20:27:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:27:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-irc
20:27:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:27:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
20:27:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:27:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()4:30PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
20:27:46 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:27:46 <trackbot> Date: 16 April 2015
20:28:01 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg
20:28:08 <ed> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0010.html
20:28:15 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()4:30PM has now started
20:28:22 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:30:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:42 <Zakim> +??P0
20:30:53 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:30:53 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:30:53 <AmeliaBR> zakim, ??P0 is me
20:30:54 <Zakim> +AmeliaBR; got it
20:31:00 <Zakim> +??P3
20:31:15 <smailus> smailus has joined #svg
20:31:30 <stakagi> zakim, ??P3 is me
20:31:30 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:31:44 <Zakim> +Thomas_Smailus
20:33:20 <ChrisLittle> ChrisLittle has joined #svg
20:36:08 <smailus> afk for bio break
20:36:28 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:36:28 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose ed
20:36:52 <ed> scribeNick: ed
20:37:59 <ed> topic: stroke-dasharray="0"
20:38:06 <ed> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Apr/0001.html
20:38:31 <ed> ABR: there was a inconsistency between firefox and the other browsers when you had stroke-dasharray=0
20:38:36 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:38:39 <ed> ... comes down to some unclear prose
20:39:15 <ed> ... spec said should be treated as a value of none was specified, but it was unclear where that meant for the stroke or for stroke-dasharray
20:39:30 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:39:32 <ed> ... <reads proposed text>
20:39:52 <ed> ... so still draw the stroke, but don't dash it
20:40:05 <ed> ... Robert Longson was happy with the proposed wording
20:40:16 <ed> ... so, can we resolve on doing that clarification?
20:41:10 <ed> All: yes
20:41:49 <ed> ACTION: AmeliaBR to clarify the wording around stroke-dasharray=0 to say that that means draw the stroke but don't dash it
20:41:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3777 - Clarify the wording around stroke-dasharray=0 to say that that means draw the stroke but don't dash it [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2015-04-23].
20:42:11 <ed> topic: meeting at TPAC?
20:42:20 <ed> DS: it's in Sapporo, Japan
20:42:43 <ed> ... we need to let the planners know if SVGWG is meeting, by apr 30
20:42:44 <Zakim> +Tav
20:43:05 <ed> ... and we don't want to meet with days overlapping with CSS
20:43:13 <ed> ... who here will attend?
20:43:39 <ed> Rossen: we're going to have somebody there, probably me and maybe bogdan
20:43:45 <ed> ... will attend CSS too
20:44:04 <ed> ED: will go if SVG is meeting
20:44:12 <ed> DS: will go
20:44:20 <ed> BB: I expect I'll go
20:44:25 <TabAtkins> I'm attending.
20:44:42 <stakagi> will go
20:44:43 <ed> Tav: I'll probably not go, too expensive for two days
20:45:30 <ed> TPAC is 26-30 Oct 2015
20:45:44 <ed> DS: does anyone think we shouldn't meet at tpac?
20:45:50 <ed> <silence>
20:46:08 <ed> DS: thu-fri is typically when svg meets
20:46:20 <ed> ... might be a bit crowded, but no problem
20:46:47 <ed> ... assuming people in the group will attend CSS too, so we shouldn't have overlap
20:46:56 <ed> Rossen: maybe FXTF too?
20:47:12 <ed> DS: will we have one?
20:47:24 <ed> Rossen: sure, if there are things to discuss
20:47:32 <ed> ... assuming it'll happen on wednesday
20:47:47 <ed> ... or perhaps take some time from the css or svg meeting
20:48:37 <ed> ACTION: ed to respond to the TPAC organizers saying SVG will meet at TPAC 2015
20:48:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3778 - Respond to the tpac organizers saying svg will meet at tpac 2015 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-04-23].
20:49:18 <ed> topic: SVG 2 open issue discussion
20:49:23 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
20:49:24 <ed> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment
20:49:46 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:49:48 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
20:50:21 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:50:38 <ed> Rossen: orthogonal question, some chapter are assigned to Dirk, anyone know if he's still active in the group, and if he's going to work on the things he's assigned?
20:50:56 <ed> ... if not, we should divvy up the chapters on other ppl
20:51:16 <ed> DS: he hasn't been on the calls recently
20:51:25 <ed> AmeliaBR: he's been active on the list
20:51:34 <ed> Rossen: ok, moving on to the issues then
20:52:48 <ed> Topic: chapter 19, extensibility
20:53:41 <Rossen> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment#Extensibility_.28Rossen.29
20:53:49 <AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/extend.html#issue2
20:54:08 <ed> AmeliaBR: issue 2 and 3, it's not specific to foreignObject
20:54:15 <ed> ... going to come up all over the svg dom
20:54:31 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
20:54:49 <ed> ... what to do with the attributes we turned into presentation attributes, has to be done consistently across the board
20:54:53 <ed> Rossen: sounds good
20:54:54 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:55:08 <ed> ... I believe the issues were raised in the wrong part of the spec
20:55:15 <ed> ... not specific to FO itself
20:55:47 <ed> ... I woudln't expect anythign special here
20:56:04 <ed> BB: the only thing that might be different
20:56:18 <ed> ... maybe because it's not used so much we could make them domstrings
20:56:33 <ed> AmeliaBR: I'd advise caution there
20:56:43 <ed> ... ppl also expect things to work the same way
20:57:02 <ed> BB: ppl probably don't use animVal for width and height on a FO
20:57:47 <ed> Rossen: but what makes FO special here?
20:58:19 <ed> BB: if the APIs aren't used (much) it'd be nicer to be able to simplify things
20:59:37 <ed> ED: I'm fine with moving this to whatever chapter needs to deal with this, I agree that the extensibility chapter shouldn't do it alone
20:59:43 <shepazu> q+
21:00:38 <ed> Rossen: fine with moving it to the proper chapter
21:01:00 <ed> DS: might be useful to raise an issue in ext chapter about other ways to embed html
21:01:13 <ed> ... we should raise such an issue here as a placeholder
21:01:41 <ed> AmeliaBR: iframe and foreignObject have similarites
21:02:05 <ed> DS: maybe those two chapters should simply be merged
21:02:26 <ed> AmeliaBR: there's a difference in linking vs embedding, but merging might make sense
21:02:40 <ChrisLittle> s/similarites/similarities
21:02:53 <ed> DS: I wouldn't look for FO in an extensibility chapter
21:03:05 <ed> Rossen: I can merge those chapters if that's what we want to do
21:03:40 <ed> ... I see that in embedded content chapter, there are other examples of x,y,width,height presentation attributes
21:05:10 <ed> ACTION: Rossen to merge the embedded content and extensibility chapters (removing the ext chapter)
21:05:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3779 - Merge the embedded content and extensibility chapters (removing the ext chapter) [on Rossen Atanassov - due 2015-04-23].
21:05:44 <ed> topic: animations chapter
21:05:54 <ed> Rossen: three issues needing discussion
21:06:06 <Rossen> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue2
21:07:51 <ed> AmeliaBR: what is #xC?
21:07:58 <ed> Tav: it's form feed
21:08:05 <ed> AmeliaBR: consistency is good
21:09:21 <ed> ED: so, I did some changes to the types chapter to align what is considered "whitespace" across svg, html and css
21:09:39 <ed> ... it was previously referenced from here (I think)
21:09:58 <ed> ... the types chapter is referencing css now, so automatically is aligned with that
21:10:08 <ed> ... I think the animations chapter should use the same definition of whitespace
21:12:20 <ed> Rossen: ok, sounds good, point to css definition of whitespace
21:13:08 <ed> RESOLUTION: align what is considered whitespace in animations chapter with CSS, by referencing css' definition of whitespace
21:13:54 <ed> ACTION: Rossen to reference CSS' definition of whitespace for the S production in the animations chapter (issue 2)
21:13:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3780 - Reference css' definition of whitespace for the s production in the animations chapter (issue 2) [on Rossen Atanassov - due 2015-04-23].
21:13:59 <Rossen> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue8
21:14:34 <ed> Rossen: this is unclear to me
21:14:46 <ed> ... should we reference the transform property, or what is this about?
21:14:54 <TabAtkins> The CSS definition of whitespace is at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-syntax/#whitespace
21:15:15 <TabAtkins> (Note that u+000c is processed out during preprocessing, and so doesn't show up in the definition explicitly. There's a note covering this.)
21:15:18 <ed> BB: not sure who added this, but maybe that you can use the regular animate element to animate transform
21:16:32 <ed> AmeliaBR: I think the immidiate issue is to just change the text, so that animateTransform refers to the transform style property as well as the attribute
21:17:20 <ed> BB: I'm adressing this chapter top-to-bottom, so not sure we need to talk about this yet
21:17:32 <ed> Rossen: the rest are mostly editorial
21:18:09 <ed> BB: I've been working on this chapter
21:18:42 <Rossen> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment#Animation_.28Rossen.29
21:18:42 <ed> Rossen: the reason why the animation chapter had my name next to it, happy to give it back to you brian
21:20:15 <ed> ... so for issue 8, add the reference to transform property and then deprecate?
21:20:30 <Rossen> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/animate.html#issue8
21:21:07 <ed> BB: just needs to be updated to talk about the transform property
21:21:40 <Rossen> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment#Animation_.28Brian.29
21:21:42 <ed> Rossen: ok, I did reflect this in the chapter assessment, and assigned Brian the animation chapter
21:22:40 <ed> topic: deprecating xlink:href
21:22:54 <ed> BB: there are three questions I have around this
21:23:00 <ed> ... first, animated interfaces
21:23:13 <ed> ... since we're not going ahead with heycam's new dom
21:23:36 <ed> ... if that's the case, then the href IDL attributes point to an SVGAnimatedString
21:23:42 <ed> ... and if they're not used much
21:23:51 <ed> ... to replace them with plain domstring
21:25:24 <ed> ED: I landed a patch in blink today for measuring the usage of href.baseVal and href.animVal, we'll have to wait a bit for the results
21:25:44 <AmeliaBR> Q: What interface makes xlink:href available as an animated string?
21:25:47 <ed> BB: For <image>, <script> we resolved to add the src attribute. Does setting the href IDL attribute update src?
21:26:20 <ed> the xlink:href interface is called SVGURIReference
21:26:25 <birtles> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGURIReference
21:26:56 <ed> BB: i updated the definitions there
21:27:10 <ed> ... not sure if you have animations
21:27:26 <ed> ... maybe you should always update href if animating
21:27:52 <birtles> i.e. even if it explicitly animates attributeName="xlink:href" should it just animate "href" anyway?
21:28:02 <ed> AmeliaBR: what is the current language for href? which takes preference if both src and href specified?
21:28:10 <ed> Rossen: document order?
21:28:16 <ed> BB: what do you mean?
21:28:31 <ed> Rossen: last one overrides
21:28:45 <ed> AmeliaBR: but attributes aren't ordered
21:29:10 <ed> ... parsers don't keep track of the order the attributes are in
21:29:38 <ed> DS: ok, rossen you're right to have a single attr do the same thing
21:30:21 <ed> ... but the situation is that svg got it wrong, svg was defined in -99, so svg went with consistency with something that didn't take off
21:30:59 <ed> ... my opinion: make href an alias for src, and if both present src takes precedence
21:31:09 <ed> ... both map to src
21:31:46 <ed> ... we ran into similar problem, barename href vs xlink:href.... we decided it should default to href
21:31:55 <ed> ... in this case we're saying href should default to src
21:32:03 <AmeliaBR> q+ to ask for clarification on the resolution re src
21:32:04 <ed> Rossen: any precedent in html?
21:32:14 <ed> DS: don't think so
21:33:00 <ed> Rossen: other question: if we say src is the primary one and the href is secondary, how do you deal with invalid values and fallback
21:33:09 <ed> DS: src should be authoriative
21:33:26 <ed> Rossen: but we're talkign about tools that sometimes screw up content
21:33:57 <ed> BB: barename href vs xlink:href, we should ignore xlink:href if we see a barename href
21:34:07 <ed> AmeliaBR: sounds good
21:34:12 <TabAtkins> I say no fallback.  If src is present, it's used, regardless of whether it's "wrong" or whatever.
21:34:16 <ed> ... not sure what the original resolution was
21:34:20 <TabAtkins> Yeah, what BB said.
21:34:31 <Zakim> -Tav
21:35:00 <ed> ... if we're making <image> to use src that will trigger behaviours in older browsers
21:35:07 <ed> ... will be handled as html:img
21:35:14 <birtles> http://www.w3.org/2012/09/19-svg-minutes.html#item05
21:35:30 <ed> BB: pasted link to the last discussion we had about this
21:36:05 <ed> AmeliaBR: I think we shouldn't ruin the src fallback "hack"
21:36:15 <TabAtkins> We're talking *very* old browsers that don't understand <svg> at all.  It's not a big deal.
21:36:25 <ed> ... if we gave src a meaning in svg it'll break the html fallback
21:37:16 <ed> DS: content validation might help a bit
21:37:17 <AmeliaBR> TabAtkins: 5-6% of web site visits in the US are on IE8- or Android 2.3-
21:37:31 <TabAtkins> Let's encourage them to upgrade. ^_^
21:37:45 <TabAtkins> (IE team has openly encouraged devs to stop developing for IE8.)
21:38:28 <ed> AmeliaBR: for script it's sort of the same between html and svg
21:38:41 <ed> ... the problem is with image
21:39:10 <ed> DS: right, we should do the change (using src) for script but not for image
21:39:44 <Zakim> -Thomas_Smailus
21:39:55 <Zakim> -ed
21:39:57 <Zakim> -birtles
21:40:03 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:40:06 <Zakim> -stakagi
21:40:51 <ed> ED: out of time, let's continue the discussion on the mailinglist (or in another call)
21:41:00 <ed> trackbot, end telcon
21:41:00 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:41:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], ed, AmeliaBR, stakagi, Thomas_Smailus, birtles, [Microsoft], Tav
21:41:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:41:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:41:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:41:09 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-actions.rdf :
21:41:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AmeliaBR to clarify the wording around stroke-dasharray=0 to say that that means draw the stroke but don't dash it [1]
21:41:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-irc#T20-41-49
21:41:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed to respond to the TPAC organizers saying SVG will meet at TPAC 2015 [2]
21:41:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-irc#T20-48-37
21:41:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rossen to merge the embedded content and extensibility chapters (removing the ext chapter) [3]
21:41:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-irc#T21-05-10
21:41:09 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Rossen to reference CSS' definition of whitespace for the S production in the animations chapter (issue 2) [4]
21:41:09 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/16-svg-irc#T21-13-54
21:41:12 <ChrisLittle> bye