15:56:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
15:56:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-irc
15:56:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:05 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
15:56:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
15:56:07 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:56:08 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:56:08 <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2015
15:56:15 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
15:56:25 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
15:56:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
15:56:55 <allanj> Chair: Jim Allan
17:01:52 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:02:11 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:03:43 <jeanne> zakim, this will be UAWG
17:03:43 <Zakim> ok, jeanne, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:03:49 <jeanne> zakim, code?
17:03:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), jeanne
17:03:53 <Jan> zakim, who's here?
17:03:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, [IPcaller]
17:03:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see Greg, Jan, Zakim, RRSAgent, allanj, jeanne, trackbot
17:04:16 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is Jan
17:04:16 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:05:27 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:06:52 <jeanne> Topic: Increase checkbox size
17:06:53 <allanj> scribe: allanj
17:06:54 <jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/CR20/WCAG2_HTML_Problem_File_Fixed.html
17:09:58 <allanj> split results
17:11:17 <allanj> in fireworks
17:12:20 <allanj> text only zoom resulted in 2/4 checkbox did not get bigger, and 2/4 did get bigger
17:12:38 <jeanne> when testing whether a plain HTML checkbox enlarges when the text size enlarges, 2 people had it work, 2 did not have it work. All are running FF 37.01 and all on Windows 7.
17:12:47 <allanj> but standard zoom, checkbox all got bigger
17:13:02 <allanj> Agenda+ Shawn comment
17:13:04 <allanj> agenda+ documenting implementations
17:13:07 <jeanne> All had Zoom Text Only turned off
17:13:13 <jeanne> zakim, take up next
17:13:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Shawn comment" taken up [from allanj]
17:13:33 <allanj> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2015AprJun/0016.html
17:14:55 <allanj> shawn:  1.4.3 and 1.4.6 are *global*. Most of the use of borders especially and also margins that I've seen has been needed at the *element* level."
17:15:43 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:15:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:18:18 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:22:35 <allanj> RESOLUTION: add Border and Margins control to 1.4.2
17:22:55 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:22:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:24:56 <allanj> close item 1
17:25:08 <allanj> take up item 2
17:27:27 <Greg> A bit odd to have borders be AA per-element but AAA globally (because it's considered "Advanced").
17:28:34 <allanj> gl: border and margins by elements should be a AAA
17:29:22 <allanj> s/border and margins by/border by
17:29:47 <Greg> Margins definitely AA or better; but for Borders I have trouble coming up with justifications for significant accessibility impact. Perhaps it might be used to highlight headings and the like.
17:30:22 <Greg> However, I won't object to making Borders AA.
17:31:10 <allanj> RESOLUTION: move borders from 1.4.6 to 1.4.2
17:32:51 <allanj> topic: Implementations by feature
17:32:58 <Greg> https://w3c.github.io/UAAG-Implementations/Implementations-by-feature
17:34:25 <allanj> 1.1.2 - can do this with USER STYLE sheet
17:35:08 <allanj> greg has a stylesheet
17:39:06 <allanj> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K4WJs94FfY youtube with captions CC button is not grayed out
17:40:58 <allanj> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe30habM0ls youtube with no captions no CC button
17:47:06 <allanj> 1.1.3 - settings for images in browsers -
17:47:09 <allanj> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/981640
17:47:28 <allanj> http://smallbusiness.chron.com/turn-off-images-internet-explorer-49962.html
17:47:48 <allanj> 1.1.4
17:49:35 <allanj> done
17:49:39 <allanj> 1.1.5
17:50:41 <allanj> done
17:52:05 <allanj> 1.1.6
17:52:07 <allanj> done
17:53:00 <allanj> discussion of list of alternative content type that the UA processes
17:54:36 <allanj> gl: in 1.1.5 chrome can turn off images but not have alt, could use CSS to display alt
17:56:16 <allanj> gl: put yes/no/maybe at the top of each box in implementation columns
17:56:31 <allanj> ... so we know when something is really done
17:59:04 <allanj> 1.1.7
18:00:03 <allanj> need to find
18:00:12 <allanj> at risk
18:00:23 <allanj> 1.2.1
18:00:58 <allanj> ja: no sure how to test this
18:01:09 <allanj> s/no sure/not sure
18:01:22 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:01:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:03:48 <allanj> topic: UAAG
18:04:00 <allanj> s/topic: UAAG//
18:07:21 <Judy> Judy has joined #ua
18:07:25 <Judy> zakim, code?
18:07:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Judy
18:07:34 <Zakim> +Judy
18:08:21 <Judy> zakim, who's on the call?
18:08:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Jim_Allan, Judy
18:08:57 <jeanne> Topic: UAWG Charter
18:09:28 <jeanne> Judy: Pretty much everything in the charter package is being looked at with fresh eyes.
18:09:47 <jeanne> ... sometimes it is a matter of perspective or misconceptions
18:10:02 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
18:10:31 <jeanne> ... the browsers say that there isn't the engagement in UAWG because the browsers aren't here.
18:10:46 <jeanne> ... maybe the question should be "why aren't the browsers here?"
18:11:18 <jeanne> ... we continue to hear from PwD that there are basic accessibility problems with browsers that are not being addressed.
18:11:49 <jeanne> ... UAWG is not funded by W3C, there is an expectation it would be published as a REC
18:12:41 <jeanne> ... I want to explore the possibility that IF we could get permission to recharter as a Note, what does UAWG see as options?
18:13:47 <jeanne> ... What would it look like to recharter as a Note, and how long would it take to get that charter done?
18:14:24 <jeanne> Jim: We could probably do it in a couple weeks
18:16:00 <Judy> s/Pretty much everything/We're getting a level of feedback that we've never gotten before, some of which is good to see. So pretty much everything/
18:16:24 <jeanne> Greg:  I totally respect the judgement and opinions of the people in this working group. They are smart, dedicated people who have been doing this work for a long time.  That said, from my perspective personally, I really like the idea of guidance documents that would be more useful to developers than a standards document
18:17:21 <jeanne> ... I will also be very sad if the group doesn't produce a standard.  If standards are enforced in purchasing decisions, that is the only thing that gets real changes to happen.  It won't drive the industry forward.
18:18:08 <jeanne> ... but on the other hand, a number of our SC don't have implementations
18:18:11 <Judy> s/as a Note/for Note track, if that were an option/
18:18:21 <allanj> +1 to many SC being at risk if REC track
18:18:39 <jeanne> Judy: There a lot of complicated truths in what Greg said.
18:21:30 <jeanne> Judy: What if it were not either/or, is there a value in looking at what can go into REC track and what will not.
18:22:15 <allanj> UI that UAAG20 talks about is what to do for users, NOT how to do something
18:22:31 <allanj> ... to get an accessible environment
18:22:35 <jeanne> Jim: The UI that we have in the Guidelines is what functions they need to provide to users, not HOW they have to do it.  We were very careful not to include HOW.
18:26:43 <jeanne> Greg: Has anyone given any specfic examples of where we are telling them how to change their UI?
18:26:44 <jeanne> Judy: The current discussion doesn't seem to be looking at the detail of the spec in great depth
18:27:07 <jeanne> Greg: They may not have any substantial actual objections?
18:27:53 <jeanne> Judy: My understanding is that the browsers have objections such as: the approach is outdated, the industry is moving toward apps, etc.
18:28:13 <jeanne> ... there are comments from a few browsers that have been looking at UAAG in depth.
18:28:44 <jeanne> ... one browser said there would be more concerns if UAAG were published as a normative.
18:29:25 <jeanne> ... I'm not sure how to get us a clearer answer, except to have a series of discussions.
18:29:58 <jeanne> Jim: Even if we do all these things, we still have a year to finish
18:30:45 <jeanne> Judy: Jan said that the group is self-censoring the spec, because they are afraid it will be shot down if it is on REC track.
18:31:08 <jeanne> s/ Judy: Jan said that the group is self-censoring the spec, because they are afraid it will be shot down if it is on REC track. //
18:33:11 <jeanne> Judy: I hear a mix of advantages and disadvantages, rather than a clear consensus on a Note
18:34:04 <jeanne> Jan: This document has everything including the kitchen sink.  To send it as REC, we would have to take more out because we don't have implementations, or it is not testable.
18:34:43 <jeanne> ... We could do a small set that has implementations and publish that as a REC.
18:34:54 <jeanne> Jim: that's a really low bar.
18:35:18 <jeanne> Jan: We take the best.  That brings up the lowest browser.
18:35:52 <allanj> js: might help mobile browsers
18:37:03 <Zakim> -Judy
18:43:23 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:43:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:44:52 <Zakim> -Jan
18:44:55 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
18:44:59 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:45:09 <allanj> zakim, please part
18:45:09 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Jan, Jim_Allan, Judy
18:45:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:45:20 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:45:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:46:07 <allanj> regrets+ Kim
18:47:27 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:47:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:47:36 <allanj> rrsagent, please part
18:47:36 <RRSAgent> I see no action items