15:01:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
15:01:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/15-hcls-irc
15:01:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:01:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
15:01:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:01:11 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:01:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:01:12 <trackbot> Date: 15 April 2015
15:01:30 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
15:01:30 <Zakim> sorry, dbooth, I don't know what conference this is
15:01:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, dbooth, twamarc, Lloyd, Tony, egonw, jimi_, TallTed, trackbot, cloudcell_, ericP
15:01:33 <Lloyd> zakim, ipcaller is lloyd
15:01:33 <Zakim> sorry, Lloyd, I do not recognize a party named 'ipcaller'
15:01:49 <ericP> Zakim, this is hcls
15:01:49 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not see a conference named 'hcls' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:05:48 <ericP> present: dbooth, ericP, Lloyd, twamarc, Tony
15:06:16 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_ConCall_Agenda#DRAFT_Agenda_for_21-Apr-2015
15:06:31 <dbooth> o discuss: Element ordering. Some possibilities:
15:06:32 <dbooth>     rdf:List
15:06:32 <dbooth>     Ordered List Ontology
15:06:32 <dbooth>     Collections Ontology
15:06:33 <dbooth>     Simple List Conventions
15:06:33 <dbooth> ACTION: Tony to show an example of his and Grahame's approaches side-by-side
15:06:33 <trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
15:06:34 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/images/2/25/FHIR_RDF_Sample_side_by_side_comparisons.pdf
15:07:22 <ericP> agenda+ ShExpressivity
15:07:55 <dbooth> Topic: ShEx expressivity
15:08:01 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/ShExpressivity V&T questionnaire
15:08:16 <dbooth> eric: Questionnaire on validation and translation (above link)
15:11:07 <dbooth> eric: Please answer the questionnaire to say what expressivity you need
15:11:46 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR Element ordering
15:13:25 <dbooth> Ordered List Ontology: http://smiy.sourceforge.net/olo/spec/orderedlistontology.html
15:13:43 <dbooth> Collections Ontology: http://www.essepuntato.it/lode/owlapi/http://purl.org/co/
15:14:13 <dbooth> Simple List Conventions: http://goo.gl/8PNuAG
15:20:33 <rhausam> rhausam has joined #HCLS
15:23:36 <mscott> mscott has joined #hcls
15:28:46 <dbooth> lloyd: extensions may depend on ordering, so ordering of all extensions must also be kept in the RDF
15:31:20 <dbooth> http://smiy.sourceforge.net/olo/spec/orderedlistontology.html
15:31:50 <dbooth> [[
15:31:53 <dbooth> PREFIX dc:<http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/>
15:31:53 <dbooth> PREFIX ex:<http://example.org/>
15:31:53 <dbooth> PREFIX mo:<http://purl.org/ontology/mo/>
15:31:53 <dbooth> PREFIX olo:<http://purl.org/ontology/olo/core#>
15:31:54 <dbooth> PREFIX xsd:<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#>
15:31:54 <dbooth> SELECT ?item ?index {
15:31:56 <dbooth>   ex:FunkyPlaylist olo:slot [ olo:index ?index ; olo:item ?item ] .
15:32:00 <dbooth> } ORDER BY ?index
15:32:02 <dbooth> # If this were done using Simple List Conventions,
15:32:04 <dbooth> # the query would be:
15:32:06 <dbooth> # SELECT ?item ?index {
15:32:08 <dbooth> #   ex:FunkyPlaylist list:item ( ?item ?index ) .
15:32:10 <dbooth> # } ORDER BY ?index
15:32:12 <dbooth> ]]
15:35:00 <dbooth> AGREED: We need to retain explicit order info for extensions in RDF, and for anything with cardinality more than one.  Otherwise we should lean on the schema to determine order when reserializing back to XML from RDF.
15:35:32 <mscott> There’s a way to answer a question like “Give me the second treatment of this patient” with limit and offset:  SELECT ?treatment { ?treatment a :Treatment ; :ends ?date } ORDER BY ?date LIMIT 1 OFFSET 1
15:40:55 <dbooth> Simple List Conventions: http://goo.gl/8PNuAG
15:44:29 <dbooth> Topic: Tony's side-by-side comparison of Grahame and Tony's approaches
15:44:30 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/images/2/25/FHIR_RDF_Sample_side_by_side_comparisons.pdf
15:44:53 <dbooth> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
15:44:53 <dbooth> Access Code: 157-514-853
15:46:07 <dbooth> present+ Claude RobHausam mscott
15:47:47 <dbooth> tony: my approach uses anonymous instances, plus fhir:value .
15:49:04 <dbooth> marc: Benefit of the first example is to use the URI.
15:49:43 <dbooth> tony: but the anon instance allows extensions to appear
15:50:59 <dbooth> lloyd: JSON uses Coding.system and Coding._system (for extensions) , but better to use anon instance.
15:51:30 <dbooth> second github example:
15:51:30 <dbooth> [[
15:51:31 <dbooth> @prefix loinc: <http://loinc.org/owl#> .
15:51:31 <dbooth> :resource a fhir:Observation;
15:51:31 <dbooth> fhir:Observation.code [
15:51:31 <dbooth> fhir:CodeableConcept.coding [
15:51:33 <dbooth> fhir:Coding.system <http://loinc.org>;
15:51:35 <dbooth> fhir:Coding.code "54411-4";
15:51:37 <dbooth> fhir:Coding.display "Rh immune globulin given Qualitative";
15:51:39 <dbooth> ex:concept loinc:54411-4;
15:51:41 <dbooth> ];
15:51:43 <dbooth> fhir:CodeableConcept.text "Rh immune globulin";
15:51:45 <dbooth> ].
15:51:47 <dbooth> ]]
15:55:22 <Lloyd> <extension url="http://...StructureDefinition/Coding-concept">   <valueURI value="http://loinc.org/54411-4"/> </extension
15:57:41 <dbooth> claude: If we point to an instance then we should use SKOS
16:01:55 <dbooth> tony's example:
16:01:56 <dbooth> [[
16:01:56 <dbooth> @prefix loinc: <http://loinc.org/owl#> .
16:01:56 <dbooth> :resource a fhir:Observation;
16:01:56 <dbooth> fhir:Observation.code [
16:01:57 <dbooth> fhir:CodeableConcept.coding [rdf:type fhir:Coding , <http://loinc.org/54411-4.ttl>
16:02:01 <dbooth> fhir:Coding.system <http://loinc.org> ;
16:02:03 <dbooth> fhir:Coding.code "54411-4";
16:02:05 <dbooth> fhir:Coding.display "Rh immune globulin given Qualitative";
16:02:07 <dbooth> ];
16:02:09 <dbooth> fhir:CodeableConcept.text "Rh immune globulin";
16:02:11 <dbooth> ].
16:02:13 <dbooth> ]]
16:03:17 <dbooth> lloyd: the code instance is a member of the LOINC class and the SNOMED class, etc.
16:08:28 <dbooth> lloyd: Observation.code should be an instance of both fhir:Coding and loinc:54411
16:09:10 <dbooth> lloyd: I like that types can be stated explicitly or inferred.
16:10:22 <dbooth> tony: i'm trying to get the same approach to work with fhir:Code
16:12:07 <dbooth> (example 3)
16:12:27 <dbooth> lloyd: I'd like to asee a full coding instance
16:13:27 <dbooth> lloyd: If I have two concepts, one that infers A and the other B, then A and B cannot be disjoint.
16:13:48 <dbooth> eric: Talking with Grahame, he was saying codings are a union
16:14:33 <dbooth> lloyd: no, if you want union you'll need repetition.  your concept should be a subclass of all of them.  the intersection.
16:14:55 <dbooth> ... If you want to convey laterality and diagnosis, they need to be separate.
16:17:28 <dbooth> eric: Multiple codings (within a codeable concept) are an intersection; multiple codes a union.
16:21:11 <dbooth> lloyd: I'd like to see this in terms of a full coding.
16:21:21 <dbooth> david: And please show the corresponding XML or JSON
16:22:17 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #hcls
16:22:26 <dbooth> lloyd: 1. what's the minimum needed in the instance to allow round tripping?  2. What's the min needed in the instance to support reasoning?  3. What's the full detail we'd want for reasoning?
16:23:13 <dbooth> ... If we only say the code system and code, that's sufficient to figure out the LOINC concept that applies, but it requires complex reasoning to figure that out.
16:23:38 <dbooth> ... Whereas if you say it's loinc:12345 then it shortcuts that reasoning.
16:24:56 <dbooth> ... Also you've got coding with system and code and possibly version, and you may have something that says this coding is a translation of this coding.
16:26:03 <dbooth> ... In the case of a bare code, you only have to send the code over the wire, because the code system and version are fixed in the resource datatype definitions.
16:27:01 <dbooth> ... But for a particular version of FHIR, the attribute with datatype code will be bound to a single valueset.  But possibly in a future version of FHIR that enumeration may expand.
16:28:00 <dbooth> ... You're pointing to a valueset and the code system within that is fixed, and the version is fixed for a version of FHIR, then over the wire you only need to say you're an XYZ valueset, and the attribute allows you to infer.
16:28:45 <dbooth> dbooth: how to know what FHIR version applied when the message was sent?
16:28:59 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #hcls
16:29:04 <dbooth> lloyd: The version in theory should not matter, because we're adding new concepts but not changing their meanings.
16:29:46 <dbooth> ...  Want for a simple code in an instance is for us to be able to reason against that single code, and codeable concepts the same way.
16:30:58 <dbooth> lloyd: Maybe easier to treat everything as CodeableConcept in RDF -- it may be easier.
16:31:04 <dbooth> eric: Why not do that in XML?
16:31:16 <dbooth> lloyd: Because people get annoyed with deeply nested XML.
16:33:05 <dbooth> dbooth: sounds like a good idea.  May need to keep a flag that says whether to reserialize it in the short form.
16:34:45 <dbooth> eric: We could use URIs for codeable concepts that are reused a lot.
16:36:11 <dbooth> lloyd: I'd like status in the RDF to say its a coding that has a code.  That allows the reasoning to be in the same structure.
16:38:59 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:39:00 <Zakim> sorry, dbooth, I don't know what conference this is
16:39:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see rhausam, Zakim, RRSAgent, dbooth, Lloyd, jimi_, trackbot, cloudcell_, ericP
16:39:12 <jimi_> :)
16:40:17 <dbooth> (example 4)
16:41:46 <dbooth> github example:
16:41:47 <dbooth> [[
16:41:47 <dbooth> :resource a fhir:Observation;
16:41:47 <dbooth> fhir:contained fhir:Observation\#23;
16:41:47 <dbooth> fhir:Observation.subject [
16:41:47 <dbooth> fhir:Reference.reference fhir:Observation\#23
16:41:49 <dbooth> ].
16:41:51 <dbooth> fhir:Observation\#23 a fhir:Patient;
16:41:53 <dbooth> fhir:Patient.name [
16:41:55 <dbooth> fhir:text "John Smith
16:41:57 <dbooth> ].
16:41:59 <dbooth> ]]
16:42:14 <dbooth> lloyd the reference is a string because the URI formation is not completely standard.
16:42:40 <dbooth> s/formation/resolution/
16:46:12 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
16:46:12 <Zakim> I am sorry, ericP; I don't have the necessary resources to dial out right now
16:47:08 <ericP> orange decided that my conversation was too long, but here's a ladder diagram so you can pretend i'm still there -- http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#page-29
18:49:45 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth and EricP
18:49:52 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:49:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/15-hcls-minutes.html dbooth