15:56:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dnt
15:56:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/08-dnt-irc
15:56:49 <npdoty> trackbot, start meeting
15:56:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:56:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dnt
15:56:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
15:56:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
15:56:53 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2015
15:56:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:56:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TRACK
15:56:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Tracking Protection Working Group Teleconference
15:56:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:58 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2015
15:57:06 <npdoty> chair: justin
15:57:26 <npdoty> regrets+ cargill, schunter
15:58:36 <fielding> fielding has joined #dnt
15:58:50 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #dnt
15:58:54 <justin> justin has joined #dnt
15:59:13 <Zakim> T&S_Track(dnt)12:00PM has now started
15:59:22 <Zakim> +[Apple]
15:59:26 <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
15:59:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Apple]
15:59:28 <Zakim> On IRC I see justin, dsinger, fielding, Zakim, RRSAgent, npdoty, WaltMichel, adrianba, hober, walter, wseltzer, trackbot
15:59:37 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
15:59:38 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
15:59:46 <Zakim> +[FTC]
15:59:53 <Zakim> +Fielding
15:59:56 <Zakim> +npdoty
16:00:08 <Zakim> +WaltMichel
16:01:04 <Zakim> + +1.202.407.aaaa
16:01:09 <justin> zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:11 <Zakim> +justin; got it
16:01:25 <justin> Can someone scribe what should hopefully be a very short call today?
16:01:54 <Zakim> +Wendy
16:02:12 <WileyS> WileyS has joined #dnt
16:02:19 <ChrisPedigoDCN> ChrisPedigoDCN has joined #dnt
16:02:23 <Zakim> +Chris_Pedigo
16:02:35 <Zakim> +kulick
16:03:01 <dsinger> sure, I’ll do it
16:03:04 <Zakim> -kulick
16:03:11 <npdoty> scribenick: dsinger
16:03:13 <dsinger> scribenick: dsinger
16:03:30 <dsinger> justin: short call, only one issue.
16:03:32 <Zakim> +WileyS
16:03:35 <fielding> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2015Apr/0002.html
16:03:47 <justin> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2015Apr/0002.html
16:03:57 <dsinger> justin: working off Roy’s email; we need to address ‘tracking data’ as we use the term and it’s not defined
16:04:19 <dsinger> … there are a handful of places in TCS. Walter has concerns on the changes
16:04:34 <WileyS> My concerns were that Walter's language expands scope
16:04:47 <dsinger> … today we’ll walk through this. This discussion include ‘de-identification’.
16:04:51 <vincent> vincent has joined #dnt
16:05:07 <npdoty> these are non-normative considerations, I believe
16:05:24 <dsinger> … Roy wanted to remove ‘tracking data’ from the text, Walter objected, we would like to understand why.
16:05:25 <Zakim> +vincent
16:05:26 <justin> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Apple], [FTC], Fielding, npdoty, WaltMichel, justin, Wendy, Chris_Pedigo, WileyS, vincent
16:05:29 <Zakim> [Apple] has dsinger
16:05:34 <npdoty> q+
16:05:35 <Zakim> +kulick
16:05:45 <justin> ack npdoty
16:05:50 <dsinger> …notes that Walter is not on the phone to explain. Nick volunteers to try
16:05:58 <Zakim> -kulick
16:06:30 <dsinger> npdoty: shares the confusion. Doesn’t see what the problem is; merging with ‘original tracking data’ changed seems to make sense
16:06:47 <npdoty> I'm fine with removing the text in that section, per fielding's latest email
16:06:51 <dsinger> justin: anyone else object to removing the term ‘tracking data’ from de-identification?
16:07:02 <fielding> Yep, it is just another example (which happens to contradict the definition, which might lead people tp think they can retain the original tracking data)
16:07:23 <dsinger> … no-one seems to object for the other two changes: permitted uses (changed to ‘that data’)…
16:07:26 <npdoty> +1
16:07:49 <dsinger> … the other example was a qualifier for permitted uses: tracking data -> data about that activity
16:08:07 <dsinger> … neither seem controversial.
16:08:10 <npdoty> yeah, that was just an example I drafted; I'm fine with changing it.
16:08:25 <dsinger> … the other place is 3rd party compliance. “must not collect, share…tracking data”
16:08:53 <dsinger> … Roy found this vague or contradictory.  Prefers to re-write.  (we need a link to the email).
16:09:31 <fielding> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2015Apr/0002.html
16:10:01 <dsinger> npdoty: “collecting data that would result in” seems problematic
16:10:23 <justin> q?
16:10:55 <vincent> my concern is about the "*this* particular user's activity to have been      collected across multiple distinct contexts"
16:10:56 <dsinger> … it’s not clear who is doing the tracking (it’s expressed in the passive): what happens if I convey data that doesn’t, to someone else, and the result is that they do?
16:11:13 <fielding> so we should say "party" again?
16:11:36 <dsinger> justin: seems like that is addressed.  you’re not allowed to share outside the context, and you’re not allowed to track cross contexts yourself. is there a hole? is there language to address that?
16:11:45 <npdoty> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tracking/2015Mar/0028.html
16:11:53 <Zakim> +kulick
16:12:03 <WileyS> Then they are the party responsible for honoring DNT signals, if any, as there was no way for the first party which responded they were not tracking to preconceive a future party to leverage shared data for a tracking purpose.
16:12:17 <dsinger> npdoty: what I suggested is to add a prohibition on sharing, to stop the 4th party problem
16:12:30 <dsinger> justin: but Roy does prohibit sharing (2nd bullet)
16:12:46 <dsinger> npdoty: maybe I am confused by retain…share
16:13:03 <dsinger> fielding: I am trying to use the same words as the definition
16:13:28 <dsinger> … if a 4th party (?) is collecting in a single context, that doesn’t violate tracking
16:13:56 <dsinger> justin: you can share within that context, but not with a random data broker out of context,
16:14:03 <vincent> my understanding is that Roy's proposal would allow collection of different user's activities accross different context
16:14:12 <dsinger> fielding: and you can’t retain youself across multiple contexts
16:14:16 <dsinger> q+
16:14:35 <dsinger> justin: to Vinecent
16:14:42 <npdoty> maybe fielding's second bullet could just be "share", and then it makes more sense to me
16:15:19 <dsinger> Vincent: my concern is about this user’s activity, doesn’t seem related to the current interaction. Not sure if you’re allowed to collect data about the user, but different activities in different contexts.
16:15:51 <dsinger> justin: you can’t collect data that results in you haveing data [about that user] about multiple contexts: that puts you in violation
16:16:02 <dsinger> … seems tighter than the use of the words ‘tracking data’
16:16:13 <dsinger> … do you have an example that this does not prohibit?
16:16:41 <dsinger> vincent: for example if the user visits two web sites, two activities, that would seem allowed
16:16:43 <npdoty> I think there was confusion about the scope of "particular"
16:17:01 <dsinger> fielding: we have an english ambiguity, the scope of ‘activity’, so maybe say ‘activity by this user’?
16:17:17 <dsinger> justin: maybe I don’t fully understand the concern
16:17:32 <npdoty> "data regarding this particular user" -- do we even need "activity"?
16:17:41 <dsinger> fielding: depends on how you parse the sentence.
16:17:45 <dsinger> [silence]
16:17:46 <fielding> regarding activuty by this particular user?
16:18:10 <dsinger> npdoty: how about “data from this particular user being associated across multiuple contextsa"
16:18:13 <dsinger> ?
16:18:20 <npdoty> collect data from this network interaction that would result in
16:18:20 <npdoty> >      data regarding this particular user to have been
16:18:21 <npdoty> >      collected across multiple distinct contexts
16:18:22 <dsinger> s/contextsa/contexts/
16:18:36 <vincent> sounds good to me
16:18:51 <dsinger> fielding: fine by me
16:19:29 <dsinger> justin: then we’ll do that
16:19:29 <WileyS> Its the mixing of the contexts that are the issue - not if the data is managed within only the context in which it was collected originally, correct?
16:20:15 <dsinger> dsinger: if I remember I served an ad to a user who visited say the NYT, isn’t that two contexts?
16:20:37 <npdoty> WileyS, I think the "share" bullet is about limiting the sharing of data about one context with other parties
16:20:38 <WileyS> Frequency capping is carved out
16:21:06 <dsinger> fielding: yes, but it’s a permitted use.
16:21:08 <WileyS> Nick, but this change is about "collected data...across multiple distince contexts"
16:21:56 <dsinger> dsinger: but generally, except for permitted use, an ad server can remember it served an ad to a user, but not that it was on the NYT; or it can remember the BYT and the ad, but not the user
16:22:18 <dsinger> npdoty: not sure that’s my understanding;
16:22:27 <dsinger> justin: is there an example of an ambiguity?
16:22:37 <dsinger> dsinger: list the thread in the process of scribing
16:22:37 <npdoty> npdoty: if I'm embedded in the NYT and remember the user's visit to the NYT, that's not by itself tracking, I think.
16:22:50 <dsinger> justin: we’ll send around the revised proposed edit
16:23:00 <dsinger> … no-one seemed to echo Walter’s concern
16:23:10 <dsinger> … otherwise, at least for this call, we seem aligned on the text
16:23:16 <dsinger> … any other substantive issues outstanding?
16:23:25 <WileyS> What is left on TCS?
16:23:28 <dsinger> … is everything ironed out, Nick?
16:23:34 <dsinger> npdoty: I think so
16:23:42 <npdoty> fielding, perhaps offline, I'm not sure I understand "retain, use or share" in that second bullet, rather than just "share"
16:23:53 <dsinger> justin: we can check that there is nothing outstanding
16:24:09 <dsinger> justin: sent out a list of issues that are either closed or superseded
16:24:20 <WileyS> Roy responded - and we agreed with his statements so didn't respond.
16:24:24 <dsinger> … only Roy responded, noting we are still dealing with user tracking
16:24:32 <npdoty> I'll mark 203 as pending review once I've made remaining changes about tracking data
16:24:35 <dsinger> … another can be closed, was open for future ref.
16:24:48 <dsinger> … what else do we need to do on TCS?
16:25:00 <WileyS> Should we do one full clean read like we did with the TPE?
16:25:15 <justin> Right that.
16:25:25 <dsinger> npdoty: I think when we were wrapping up TPE, we made the changes, and then we gave people 2 weeks to review for LC
16:25:25 <WileyS> We did a full read - then a few weeks wait - then went for public comment
16:25:31 <fielding> npdoty, can we change the citation for TPE to [TPE] instead of [TRACKING-DNT]? It reads better.
16:25:44 <dsinger> justin: so we’ll send an email saying this is a LC candidate, give people 2 weeks to review
16:25:51 <dsinger> … timeframe when that will be ready?
16:26:01 <npdoty> sure, fielding, can you send me an email reminder about that
16:26:09 <dsinger> npdoty: no later than Monday next (apr 13)
16:26:14 <WileyS> What volume of meaningful comment/push-back will it take to abandon the TCS (and only move forward with the TPE)?
16:26:25 <dsinger> justin: we don’t need to do a call; we’ll send it out and invite comment to the list
16:26:28 <fielding> I can do it myself if you like … easy global replace.
16:26:43 <dsinger> … will also send a summary of today’s call, to make sure Walter is informed
16:26:46 <dsinger> … AOB?
16:26:50 <WileyS> <crickets>
16:26:51 <dsinger> [silence]
16:26:58 <Zakim> -Chris_Pedigo
16:27:00 <Zakim> -[FTC]
16:27:00 <Zakim> -WaltMichel
16:27:00 <dsinger> … hearing none, we’ll talk again soon
16:27:01 <Zakim> -justin
16:27:02 <Zakim> -kulick
16:27:02 <Zakim> -WileyS
16:27:02 <Zakim> -vincent
16:27:04 <Zakim> -npdoty
16:27:04 <dsinger> adjourned
16:27:10 <Zakim> -Wendy
16:27:12 <justin> thanks dsinger for scribing
16:27:25 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
16:27:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:27:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dsinger, [FTC], Fielding, npdoty, WaltMichel, +1.202.407.aaaa, justin, Wendy, Chris_Pedigo, kulick, WileyS, vincent
16:27:28 <Zakim> -[Apple]
16:27:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:27:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/08-dnt-minutes.html trackbot
16:27:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:27:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items