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15:00:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/01-hcls-irc
15:00:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:00:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:00:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM already started
15:01:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:01:00 <trackbot> Date: 01 April 2015
15:01:03 <Zakim> +DBooth
15:01:11 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
15:01:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, DBooth
15:01:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, dbooth, TallTed, cloudcell_, trackbot, ericP
15:01:41 <dbooth> zakim, ??P5 is ericP
15:01:41 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
15:02:18 <Tony> Tony has joined #HCLS
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Tony
15:03:17 <twamarc> twamarc has joined #HCLS
15:03:19 <Lloyd> Lloyd has joined #HCLS
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15:04:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:03 <Lloyd> zakim, ipcaller is lloyd
15:04:03 <Zakim> +lloyd; got it
15:04:41 <Zakim> +??P19
15:04:53 <twamarc> Zakim, ??p19  is Marc_Twagirumukiza
15:04:53 <Zakim> +Marc_Twagirumukiza; got it
15:05:23 <rhausam> rhausam has joined #HCLS
15:05:45 <hsolbrig> The dial in is being crabby
15:06:00 <Zakim> +rhausam
15:06:06 <ericP> crabby or just reluctant
15:06:12 <ericP> ?
15:06:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:47 <ericP> Zakim, [ is claude
15:06:47 <Zakim> +claude; got it
15:07:04 <hsolbrig> Crabby in "This is the Zakim conference bridge... followed by "ring ring ring" followed by a hang up"
15:07:12 <Claude> Claude has joined #hcls
15:07:12 <hsolbrig> reluctant
15:07:37 <hsolbrig> Not sure what I can do when Zakim refuses to talk to me
15:07:39 <dbooth> harold, try the code right after the first message
15:08:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:08:03 <dbooth> .. before it tells you to enter it.
15:09:09 <ericP> agenda+ ordering
15:09:21 <ericP> agenda+ equiv vs. same spelling
15:09:50 <ericP> Zakim, [ is harold
15:09:50 <Zakim> +harold; got it
15:10:07 <ericP> agenda?
15:12:36 <Claude> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
15:13:15 <Zakim> -Marc_Twagirumukiza
15:14:21 <Zakim> +??P19
15:14:25 <twamarc> Zakim, ??p19  is Marc_Twagirumukiza
15:14:25 <Zakim> +Marc_Twagirumukiza; got it
15:15:41 <ericP> agenda+ RDF syntax
15:15:50 <ericP> Zakim, take up agendum 1
15:15:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ordering" taken up [from ericP]
15:16:28 <dbooth> lloyd: In XML, sibling ordering matters, but not in JSON, so not in RDF either.
15:17:12 <dbooth> ... Where we cannot redetermine order from the metadata is in repeating elements, such as 5 names.
15:17:22 <Zakim> -Marc_Twagirumukiza
15:17:35 <dbooth> ... Order must be maintained even if the spec doesn't explicitly say that it is semantically important.
15:17:55 <dbooth> ... Dig sig will need ordering too.
15:17:59 <dbooth> eric: that's doable.
15:18:11 <twamarc> sorry keeping being disconnected ---don't know why!
15:18:42 <dbooth> lloyd: If the cardinality is more than one, then ordering must be retained.
15:18:56 <Zakim> + +1.323.444.aaaa
15:19:12 <twamarc> Zakim, +1.323.444.aaaa  is Marc_Twagirumukiza
15:19:12 <Zakim> +Marc_Twagirumukiza; got it
15:20:14 <Lloyd> http://hl7-fhir.github.io/observation.html
15:21:54 <ericP>  &lt;<a title="Who was responsible for asserting the observed value as &quot;true&quot;." class="dict" href="observation-definitions.html#Observation.performer"><b>performer</b></a>&gt;<span style="color: Gray">&lt;!--</span> <span style="color: brown"><b>0..*</b></span> <span style="color: darkgreen"><a href="references.html#Resource">Resource</a>(<a href="practitioner.html#Practitioner">Practitioner</a>|<a href="device.html#Device">Device</a>|<a href="organizat[CUT]
15:22:18 <ericP> from observation.profile.xml
15:22:27 <dbooth> ISSUE: What RDF mechanism to use for lists/sequences?
15:22:28 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-5 - What rdf mechanism to use for lists/sequences?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/issues/5/edit>.
15:22:33 <ericP> <b>0..*</b>
15:23:38 <Lloyd> http://hl7-fhir.github.io/observation.profile.xml.html
15:24:27 <dbooth>       <max value="*"/>
15:25:42 <ericP> //element[path@value="Observation.performer"]/definition/max
15:26:13 <ericP>  /Profile/structure/element[path@value="Observation.performer"]/definition/max
15:26:47 <dbooth> lloyd: Any max other than 1 requires ordering to be preserved.
15:27:56 <dbooth> ... Ecore in Eclipse is useful for code generation
15:28:23 <dbooth> eric: Any technique for property equivalence?
15:29:03 <dbooth> lloyd: FHIR doesn't capture property equivalence
15:29:23 <ericP> Lloyd: W5 column asserts the primary object and the timing of a resource
15:29:33 <ericP> ... more of a subproperty than an equiv
15:30:55 <dbooth> q+ to suggest distinguishing between basic mapping needed for round tripping versus icing helpful for inference and other use
15:31:43 <ericP> Lloyd: e.g. {ValueSet,StructureDefinition,ValueSetDefinition}.publisher are logically equiv
15:32:10 <ericP> Zakim, take up next agendum
15:32:10 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ericP
15:33:07 <dbooth> zakim, ack dbooth
15:33:07 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to suggest distinguishing between basic mapping needed for round tripping versus icing helpful for inference and other use
15:33:09 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
15:33:23 <ericP> Lloyd: i don't see equiv property as part of initial pass
15:33:29 <ericP> Zakim, take up next agendum
15:33:29 <Zakim> agendum 2. "equiv vs. same spelling" taken up [from ericP]
15:34:53 <ericP> Lloyd: i expect that round tripping the instances will involve minimal icing
15:38:19 <dbooth> eric: let's look at tony's work
15:38:38 <ericP> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
15:38:49 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
15:40:54 <dbooth> tony: looked at common properties across FHIR resources
15:41:04 <dbooth> ... counted about 230 of them.
15:42:03 <ericP> Lloyd: these [equiv?] aren't safe
15:42:31 <dbooth> lloyd: None of these are safe
15:42:48 <dbooth> ... Every place you see the property 'code' or something else, it could mean something completely different.
15:43:18 <dbooth> ... There's no way from the FHIR metadata to determine whether they really are the same property (semantically)
15:43:31 <dbooth> ... Even W5 does not indicate sameness.
15:44:29 <dbooth> tony: AllergyIntolerance has a recordedDate
15:44:52 <dbooth> lloyd: But it's really AllergyIntolerance.recordedDate -- fully qualified.
15:46:37 <dbooth> tony: Could map all of the fully qualified FHIR names to RDF URI
15:46:55 <egonw> egonw has joined #HCLS
15:47:18 <dbooth> ... or could may non-fully-qualified names to RDF URIs and then distinguish them by the context of their usage.
15:47:50 <dbooth> eric: The sweet point that ontologists try to get is to have common properties that have restrictions on their use.
15:47:58 <dbooth> lloyd: Yes, but not restrictions on meaning.
15:48:38 <dbooth> q+ to say this is exactly one of the problems that we faced in the JSON-LD approach
15:49:14 <dbooth> lloyd: fhir:date could mean: 1. time last changed 2. time the action was performed 3. time sent 4. time the entity came into being.
15:49:21 <dbooth> ... These are different meanings.
15:50:20 <dbooth> claude: I don't like the naming of attributes as types -- not informative.  You don't know what it is.
15:51:32 <dbooth> lloyd: We have elements called things like 'date'.  We don't decorate names when the context makes the meanign clear.
15:51:42 <Zakim> -harold
15:54:04 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
15:54:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see ericP, DBooth, Tony, lloyd, rhausam, claude, Marc_Twagirumukiza
15:54:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see egonw, Claude, rhausam, Lloyd, twamarc, Tony, Zakim, RRSAgent, dbooth, TallTed, cloudcell_, trackbot, ericP
15:57:35 <ericP> Claude: we have to autogenerate this mapping so we can't rely on knowledge from outside the definition process, we won't be able to do this by machine
15:58:07 <ericP> Lloyd: "code" isn't safe; needs to be "AdverseReaction.code"
15:59:29 <dbooth> dbooth: this is grouping them by their spelling, rather than by their semantics
15:59:52 <Claude> I would argue that if you see ValueSet.date, this is not informative from context. I would need to read the definition to understand its meaning
16:00:08 <twamarc> having always umbrella property on top reject obviously the idea of having generic properties. isn't it?
16:00:30 <dbooth> FHIR has no generic properties (or at least almost none)
16:01:25 <dbooth> ack dbooth
16:01:25 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say this is exactly one of the problems that we faced in the JSON-LD approach
16:01:58 <dbooth> +1 to fully qualified names
16:05:13 <dbooth> AGREED: Use fully qualified FHIR names for RDF properties
16:06:02 <Zakim> -Marc_Twagirumukiza
16:06:11 <dbooth> eric: Should also show example of the benefit of non-fully qualified names to motivate FHIR spec to add info on equivalences between properties
16:06:45 <Zakim> -ericP
16:07:02 <dbooth> lloyd: Asserting equivalences can be either with short (common) names or with other (explicit) equivalence relationships
16:07:17 <dbooth> oops! out of time!
16:07:51 <Zakim> -claude
16:08:18 <dbooth> Topic: Next steps
16:08:51 <dbooth> lloyd: Need to address how to deal with identifiers and codes.
16:09:20 <dbooth> ... Might be useful to go through element definitions and see what is needed for RDF.
16:10:03 <Zakim> This conference is in overtime; all ports must be freed
16:10:22 <Lloyd> http://hl7-fhir.github.io/xml.html
16:10:26 <Zakim> -Tony
16:10:29 <Zakim> -DBooth
16:10:38 <Zakim> -rhausam
16:10:42 <Zakim> -lloyd
16:10:44 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
16:10:44 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, ericP, Tony, lloyd, Marc_Twagirumukiza, rhausam, [IPcaller], claude, harold
16:10:55 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth and EricP
16:11:06 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes?
16:11:06 <RRSAgent> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'draft minutes'
16:11:12 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/01-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
16:12:01 <dbooth> Present: DBooth, ericP, Tony, lloyd, Marc_Twagirumukiza, rhausam,  claude, harold
16:13:03 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:13:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/01-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
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