IRC log of wai-wcag on 2015-04-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:34:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:34:52 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-wai-wcag-irc
14:34:54 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:34:54 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:34:56 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:34:56 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
14:34:57 [trackbot]: Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:34:57 [trackbot]: Date: 07 April 2015
14:34:59 [Joshue]: zakim, agenda?
14:34:59 [Zakim]: I see nothing on the agenda
14:35:04 [Joshue]: Chair: Joshue
14:35:12 [Joshue]: agenda+ TPAC final call
14:35:32 [Joshue]: agenda+ Extension model discussion: Including the sub topics
14:35:42 [Joshue]: agenda+ Background pointers
14:35:49 [Joshue]: agenda+ What type of extensions?
14:35:55 [Joshue]: agenda+ Will extensions be A, AA, AAA?
14:36:03 [Joshue]: agenda+ Will extensions conform to WCAG requirements for success criteria?
14:36:15 [Joshue]: agenda+ Categorisation of current open issues in the context of the extension model
14:36:24 [Joshue]: agenda+ WCAG working group and public engagement/interaction
14:52:45 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
14:52:52 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
14:52:56 [Joshue]: zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
14:52:56 [Zakim]: +Joshue; got it
14:56:46 [Zakim]: +AWK
14:56:59 [AWK]: AWK has joined #wai-wcag
14:57:17 [AWK]: ZAkim, who is on the phone?
14:57:17 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joshue, AWK
14:59:18 [Kathy]: Kathy has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:13 [Zakim]: +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:00:50 [Loretta]: Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:34 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
15:01:46 [Loretta]: zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
15:01:47 [Zakim]: +Loretta; got it
15:02:22 [Joshue]: zakim, agenda?
15:02:22 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
15:02:22 [Zakim]: 1. TPAC final call [from Joshue]
15:02:22 [Zakim]: 2. Extension model discussion: Including the sub topics [from Joshue]
15:02:22 [Zakim]: 3. Background pointers [from Joshue]
15:02:23 [Zakim]: 4. What type of extensions? [from Joshue]
15:02:23 [Zakim]: 5. Will extensions be A, AA, AAA? [from Joshue]
15:02:23 [Zakim]: 6. Will extensions conform to WCAG requirements for success criteria? [from Joshue]
15:02:23 [Zakim]: 7. Categorisation of current open issues in the context of the extension model [from Joshue]
15:02:24 [marcjohlic]: marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:24 [Zakim]: 8. WCAG working group and public engagement/interaction [from Joshue]
15:02:34 [Ryladog]: Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:42 [Zakim]: + +1.650.464.aaaa
15:02:52 [Zakim]: +Katie_Haritos-Shea
15:03:48 [AWK]: zakim, aaaa is Dan Frank
15:03:48 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'aaaa is Dan Frank', AWK
15:03:58 [AWK]: zakim, aaaa is Dan_Frank
15:03:58 [Zakim]: +Dan_Frank; got it
15:04:15 [Zakim]: +Marc_Johlic
15:05:20 [Joshue]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:20 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joshue, AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Loretta, Dan_Frank, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Marc_Johlic
15:05:46 [yatil]: zakim, call EricE-Skype
15:05:46 [Zakim]: ok, yatil; the call is being made
15:05:48 [Zakim]: +EricE
15:05:59 [yatil]: zakim, nick yatil is EricE
15:05:59 [Zakim]: ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
15:06:02 [yatil]: zakim, mute me
15:06:02 [Zakim]: EricE should now be muted
15:06:27 [AWK]: ZAkim, who is on the phone?
15:06:27 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joshue, AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Loretta, Dan_Frank, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Marc_Johlic, EricE (muted)
15:06:36 [Joshue]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:08:31 [Loretta]: Topic: TPAC
15:08:49 [Loretta]: JOC: Any change in status since last week?
15:08:55 [AWK]: q+
15:09:01 [Joshue]: ack awk
15:09:25 [yatil]: i/Topic:/Scribe: Loretta/
15:09:29 [Loretta]: AWK: There is interest and concern about making the group more inclusive of international audiences.
15:10:08 [Joshue]: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/24thMarch2015/results#x2673
15:10:09 [Loretta]: AWK: Maybe we say "probably not", but keep an eye on it.
15:10:20 [Ryladog]: q+
15:10:25 [Zakim]: -Dan_Frank
15:10:36 [Zakim]: +Mike_Elledge
15:10:41 [Loretta]: AWK: Maybe hold a meeting there as an engagement/get started event.
15:10:47 [Joshue]: 3 people will be there.
15:10:51 [Mike_Elledge]: Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag
15:11:03 [Joshue]: have confirmed
15:11:13 [Loretta]: AWK: If we move to a more asynchronous meeting model, any decisions made there would be ratified on the list anyway.
15:11:17 [Zakim]: +Dan_Frank
15:11:29 [Zakim]: +Cooper
15:12:06 [Loretta]: KHS: Makoto Ueki wants to rejoin the working group, and he felt there would be great interest and attendance for a meeting in Japan because of the new laws going into effect in Japan based on WCAG2.
15:12:33 [Loretta]: KHS: If there is a way to advertise to that audience, we might attract more attendance.
15:13:27 [Loretta]: MC: Between 8 - 15 would be the preferred meeting size.
15:13:50 [Joshue]: zakim, mute me
15:13:50 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
15:14:42 [Loretta]: MC: I can only go if my groups are meeting. I may not be able to go, given the current status. They are very strict about room reservations, so we need to either commit to a meeting or not.
15:15:21 [Joshue]: q?
15:15:26 [Joshue]: ack ry
15:15:30 [Joshue]: ack me
15:17:25 [Zakim]: -Dan_Frank
15:18:16 [Zakim]: +Kenny
15:18:39 [Loretta]: zakim, take up next item
15:18:39 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "TPAC final call" taken up [from Joshue]
15:18:47 [Loretta]: zakim, take up next item
15:18:47 [Zakim]: agendum 1 was just opened, Loretta
15:18:57 [Loretta]: zakim, close item 1
15:18:57 [Zakim]: agendum 1, TPAC final call, closed
15:18:58 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:18:58 [Zakim]: 2. Extension model discussion: Including the sub topics [from Joshue]
15:19:04 [Loretta]: zakim, take up next item
15:19:04 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Extension model discussion: Including the sub topics" taken up [from Joshue]
15:19:07 [Zakim]: +Dan_Frank
15:19:22 [Zakim]: -Dan_Frank
15:19:36 [Zakim]: +Dan_Frank
15:20:39 [Loretta]: JOC: The extension model road map is open ended, and different groups apply it in different ways, depending on what they need.
15:21:40 [Joshue]: q?
15:22:03 [AWK]: q+
15:22:11 [Joshue]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionHowTo
15:22:32 [Loretta]: HOC: SHould we talk about how html5 uses the extension model?
15:22:43 [AWK]: q-
15:23:15 [Loretta]: JOC: LInk to general model of extension specifications.
15:23:32 [Joshue]: s/HOC/JOC
15:23:53 [Joshue]: zakim, mute me
15:23:53 [Zakim]: Joshue should now be muted
15:24:08 [Loretta]: MC: In W3C process, there isn't a universal process for what an extension is. SOme groups have adopted a modular approach, where final spec is the union of all their modules.
15:24:26 [Loretta]: MC: Other groups didnt start with modular approach, but need came up for extensions.
15:25:23 [Loretta]: MC: HMTL5 model: there is hmtl5, and then anyone can write an extension. If you want it to be part of html5, you are responsible for 1) writing a good spec, 2) (xx), 3) doing the implementation testing.
15:25:45 [Loretta]: MC: If you pass all those bars, they will include the extension in the next version of html5 automatically.
15:26:28 [Loretta]: MC: It is also possible that extensions aren't made part of the html5 core, but is seen to have value for parts of the html5 community. The HTML5 WG says such extensions are also legitimate.
15:26:40 [Joshue]: q?
15:27:30 [Joshue]: ack me
15:27:39 [Loretta]: MC: We were looking at the latter for a WCAG model; extensions would not change the definition of WCAG2. Extensions would need to meet the same quality bar. If you wanted to conform to WCAG + extension, you can do so. However, it is still possible to conform just to WCAG 2.
15:28:36 [Loretta]: MC: Open question: if a policy adopts both WCAG2 and an extension, is it possible for the extension to change WCAG2 itself?
15:28:38 [Kathy]: q+
15:29:20 [MichaelC]: q+ to mention delta specifications
15:29:21 [Joshue]: ack kathy
15:29:46 [Loretta]: KW: Clarification request: if we look at hmtl5 and html5 extensions, is ARIA considered an extension?
15:30:00 [Loretta]: JOC: ARIA is a separate extension in its own right.
15:30:10 [Joshue]: ack mic
15:30:11 [Zakim]: MichaelC, you wanted to mention delta specifications
15:30:18 [Loretta]: s/extension/spec/
15:30:29 [Joshue]: s/ARIA is a separate extension/ARIA is a separate specification
15:30:59 [Ryladog]: q+
15:31:14 [Loretta]: MC: ARIA is not an hmtl5 extension. ARIA 1.0 is incorporated into hmtl5, via a long and difficult negotiation. So to an extent it worked like an extension, but it was incorporated before we completed the testing bar.
15:31:14 [MichaelC]: q+
15:31:25 [Kathy]: q-
15:31:29 [MichaelC]: ack me
15:32:14 [Loretta]: MC: I forgot to mention: W3C has the concept of Delta Specification. I don't know exactly what it is.
15:32:47 [Loretta]: MC: If we publish a spec that changes any aspect of WCAG2, I think that makes it a Delta Specification, which adds a new level of scrutiny to the process.
15:32:51 [Joshue]: ack ryla
15:33:26 [Loretta]: KHS: ARIA works with html4 and scripting as well as html5; it is technology-agnostic.
15:33:36 [Loretta]: MC: Yes, although an html4 validation won't accept it.
15:34:09 [Joshue]: zakim, next item
15:34:09 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "Background pointers" taken up [from Joshue]
15:34:12 [Joshue]: zakim, next item
15:34:12 [Zakim]: agendum 3 was just opened, Joshue
15:34:28 [MichaelC]: zakim, close this item
15:34:28 [Zakim]: agendum 3 closed
15:34:28 [Joshue]: zakim, close item
15:34:29 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:34:29 [Zakim]: 4. What type of extensions? [from Joshue]
15:34:29 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'close item', Joshue
15:34:33 [MichaelC]: zakim, next item
15:34:33 [Zakim]: agendum 4. "What type of extensions?" taken up [from Joshue]
15:35:11 [Loretta]: JOC: Current potential extensions: mobile, cognitive, low vision.
15:35:30 [Loretta]: JOC: What would such specs be like?
15:35:51 [Loretta]: JOC: Want to keep techniques themselves off the rec track, so we can update them.
15:37:41 [Loretta]: JOC: Should extension specs be structured like WCAG (success criteria with non-normative techniques) or in some other way?
15:38:33 [Mike_Elledge]: q+
15:38:36 [Loretta]: JOC: WHat happens when we find gaps in what WCAG covers? DOes the extension come up with new success criteria, and conformance requirements?
15:39:13 [Joshue]: ack mike
15:39:36 [Loretta]: ME: Is there any harm in structuring things like WCAG2? I like the idea of consistency.
15:40:05 [Joshue]: q?
15:40:06 [Loretta]: JOC: I want to keep things as light as possible, and not bloating the canon.
15:40:29 [Ryladog]: q+
15:40:34 [Joshue]: ack ryla
15:40:34 [Loretta]: MC: Possible harm: if the structure of WCAG2 prevents us from doing something we want to accomplish in an extension spec.
15:40:49 [Loretta]: MC: I'm not sure this is a real risk, but something to consider.
15:41:43 [AWK]: Is wearables part of mobile?
15:41:45 [Loretta]: KHS: additional potential extensions: wearable, automotive.
15:42:12 [Loretta]: KHS: I don't think wearables are part of mobile because it is a different paradigm.
15:42:28 [Loretta]: KHS: May be accessing health info, info about your body, etc.
15:42:45 [Kathy]: q+
15:43:11 [Kathy]: q-
15:43:11 [Joshue]: ack kathy
15:43:16 [Loretta]: KHS: May want to wait for these extensions until the technology itself is more mature.
15:43:32 [yatil]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:43:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html yatil
15:44:07 [Joshue]: q?
15:44:08 [Loretta]: KW: I think there is a lot that may be common or sharable between the different extensions. We should think about how the extensions will interact with one another, too. Maybe it is ok to have duplication between extensions
15:44:42 [Ryladog]: Or touch on an automtive UI or screen
15:44:42 [Loretta]: KW: When considering mobile, we realized that much of what was covered also applies to touch-screen based devices like laptops.
15:44:59 [Loretta]: JOC: Core parts of these extensions may reach across multiple domains.
15:45:21 [Loretta]: zakim, take up next item
15:45:21 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Will extensions be A, AA, AAA?" taken up [from Joshue]
15:45:36 [Ryladog]: q+
15:45:51 [AWK]: q+
15:45:57 [Joshue]: ack awk
15:46:17 [Loretta]: AWK: this is a hard question to answer in the abstract.
15:46:20 [MichaelC]: q+
15:46:42 [Joshue]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2
15:47:05 [Loretta]: AWK: we have the post-wcag2 wiki. We need to look at those items to inform our decisions, as well as the work of the mobile and cognitive task forces.
15:47:14 [AWK]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2
15:47:31 [Loretta]: AWK: who wants to help sort through that information?
15:47:43 [Joshue]: ack ryla
15:48:06 [Zakim]: -Dan_Frank
15:48:14 [AWK]: q+
15:48:20 [Joshue]: ack michael
15:48:23 [Loretta]: KHS: I would like to see most items fall at levels A and AA, since most laws only take those levels.
15:49:06 [Loretta]: MC: If we want extensions to support conformance, A and AA seem to make most sense.
15:49:16 [Ryladog]: +1
15:49:50 [Loretta]: MC: HOwever, a concept of best practices may be important, which may or may not reach the same level of requirements as success criteria.
15:50:15 [Mike_Elledge]: q+
15:50:21 [Joshue]: ack awk
15:50:27 [Loretta]: MC: SOme AAA success criteria are there because they don't apply to all web sites. If we limited the scope of content addressed by extensions, may not need AAA.
15:50:48 [Loretta]: AWK: THe group should review the criteria for A, AA and AAA in the past, and whether to continue with that criteria.
15:51:25 [Loretta]: AWK: However, we don't want to debate the merit of items just based on popular vote. We should have objective criteria for appropriate levels for any extension.
15:51:39 [Loretta]: AWK: Otherwise, it will limit our ability to deliver the extension itself.
15:52:32 [Loretta]: JOC: I feel that these discussions will occur. The debate about AAA success criteria being ignored will affect the extension specs. WOuld AAA in extensions be ignored even more?
15:53:01 [Joshue]: ack mike
15:54:02 [Loretta]: ME: Do we already have something defined as best practices? If not, is it wise to introduce yet another layer of advice. As an implementor, I would think success criteria themselves would meet this need, and if there were a separate category of best practices, I would find it confusing.
15:54:20 [Joshue]: q?
15:54:28 [Loretta]: zakim, take up next item
15:54:28 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Will extensions conform to WCAG requirements for success criteria?" taken up [from Joshue]
15:55:08 [Ryladog]: q+
15:55:16 [Joshue]: ack ryla
15:56:00 [Ryladog]: Maybe, but I am assuming the extensions themselves will in fact have their own SC - that are a required adjunct to WCAG2 if/when adopted. In other words WCAG 2 is the baseline.
15:56:02 [Loretta]: KHS: My initial assumption is that the extensions themselves would have their own success criteria, but would be combined with the WCAG2 success criteria (that is, both sets must be met).
15:56:12 [Mike_Elledge]: +1
15:56:26 [Loretta]: JOC: I hope extensions would conform to the core WCAG success criteria as much as is possible.
15:58:08 [marcjohlic_]: marcjohlic_ has joined #wai-wcag
15:58:27 [Joshue]: LGR: Can the extensions override the WCAG SCs?
15:59:13 [Joshue]: JOC: Yes, will the extension overide WCAG SC?
15:59:25 [Zakim]: -EricE
15:59:31 [yatil]: zakim, call EricE-Skype
15:59:31 [Zakim]: ok, yatil; the call is being made
15:59:33 [Zakim]: +EricE
15:59:39 [Ryladog]: I think this particular discussion can be worked on best at a F2F where many memebers will be able to attend
15:59:45 [yatil]: zakim, nick yatil is EricE
15:59:45 [Zakim]: ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
15:59:48 [yatil]: zakim, mute me
15:59:48 [Zakim]: EricE should now be muted
16:00:07 [Ryladog]: q+
16:00:12 [Joshue]: ack ryla
16:00:54 [Zakim]: -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:00:57 [Loretta]: KHS: This reminds me of the original discussions about levels and priorities, and is best determined in face to face meetings (with critical mass of attendance). It is a very complicated thing that people need to agree to.
16:01:44 [Loretta]: AWK: We do a lot of work not in the same room, and that will probably continue.
16:02:11 [Loretta]: KHS: Still think this kind of discussion of complicated issues works best in person.
16:03:09 [Ryladog]: Just because it hard doesnt mean that we should attempt it
16:03:28 [Loretta]: zakim, take up next item
16:03:28 [Zakim]: agendum 7. "Categorisation of current open issues in the context of the extension model" taken up [from Joshue]
16:03:46 [Ryladog]: What quickly comes to mind is enhancement of visual focus being improved, as well as text and content resize - both under the Low Vision Extension.
16:05:00 [Loretta]: AWK: Looking for volunteers to do some categorization of current open issues. If we ask everyone to do it, no one does it.
16:05:44 [Loretta]: JOC: I should ping LIsa to ask the cognitive group to look at current issues; likewise Kathy and mobile group.
16:07:20 [Zakim]: +James_Nurthen
16:08:05 [AWK]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2
16:09:56 [Loretta]: AWK: Items here may fall into more than one extension category.
16:10:44 [Loretta]: AWK: This has been a place to put things that we couldnt change. Now that we are looking at the possibility of change through extensions, we should look at this items more carefully.
16:12:15 [Loretta]: JOC: Post WCAG 2 page vs Open Issues page?
16:13:48 [Loretta]: MJ: I see an Open Topics page, but no Open Issues page.
16:15:20 [Joshue]: zakim, agenda?
16:15:20 [Zakim]: I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:15:21 [Zakim]: 7. Categorisation of current open issues in the context of the extension model [from Joshue]
16:15:21 [Zakim]: 8. WCAG working group and public engagement/interaction [from Joshue]
16:15:31 [Joshue]: q?
16:15:40 [Loretta]: zakim, take up item 8
16:15:40 [Zakim]: agendum 8. "WCAG working group and public engagement/interaction" taken up [from Joshue]
16:16:25 [Loretta]: JOC: How do we make public interaction with the WG easier? An example is moving to the use of github.
16:16:43 [Loretta]: JOC: How do we facilitate public engagement? How do we get people interested in the work of the group.
16:16:48 [Ryladog]: Suggest JAPANESE outreach
16:17:03 [Loretta]: MC: How can we get useful technique submissions from outside the working group?
16:17:05 [Ryladog]: q+
16:17:51 [Loretta]: MC: technique submission form is usually submitted blank. Even when people try to fill it out, they often don't think about the issues of publishing techniques the same way we do, so we don't use their work, which is discouraging.
16:18:06 [Zakim]: -Loretta
16:18:33 [Joshue]: MC: That ties into the goal for reformatting the source format etc
16:18:47 [AWK]: MC: need to connect techniques and GL's together better
16:18:53 [Joshue]: MC: We can tie the guidelines together in theory and then output them in different ways.
16:19:07 [AWK]: ... need an easier format to encourage greater participation external to the group
16:19:30 [AWK]: ...GitHub may offer possibilities but can also be frustrating for newbies
16:19:49 [yatil]: i/MC: That ties/Scribe: AWK
16:19:51 [AWK]: ... W3C Web annotations may hold some promise also, but new still
16:19:59 [yatil]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:19:59 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html yatil
16:20:20 [AWK]: ... if Web annotations are enabled in the doc people can comment and the annotation is stored on one or more annotation server and people can view that
16:20:28 [AWK]: ... mine for edits
16:20:52 [AWK]: JC: like RE-spec?
16:21:03 [AWK]: MC: Not exactly, that's more behind the scenes
16:21:44 [AWK]: s/JC/JOC
16:21:46 [Joshue]: q?
16:22:07 [Joshue]: ack ryla
16:22:19 [AWK]: KHS: my suggestion was about Japanese outreach as a way to get more people involved.
16:23:27 [AWK]: JOC: we should do as Michael suggested, which is to look at how the WHAT WG spec commenting is done.
16:23:48 [AWK]: ... might make the process easier and lower the bar for participation
16:24:10 [yatil]: Zakim, who has penguins?
16:24:10 [Zakim]: sorry, yatil, I do not recognize a party named 'who'
16:24:36 [AWK]: JOC: OK, I think we are done for today!
16:24:43 [AWK]: Trackbot, end meeting
16:24:43 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:24:43 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Joshue, AWK, Kathy_Wahlbin, Loretta, +1.650.464.aaaa, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Dan_Frank, Marc_Johlic, EricE, Mike_Elledge, Cooper, Kenny,
16:24:44 [Mike_Elledge]: bye!
16:24:47 [Zakim]: ... James_Nurthen
16:24:51 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:24:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
16:24:52 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:24:52 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items
16:24:54 [Zakim]: -Katie_Haritos-Shea