IRC log of indie-ui on 2015-04-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:55:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #indie-ui
20:55:03 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:55:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:55:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #indie-ui
20:55:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be INDIE
20:55:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_Indie()5:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
20:55:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: Independent User Interface Task Force Teleconference
20:55:08 [trackbot]
Date: 01 April 2015
20:55:19 [janina]
20:55:24 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
20:55:24 [janina]
agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
20:55:24 [janina]
agenda+ Future of the IndieUI WG & TF: WBS Followup -- Janina
20:55:24 [janina]
agenda+ Mappings (Continued) -- Rich & Andy [See Below]
20:55:25 [janina]
agenda+ Checkin with Web Apps' Editing TF [See below]
20:55:26 [janina]
agenda+ Editors' Reports
20:55:29 [janina]
agenda+ User Context Issues & Actions
20:55:32 [janina]
agenda+ Events Issues & Actions
20:55:35 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business
20:55:37 [janina]
agenda+ Be Done
20:55:50 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
20:55:50 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()5:00PM has not yet started, janina
20:55:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, janina, MichaelC, joanie, koji, MarkS, trackbot
20:56:09 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()5:00PM has now started
20:56:16 [Zakim]
20:56:21 [janina]
zakim, ??P7 is me
20:56:21 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
20:56:57 [janina]
zakim, next item
20:56:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
20:58:02 [kurosawa]
kurosawa has joined #indie-ui
20:59:40 [Zakim]
20:59:56 [kurosawa]
Zikim, ??P8 is me
21:00:02 [kurosawa]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
21:00:02 [Zakim]
+kurosawa; got it
21:01:59 [Zakim]
21:02:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.759.aaaa
21:02:31 [janina]
zakim, aaaa is Jason_White
21:02:31 [Zakim]
+Jason_White; got it
21:02:44 [Zakim]
21:02:55 [Zakim]
21:03:01 [andy]
andy has joined #indie-ui
21:03:14 [Ryladog]
Ryladog has joined #indie-ui
21:04:02 [Zakim]
21:04:20 [janina]
zakim, ??P0 is Andy_Heath
21:04:20 [Zakim]
I already had ??P0 as Michael_Cooper, janina
21:04:21 [Ryladog]
Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea
21:04:43 [janina]
Regrets: Rich
21:04:52 [Ryladog]
Meeting: IndieUI Working Group Teleconference
21:05:07 [Ryladog]
Chair: Janina
21:05:28 [Ryladog]
zakim, agenda?
21:05:28 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
21:05:29 [Zakim]
1. preview agenda with items from two minutes [from janina]
21:05:29 [Zakim]
2. Future of the IndieUI WG & TF: WBS Followup -- Janina [from janina]
21:05:29 [Zakim]
3. Mappings (Continued) -- Rich & Andy [from See Below via janina]
21:05:30 [Zakim]
4. Checkin with Web Apps' Editing TF [from See below via janina]
21:05:30 [Zakim]
5. Editors' Reports [from janina]
21:05:30 [Zakim]
6. User Context Issues & Actions [from janina]
21:05:31 [Zakim]
7. Events Issues & Actions [from janina]
21:05:31 [Zakim]
8. Other Business [from janina]
21:05:31 [Zakim]
9. Be Done [from janina]
21:05:48 [Zakim]
21:05:56 [jcraig]
jcraig has joined #indie-ui
21:06:11 [Ryladog]
zakim, next item
21:06:11 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Future of the IndieUI WG & TF: WBS Followup -- Janina" taken up [from janina]
21:06:17 [jcraig]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
21:06:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see janina, kurosawa, Joanmarie_Diggs, Jason_White, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper (muted), ??P1, [Apple]
21:06:29 [Ryladog]
Zakim, take up item 1
21:06:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
21:06:46 [jcraig]
Zakim, Apple has jcraig
21:06:46 [Zakim]
+jcraig; got it
21:07:19 [kurosawa]
mute me
21:07:26 [kurosawa]
Zakim, mute me
21:07:26 [Zakim]
kurosawa should now be muted
21:08:18 [Ryladog]
JW: IMS Global is interested in User Context doc
21:08:32 [kurosawa]
Zakim, unmute me
21:08:32 [Zakim]
kurosawa should no longer be muted
21:09:10 [Ryladog]
JS: Is now the co-editor of the Context Spec
21:09:31 [janina]
zakim, next item
21:09:31 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Future of the IndieUI WG & TF: WBS Followup -- Janina" taken up [from janina]
21:09:44 [Ryladog]
AWK: Thanks for completing the survey
21:10:06 [Ryladog]
21:10:11 [jcraig]
survey results URL?
21:11:03 [Ryladog]
JS: No one wants up to drop the work. Majority wants to work with Web Apps and CSS. PF is going to be called PA
21:11:38 [MichaelC]
21:11:40 [andy]
21:12:16 [Ryladog]
JS: Accessible Platform Architectures = APA
21:12:34 [Ryladog]
JS: There was no opposition to the new name
21:13:48 [Ryladog]
JW: My pariority is to see the work carries forward as effectively as possible - with accessibility SME overseeing and working with those groups with clear expectations and deliverable
21:14:07 [Ryladog]
JW: We need more commitment at the outset if things move to other groups
21:14:19 [Ryladog]
JC: Whicha spects?
21:14:59 [Ryladog]
JW: The same issues. Who is going to implement and how. And then who. Thos e in A11Y have the expertise understand the work.
21:15:22 [janina]
21:15:28 [Ryladog]
JW: Who need to be involved and how to make a process work - and find the W3C framework that will best acheive that
21:16:04 [Ryladog]
JC: One word of warning. It is going o be more and more difficult to get implementers involved in speccing vaporware
21:16:36 [MichaelC]
q+ to say joint TF model should address that, and PF can focus on requirements documentation
21:16:57 [Ryladog]
JC: If we develop a bunch of web API prior to nay platform support for them, it sideline the practically. We need to fight against spec bload
21:16:58 [andy]
21:17:08 [Ryladog]
JC: No technology creep
21:17:29 [MichaelC]
ack me
21:17:31 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to say joint TF model should address that, and PF can focus on requirements documentation
21:17:36 [Ryladog]
JC: Aspects could be covered without requiring the....?
21:17:47 [Ryladog]
JS: Others?
21:17:49 [janina]
21:18:33 [Ryladog]
MC: I think the ides of joing task forces suggested on the survey - that should address James concern.
21:19:02 [Ryladog]
MC: APA is focusing on requirement documentation and rely on the spec group to implement that - it will work
21:19:45 [MichaelC]
q+ to talk about IP (after Andy)
21:20:17 [Ryladog]
JC: My concern is that most of the big groups have trouble editing them selves. ARIA is starting to get bloat in 1.1.
21:21:05 [Ryladog]
JC: It is a concern to me is that we try to focus on too much and we dont ever ship a version 1 becasue it never completes enough
21:21:21 [MichaelC]
ack a
21:21:33 [Ryladog]
AH: I support that. I wasnt able to complete the survey.
21:21:52 [janina]
21:22:03 [Ryladog]
AH: I am not sure we need to include the GPII - but I am for the
21:22:26 [MichaelC]
q+ to say self control is possible; but we still need a forum
21:22:33 [Ryladog]
AH: Browsers are implementing and work with that
21:22:47 [Ryladog]
AH: I think we have to get something workable on the ground
21:22:47 [MichaelC]
ack me
21:22:49 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to talk about IP (after Andy) and to say self control is possible; but we still need a forum
21:23:21 [Ryladog]
MC: Respond to IP. I do not think there are not any memebrs of INdieUI who are not part of PF
21:23:24 [andy]
21:23:36 [andy]
21:24:03 [janina]
21:24:12 [Ryladog]
MC: I d not think there are any issues with the User Context moving to the spec part of PF/APA
21:24:33 [Ryladog]
JC: Thre was a lot of reprtition from companies on the WAI charters
21:24:53 [Ryladog]
JC: We want to be inclusive - but we also want to be productive
21:25:46 [Ryladog]
JW: I think what MC sad is right. There is a spec side of PF - whether that she be seperated from the review side - may be woke d out
21:26:29 [Ryladog]
JW: I am not sure why ARIA should end up in by non accessibility groups - and it has to be addressed very carefully
21:27:13 [Ryladog]
JW: It could be an effective method moving forward. I want very strong relationship. Otherwise we will end up with the same people talking to eaach other and notthe implementors
21:27:14 [janina]
21:28:22 [Ryladog]
JS: Events only - with WebApps -I have spoken with one o the chairs - that was very encouraging in them wanting ti take up the work with us in APA. And they want to kikstart
21:28:35 [Ryladog]
JS: I am highly encouraged by that
21:29:26 [MichaelC]
WAPA: Web Accessibility Properties and Actions
21:29:33 [Ryladog]
JS: Another wrinkle - the prposal from MicroSoft that i an activity that would be about events and events management. What is your view about that proposal James?
21:29:44 [MichaelC]
21:29:47 [MichaelC]
ack me
21:30:04 [Ryladog]
JS: If you havnt looked at that please do
21:30:56 [Ryladog]
JS: We started working on events - folks got interested - the editing task force is looking at this use of ARIA in events. And I am unsure if this is jsut for accessibility or not
21:31:07 [Ryladog]
JC: It looks like it os specific to ARIA
21:31:26 [Ryladog]
JS: To work with AAPIs or mainstream?
21:32:05 [Ryladog]
JC: I would be against that if it was beyond accessibility. This specific to ARIA request events.
21:32:40 [Ryladog]
JC: It could work with native HTML button but also ARIA. Theirs is specific to ARIA controls only
21:33:00 [Ryladog]
JC: I woudl want to limit this to ARIA
21:33:11 [Ryladog]
JS: We have to look at it and factor tht in
21:33:24 [Ryladog]
JS: We want a proposal that we could all live with
21:33:40 [Ryladog]
JW: Microsoft is proposing this work for WebApps
21:33:43 [jcraig]
s/against that if it was beyond accessibility. /against an "ARIA Request Event" for something unreleated to accessibility. /
21:33:54 [Ryladog]
JW: That seems useful
21:34:27 [Ryladog]
21:34:41 [jcraig]
s/It could work with native HTML button but also ARIA. Theirs is specific to ARIA controls only/In contrast, IndieUI Events were planned to work with native markup but also custom ARIA widgets./
21:35:25 [Ryladog]
JS: User Context: it keeps getting shoved to the side. We have not reached out to CSS to see about their interested on working on User Context with us
21:35:55 [Ryladog]
JC: The work ha already been working done as media features are already being implemented in CSS4
21:36:53 [Ryladog]
JC: It is not that CSS is going to take up User Contect - itt is that they are taking up feature that were in IndieUI will eb implemented - some specific to seciryt
21:37:15 [Ryladog]
JS: It seesm that there are a number of features that they were not interetsed in taking up
21:38:09 [Ryladog]
JC: Given how this has happend in the last couplde of years - I suggest that we do not include things that are already in CSS and we get the securoty model in - and the things that dont firt will come in a future vrsion
21:38:45 [Ryladog]
JC: Specific example: whether are not your font size is enlarged Is that good to have in media feature?
21:38:57 [Ryladog]
JC: Might be better for a v2
21:39:19 [Ryladog]
JC: Perferred caption BG color - which is well with in CSS
21:40:11 [Ryladog]
JS: Timeline I think is at odds with the urgency with what Jason and Andy said
21:40:31 [Ryladog]
JS: It appeasr that it will take CSS longer to get to it
21:40:52 [Ryladog]
JS: If we get somethings done - it might becaome more attractive to CSS
21:41:44 [Ryladog]
JW: It doesnt seem to me as ammenable to a relationship with APA.
21:42:22 [Ryladog]
JW: Folks have different priorities - it doesnt seem like it may fit with in a joint-task force. Mayb something looser
21:42:29 [janina]
21:43:11 [Ryladog]
AH: User COntext exists as it is - and can be used all over the place - might be implemented in different technlologies in different places
21:43:58 [Ryladog]
JW: We could set out a range of usable user preferences and that feature is provided for in an API and how they all get covered overtime
21:44:25 [Ryladog]
...not necessarrily a normative document....if that is what you are thinking
21:44:52 [Ryladog]
AH: Implementations have two implementations
21:45:25 [Ryladog]
AH: That is worth for a less formal document
21:45:53 [Ryladog]
JC: the media features that are referencable are referenced from the current User Context draft
21:46:33 [Ryladog]
AH: I tthink that is fine. One groupf not implmenting one of our fetaires - we just need to go out and find someone who will get implemented
21:46:55 [Ryladog]
JS: You actually have to work with vendor to get implementations
21:47:43 [Ryladog]
JC: We dont want what happened in ARIA - mdragdrop was added just haphazardly at the end
21:48:37 [Ryladog]
JC: Because it was speced and finalized before was there any real work done - but it not effective. I do not want to waste resources if there is not a way for a user to turn them on
21:49:36 [Ryladog]
AH: I am not arguing for holding up. One example: smalled interfaces?
21:49:50 [Ryladog]
JC: I current spec id tied to JS and CSS APIs
21:49:50 [Zakim]
21:50:09 [Ryladog]
JC: The IoT that upport web technologies
21:51:15 [Ryladog]
JS: Alot of them do support web technologies - it goes to a company website.
21:53:02 [Ryladog]
AH: A lot of these things are no necessary implementable on web devices
21:53:39 [Ryladog]
JS: We can develope reqirements and user cases and notes if we are not going to craete specs
21:54:01 [Ryladog]
AH: My point was that those devices do not have OS like othet things
21:54:57 [Ryladog]
JS: Ther is not time to get another heartbeat out
21:55:10 [Ryladog]
JS: Well take that up when Jason gets back
21:55:13 [janina]
zakim, next item
21:55:13 [Zakim]
agendum 3. " Mappings (Continued) -- Rich & Andy" taken up [from See Below]
21:55:41 [Ryladog]
AH: I'd rather have Rich here for this....
21:56:01 [jcraig]
JC: Still not sure what this discussion has to do with IndieUI. The IoT devices you're referring to (thermostats, etc) have custom APIs controlled by the manufacturer; your control of that through a website is entirely unrelated to these custom APIs. Where they may overlap is controlled by each manufacturer.
21:56:06 [Ryladog]
JS: Jason may be unable to spend of all that time as he is fixing up his new house
21:56:23 [andy]
21:56:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.609.906.aabb
21:57:02 [janina]
zakim, aabb is Jason_White
21:57:02 [Zakim]
+Jason_White; got it
21:57:04 [Ryladog]
AH: The only chnage is we started to map in the security model - whether it is relvant to a particlar context oe not
21:58:49 [Ryladog]
JS: We are talking about a heartbeat. Can we make a best guess as to what will survive th edebate
21:58:59 [Ryladog]
JW: I think that is feasible
21:59:33 [Ryladog]
JC: User- is a variable not a media juery
22:00:33 [Ryladog]
JC: These are currently not thongs that can be used with a CSS propoerty. REmove the prefox user-
22:01:09 [Ryladog]
JC: Full keyboard access would be @media keyboard access - but you cnnot set that as a property
22:01:26 [Ryladog]
JC: You can use all the stuff after that
22:03:40 [MichaelC]
ack me
22:03:42 [jcraig]
s/You can use all the stuff after that/if you remove all instances of
22:04:29 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
22:04:47 [MichaelC]
JW: would like concrete proposals for how joint TFs would look
22:04:58 [MichaelC]
JS: will bring forward as soon as we have some clarity
22:05:05 [MichaelC]
JW: seems WebApps is pretty clar
22:05:10 [jcraig]
s/You can use all the stuff after that/if you remove all instances of "user-" we can debate the rest. the user- prefix referred to a CSS property value (variable), not a media feature as written here. e.g. font-size: user-font-size;
22:05:11 [MichaelC]
22:05:18 [MichaelC]
User Context less so
22:05:28 [jcraig]
The syntax is also TDB. Might be font-size: user-pref(font-size);
22:05:33 [Zakim]
22:05:35 [Zakim]
22:05:36 [Zakim]
22:05:42 [Zakim]
22:05:43 [Zakim]
22:05:49 [Zakim]
22:05:50 [Zakim]
22:05:50 [Zakim]
22:05:51 [Zakim]
WAI_Indie()5:00PM has ended
22:05:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were janina, kurosawa, Joanmarie_Diggs, +1.609.759.aaaa, Jason_White, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper, jcraig, +1.609.906.aabb
22:07:55 [jcraig]
For example, the one listed here as user-no-MotionSimulation was proposed to CSS as "prefers-reduced-motion"; we've determined its rare that a user ever wants "no" motion; but there are certain types of motions (zooms, parallax) that should be reduced or changes (crossfade, flat pan, etc) in order to prevent vestibular issues.
22:09:22 [jcraig]
"no sound hazard" doesn't seem to make sense as a warning. if there is a hazard, the user should have audio off or down on their device thereby preventing a webpage from being able to present them with a hazard...
22:10:36 [jcraig]
but it could work as a media feature, e.g. @media (audio: none) { /* flash screen if either sound volume is down or if user is deaf */ }
22:19:03 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:19:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
22:22:19 [MichaelC]
present- +1.609.759.aaaa
22:22:26 [MichaelC]
present- +1.609.906.aabb
22:22:31 [MichaelC]
scribeOptions: -final
22:23:01 [MichaelC]
s/Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea/scribe: Ryladog/
22:23:15 [MichaelC]
s/Zikim, ??P8 is me//
22:23:30 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:23:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MichaelC
22:24:07 [MichaelC]
zakim, bye
22:24:07 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
22:24:07 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
22:24:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #indie-ui