas on discovery 11:03:42 ... generic approach for discovery 11:03:56 ... regardless of network protocols 11:04:09 ... also entire architecture 11:04:37 wonsuk has joined #wot 11:04:39 ... how to make devices from different vendors interact with each other 11:05:01 ... dedicated discussion on discovery during the breakout session 11:05:21 Joerg: comments? 11:05:52 ken: agree we need such discovery capability is the basis for home automation use cases 11:06:44 ... devices and users are located within a specific local network regarding home automation use cases in Japan 11:07:00 ... but these days remotely connected devices are started to be considered 11:07:25 robert: not only discovery for a local network but for that kind of situation as well 11:07:50 evrythng:there are many technologies for discovery 11:08:09 [discovery where devices may be on wifi, BLE, cellular network etc] 11:08:16 robert: this is a middle layer 11:08:41 ... how to bring this later to the reality 11:09:02 ... Google physical Web project is related to mDNS 11:09:36 claes: bluetooth? 11:09:47 robert: to support both 11:10:12 carsten: authorization 11:10:21 ... discovery needs to be authorized 11:10:25 robert: right 11:10:38 crsten: IoT devices for home area were simple so far 11:10:44 ... that is problematic 11:11:00 ... children at home might want to use the system 11:11:13 ... need to give a way for authorization 11:11:36 s/evrythng/dominique/ 11:11:55 ph: wanted to note that we have a work on discovery within w3c 11:12:05 ... have you checked it? 11:12:16 [discovery authoriation is related to privacy] 11:12:28 robert: not yet 11:12:29 s/authoriation/authorization/ 11:13:03 Joerg: comments? 11:13:11 ... quite an interesting use case 11:13:22 ... two notions 11:13:28 [DAP WG old work on network service discovery] 11:13:54 ... probably available for multiple domains 11:14:00 dape2 has joined #wot 11:14:13 ... tightly covered by domain use cases 11:14:41 ... important to link this with domain use cases 11:14:53 ... how to proceed? 11:15:14 ... might want to have a matrix for that purpose 11:15:25 robert: ok 11:15:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:15:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html kaz 11:16:04 topic: Dominique 11:16:10 Claes has joined #wot 11:16:45 s/Dominique/Considering Fast Moving Consumer Goods in the Web o Things, Dominique/ 11:16:49 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:16:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html kaz 11:17:09 (2 100% sciences) 11:17:39 dominique: what's interesting is there are things which are not really "electric" 11:17:58 (3 on the Internet, nobody...) 11:18:17 (5: What IoT really used to stand for...) 11:18:35 donique: would think about that 11:18:47 (6: Sales of potentially connected objects, 2013) 11:18:55 s/donique:/dominique:/ 11:19:05 (7: USE CASES) 11:19:16 dom: fast moving consumer things 11:19:27 ... one day or one month 11:19:37 (8: Smarter homes) 11:19:51 dom: laundry liquid talks with washing machine 11:20:03 ... many companies implement this kind of things 11:20:16 (9: A smart fridge -, really!) 11:20:26 s/-,/- no,/ 11:20:53 dom: this could happen if all the fast consumer things have ID 11:21:03 (10: An even smarter fridge!) 11:21:12 dom: fridge reads the data 11:21:21 (11: Smart insurances) 11:21:35 dom: what if you could register all the things? 11:21:40 (12: Smarter products) 11:22:14 dom: smart bottles 11:22:35 (13: BLE, Physical Web and iBeacons: FMCG discovery) 11:22:47 dom: coke bottles and physical web 11:23:08 s/(2/(2:/ 11:23:16 s/(3/(3:/ 11:23:24 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:23:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html kaz 11:23:58 osamu: do you mean interaction with PC network? 11:24:10 dom: internet technology 11:24:17 ... not necessarily Web 11:24:34 ... transform proprietary identities to Web identities 11:25:02 ... bring to the broader spectrum 11:25:07 s/PC/EPC/ 11:25:41 dsr: the idea of Semantic Web 11:25:51 dom: very interesting 11:27:15 Joerg: you have a perspective of physical things 11:27:29 ... identifying patterns would be helpful 11:27:55 ... to understand this use case 11:28:01 robert: discovery is a bit different 11:28:08 ... from normal IoT devices 11:28:19 ... recognition of barcodes 11:28:29 ... we embed URLs 11:28:34 ... using NFC tags, etc. 11:28:50 ... underlying technologies differ with each other 11:29:02 ... how to retrieve the data and consume it? 11:29:35 Joerg: it could be used for smart things 11:30:02 ... it would be helpful if you could describe the patter a bit more in detail 11:30:18 carsten: caring about the class of things 11:30:24 ... and type of washing machine 11:30:40 ... need to talk with specific instances 11:30:56 s/robert:/dom:/ 11:31:26 dom: some of them are not serialized while some are serialized 11:31:51 ... things like cosmetics 11:32:01 ... there is a special relationship 11:32:34 Joerg: use case from Martin yesterday 11:32:54 ... smart devices which track indivisually 11:32:56 [object histories with perhaps more than one persona per object] 11:33:35 frank: customers hate to @@@ 11:33:51 dom: need a specific serialization way 11:33:59 s/@@@/install lots of apps rather just one/ 11:33:59 ... for identification 11:34:18 ... this is part of the discussion afterwards 11:34:54 ... combining unique identities 11:35:43 objects may have different associated meanings to different people, which opens lots of possibilities 11:35:50 Joerg: how we bring this into the shape for use cases? 11:36:17 ... we're not doing only use cases 11:36:34 ... we're interested in how to use them 11:37:12 ... a proposal: not focusing on each use case, but think about a set of them 11:37:20 ... steps with iteration 11:37:29 ... to see if we're correct 11:37:44 ... can we bring this to a document? 11:37:52 ... and bring them together 11:38:00 ... we talked about a matrix this morning 11:38:48 topic: Document structure for dissemination of use cases, Johannes 11:39:13 jh: how can we disseminate use cases? 11:39:32 ... actual structure 11:39:49 (3: Use cases are our reality check for technology picks) 11:40:03 jh: Why do we collect use cases? 11:40:09 ... what technology is relevant? 11:40:13 ... how to fit? 11:40:42 ... appear in different use cases in different scenarios 11:41:29 (4: The future applications cannot be forseen now therefore we need reusable building blocks) 11:41:51 jh: Tim didn't have cat videos in mind :) 11:42:12 ... different kinds of applications in the future 11:42:35 (6: Use cases and technologies are linked throught technological building blocks) 11:42:43 jh: same building blocks 11:43:21 (8: Examples for linking technologies, use cases and building blocks) 11:43:27 jh: how to do that? 11:44:12 ... discovery: QR code, Pysical Web, UPnP, mDNS 11:44:34 (9: Examples for evaluating technology picks on the use cases) 11:44:52 table of UPnP, QR code, Pysical web and mDNS 11:45:08 jh: comparing use cases in the scenarios 11:45:16 (11: Document and Sources) 11:45:20 jh: W3C format 11:45:35 ... document itself on Github 11:47:20 -> https://github.com/h0ru5/wot/tree/master/ucr-doc Github repo 11:47:27 jh: anybody can contribute to this 11:47:43 ... and can make comments on the Github repo 11:48:20 (12: How to Contribute) 11:48:34 jh: go to the repo w3c/wot 11:48:42 ... fork the repo to create your local copy 11:48:57 ... add and commit your changes to the fork 11:49:06 (13: Questions?) 11:49:44 dom: one problem is rendering the HTML file 11:50:06 jh: you can simply commit your updated fork 11:50:22 ... we could of course use some tool 11:50:35 ... for more comfortable edit 11:50:46 ... would take some more time, though 11:50:58 dsr: we already have an area for this IG 11:51:19 ... would be useful to use Github to accelerate the group's work 11:51:34 jh: put some guides on the Github repo 11:51:51 dom: the main W3C repo as well? 11:52:30 Joerg: we have topics and matrix for use cases 11:52:39 ... related to this document style 11:52:56 ... this could be a possible solution 11:53:18 jh: Github usual have some issues 11:53:43 s/usual/usually/ 11:54:14 carsten: @@@ 11:54:20 jh: can include HTML structure 11:54:35 carsten: probably as appendix 11:55:15 ... issue tracker mechanism sometimes might be unclear 11:55:39 Alan: industry vs. technology 11:56:25 ... kind of concern 11:56:42 ... huge opportunity space 11:56:46 s/concern/concerned/ 11:57:35 ... who is working on what topic 11:58:01 Joerg: could imagine the urgency 11:58:14 ... assume difficult to understand how to use this 11:58:34 ... what is the value and benefit of the use cases? 11:58:34 s/could/most people in the room can/ 11:58:47 ... who is contributing the use case? 11:59:17 ... we could finalize the issues when we've done the iteration 11:59:56 ... right know providing use case itself is a bit vague 12:00:12 ... hopefully we can finish the first iteration by June or July 12:00:29 ... now we're having very broad discussions 12:00:47 ... want people's input 12:01:15 dsr: what is the best clearest way? 12:01:39 ... use cases across multiple domains 12:01:48 ... the charter has a roadmap 12:02:03 ... would have an architecture document 12:02:34 Joerg: this is a proposal to make progress 12:02:46 ... if you have any concerns, please let us know 12:03:07 ... we stay with email structure comments 12:03:19 ... several people looking at them 12:03:37 ... would ask volunteers who look at this proposal 12:03:52 the charter’s roadmap is now out of date and we need to provide a clear indication of the current roadmap along with a brief introduction to the web of things and matrix diagrams that relate use cases to capabiities, and technical building blocks to business sectors 12:03:58 s/ask/ask for/ 12:04:41 (12: How to contribute) 12:04:46 Joerg: any volunteers from home automation use cases? 12:05:03 ... taking care of contributions using this method? 12:05:12 ... we try this 12:05:43 Kajimoto: (raised his hand) 12:06:00 Joerg: Johannes can help 12:06:17 ... compare to use case discussion 12:07:20 ... would like to start with two parts 12:07:56 ... look at the schedule 12:08:28 ... spend some time for collection of WoT landscape 12:08:36 ... make sense to have an architecture 12:08:50 ... who would participate in the discussion? 12:08:56 (many raise their hands) 12:09:06 Joerg: let's use 20mins to think about this 12:09:25 ... would ask Dom to lead the discussion 12:09:58 ... also would talk during the breakout session 12:10:21 ... could move synch from breakouts could be moved to tomorrow 12:10:56 ... would start the discussion on architecture 12:11:07 s/lead the discussion/show some presentation/ 12:11:22 ... you all may have proposals in your mind 12:12:11 jhund has joined #wot 12:12:50 ... would start with proposed aspects 12:13:20 dsr: can we print out posters? 12:13:42 Joerg: would go through different architecture aspects 12:13:44 jhund has joined #wot 12:13:46 ... and see comments 12:14:20 dsr: would talk about how to make notes 12:14:41 ... fundamental things like IRIs 12:14:48 ... protocols 12:15:01 https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/F2F_meeting:_20-22_April_2015_in_Munich#Background_Materials 12:16:15 cabo has joined #wot 12:16:21 (Joerg starts to write on the flipchart) 12:16:34 s/write/draw a picture/ 12:17:50 Joerg: what kind of topology we have in our mind 12:18:16 cloud, GW and Things 12:19:27 ohsumi has joined #wot 12:20:26 carsten: high cost to upload properties to the GW 12:20:43 ... would focus on the elements which fulfill our requirements 12:23:06 Kajimoto has joined #wot 12:23:16 Joerg: we have constraints 12:23:27 ... what kind of topology is available as step 1 12:23:49 ... there are differences 12:24:23 jhund has joined #wot 12:24:37 carsten: not saying we should not discuss topology 12:24:57 ... browsers use device drivers 12:25:09 ... isolated with our requirements 12:25:15 ... how to get this into WoT? 12:25:26 ... certain minimum requirements 12:25:35 ... hiding device drivers 12:25:50 ken has joined #wot 12:26:44 dom: actually can convert existing device drivers to Web identities 12:26:51 ... regardless of protocols 12:27:20 carsten: there is a difference between GW and Hub 12:27:38 ... upgrading a proxy 12:28:26 ... can translate between two different protocols 12:28:34 ... cross-protocol proxy 12:28:46 ... don't have to touch the proxy 12:29:10 dom: so we can translate between CoAP and Web 12:29:21 ... CoAP is not HTTP 12:29:41 ... if we want to translate it into HTTP, we need a proxy 12:30:24 q+ 12:31:59 Joerg: got important points 12:32:17 ... different elements and topology 12:32:24 q+ 12:32:55 Joerg: things interacting with each other 12:33:36 Joerg: topology element 12:33:52 ... this kind of topology pictures 12:34:15 dsr: each picture you draw has storage 12:34:27 ... maybe need a bit different one 12:35:45 ... would make it as simple as possible 12:36:21 [Web of Things Server] - [Web of Things Server] - [Web of Things Server] 12:36:46 that was the 1st diagram 12:36:50 2nd diagram 12:37:15 [Web of Things Server]-[WoT device] 12:37:40 +- [GW] - [IoT device] 12:37:59 +1 for Dave's view 12:38:06 carsten: would revisit the 1st one 12:38:20 ... resources? 12:38:49 dsr: Web of Things resolve resources 12:38:57 ... may be Web pages 12:39:12 carsten: trying to understand the figure 12:39:43 ... I don't have the URI 12:39:48 dsr: you could have it 12:41:29 ... what do you want to put to this figure? 12:41:38 carsten: providing resources 12:41:49 dsr: resources related to what? 12:42:06 carsten: e.g., temperature of the room 12:42:28 ... I'm not talking with device itself, I'm talking with resources 12:43:21 dsr: I'm talking about abstract things 12:43:33 osamu: is the "Web of Things Server" a new entity? 12:43:49 ... we already have "Web Server" and "Web Browser" 12:44:11 ... this "WEb of Things Server" is a new entity from that viewpoint? 12:44:13 dsr: yes 12:44:46 osamu: would know about the interaction among "Web Server", "Web Browser" and "Web of Things Server" 12:45:17 ... can "Web Server" communicate with "Web of Things Server"? 12:45:35 ... also can "Web Browser" communicate with "Web of Things Server"? 12:45:56 dsr: (@@@didn't cathch) 12:46:13 frank: a device might be connected with a module 12:47:03 dsr: (@@@2) 12:47:20 dom: you're talking about various protocols including HTTP 12:47:32 ... when people ask me about what WoT is 12:47:40 saki has joined #wot 12:48:02 ... we need to know what we want to achieve 12:48:28 dsr: we have talked about various use cases 12:48:59 dom: HTTP is not hard to integrate with WoT 12:49:11 dsr: do people want to use XMPP? 12:49:51 carsten: archtecture doesn't care about protocols 12:50:35 Joerg: would interrupt 12:50:53 ... how to deal with this discussion? 12:51:17 ... need clarification on the 2nd figure 12:51:46 dsr: device might not understand Web 12:52:05 Joerg: multiple devices interact with each other? 12:52:14 I strongly support Dave's view. We need to start as simple as possible with analogy with the existing web. Slide 3-8 in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/w3c-wot-framework-munich-2015.pdf should be the basis for our work. 12:52:15 ... which ones do so? 12:53:12 Joerg: I'd like to follow up this one 12:53:35 ... action for that 12:54:07 dsr: would see proposed architecture ideas and see the differences 12:54:15 ... security model 12:54:20 ... defining protocols 12:54:39 Joerg: how to achieve this? 12:54:51 ... coming back tomorrow morning 12:55:05 cabo has joined #wot 12:55:27 richard: question on Web of Things Server 12:55:40 ... between actual apps and devices 12:55:51 fsasaki has joined #wot 12:55:54 ... what is the actual work? 12:56:09 dsr: need some kind of decoupling 12:56:34 ... need abstraction layer 12:56:54 ... watch, phone, desktop, ... 12:57:03 I think we need clarify the terminology on WoT. What is "Web of Things Server" ? Isn't a Thing ? What is "WoT devices" ? where is WoT Client ? 12:57:50 carsten: physical details 12:58:12 Joerg: taking this as a starting point? 12:58:27 Routers can be useful to abstract away physical details 12:59:34 scribe: tidoust 12:59:35 Kaz: Don't we want to think about requirements for this architecture based on the use cases first? 13:01:21 Joerg: I believe it might be worthwhile to discuss the architecture a bit to have a certain starting point. Then building blocks. 13:01:39 ... I would propose to run discussions in parallel to some extent. 13:02:56 Topic: IoT and WoT 13:03:27 dom: Definition of WoT, goal is to create the most complicated way to switch a light on :) 13:03:49 ... The WoT could be about bringing order by providing guidelines. 13:04:26 ... What if we could just use Web protocols instead of various ones? 13:05:02 ... Questions how do we connect things to the Internet? Already addressed to some extent. How do we connect applications to things is more interesting. 13:05:28 ... Bridging the gap between Web and things should be our mission. 13:05:51 ... My provoking definition of the Web: "If it does not speak JavaScript in the browser, then it's not really Web..." 13:06:14 Carlton: This is known as "Browser Web", not the entire Web, you know? 13:06:24 Dom: Yes. 13:07:19 Dave: Although we have made progress on background processes with Service Workers for instance, the Web in browsers is not designed to run 24/7, which we'll want to address. 13:08:28 Dom: Several aspects that we want to address in COMPOSE and other projects: programmable Web, semantic Web (really important), real-time Web (HTTP-only is not sufficient for some use cases), social Web 13:08:46 ... Another way to look at this is to see that as clusters 13:09:13 ... Level 1 is about access, with different technologies such as URIs, HTTP, WebSockets, NSD, etc. 13:09:23 ... Level 2 is findability 13:09:48 ... How do you discover things and understand what they are about 13:10:20 ... Level 3 is sharing access to the different things, delegating authentication, etc. 13:10:46 ... Level 4 is composition. What if we take these different layers and start to compose things using Node-red for instance. 13:11:10 ... I wanted to put boxes to help us move forward. 13:11:40 Joerg: Thanks for these building boxes. We have something similar in the Wiki for the WoT framework. 13:12:07 ... We need to come up with an understanding of these building blocks 13:12:58 ... Is this list quite undestandable? Are there building blocks missing? 13:14:41 JonathanJ1 has joined #wot 13:14:54 Edoardo: How do I combine these building blocks together? 13:14:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:14:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html JonathanJ1 13:15:11 Dave: We have different vocabularies. The Thing Description Language would have a specific content type. 13:16:11 Souleiman: If you know what thing and event you want to subscribe to @@ 13:16:28 Dave: The real issue is query language but that's platform specific. 13:17:29 Dom: A simple way to describe things and their content, which we do in COMPOSE, is an interesting approach. 13:17:46 Dave: Yes, that's what I presented yesterday. 13:18:16 ... Properties and actions, combined with a description of the thing. 13:18:29 Dom: It might be worth including the framework. 13:19:26 Souleiman: JSON-LD is a serialisation of RDF, so that's more a syntax problem. We could rename that part as ontologies/vocabularies. 13:21:16 Joerg: We need to focus on particular building blocks. The proposal would be to start with 3. 13:21:17 saki_ has joined #wot 13:22:00 Joerg: Thing Description Language? [About 7 hands raised] 13:22:27 ... Binding to scripting APIs and protocols? [About 6 hands raised] 13:24:30 ... End user service creation? [About 6 hands raised] 13:24:55 s/6 hands/2 hands 13:25:16 Joerg: Discovery [9 hands raised] 13:25:28 ... Provisioning and maintenance [4 hands raised] 13:25:48 ... Ontologies and vocabularies [About 9 hands raised] 13:26:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:26:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html JonathanJ1 13:26:49 Dave: It's a question of best practices. Can you describe things in a way that allows real-time validation? 13:27:05 Dom: It's more or less linked with number one, right? 13:27:29 Dave: Not really. The framework needs a core vocabulary, but the goal here is to go beyond that. 13:28:39 Joerg: Top 3, Thing description language, discovery and ontologies. Probably overlap of people among these 3, so it might make sense to add bindings to Scripting APIs. 13:29:52 ... Thing description language: does it refer to data modelling as well? 13:30:49 Carlton: There are several aspects to discovery. It can be about setting up systems, provisioning, about discovering things. I'm not sure that's the right package. 13:30:50 saki has joined #wot 13:31:35 Joerg: There might be an overlap with the Thing description language indeed. A first step should be to scope each discussion. 13:33:11 Carlton: I have no problem with the breakout if they can decide to break up. 13:34:38 Joerg: Right. Tomorrow, we need to discuss task forces, so the more crisp the building blocks, the better. 13:36:09 ... Back to breakout sessions. 13:36:15 ... Thing Description Language: 9 people. 13:36:23 ... Binding to scripting APIs and protocols: 9 people. 13:36:30 ... Discovery: no one left. 13:37:11 ... It's ok to focus on the first two already. 13:39:03 [session break] 13:39:06 RRSAgent, draft minutes 13:39:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html tidoust 14:04:09 ryuichi_ has joined #wot 14:09:38 taki has joined #wot 14:13:06 Alan has joined #WoT 15:15:45 dape has joined #wot 15:38:24 k_nimura1 has joined #wot 15:41:13 dsr has joined #wot 15:46:50 [Breakout sessions] 15:47:31 Topic: Breakout session on API bindings 15:47:33 kaz has joined #wot 15:52:34 [summary to be provided] 16:03:58 dsr_ has joined #wot 16:05:55 rrsagent, make minutes 16:05:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html dsr 16:19:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:19:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-wot-minutes.html tidoust