18:47:42 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:47:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/31-aapi-irc
18:47:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:47:44 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:47:46 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:47:46 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
18:47:47 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:47:47 <trackbot> Date: 31 March 2015
18:48:21 <clown> agenda:  this
18:48:27 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1590: (Joseph/James) Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array.
18:48:32 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1279: (All) Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis.
18:48:37 <clown> agenda+ All: User Agent Implementation face-to-face in Augsut.
18:48:52 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:48:57 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup.
18:49:03 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-708: (All) Section 5.1.2: Condition on including elements in the accessibility tree is ambiguous.
18:49:07 <clown> agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:49:12 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:50:55 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:51:02 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:51:13 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:51:13 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:51:20 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:51:20 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:51:27 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:19 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.650.738.aaaa
19:12:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:13:18 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:17:45 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:18:07 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:18:07 <Zakim> sorry, bgaraventa1979, I do not see a party named 'Bryan_Garaventa'
19:18:26 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:18:33 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, aaaa is Bryan_Garaventa
19:18:33 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa; got it
19:18:57 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:18:57 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:19:55 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:19:58 <MichaelC> MichaelC has left #aapi
19:20:05 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:20:17 <cyns> zakim, microsoft has me
19:20:17 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
19:20:18 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:20:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1590: (Joseph/James) Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array." taken up [from clown]
19:20:23 <clown> action-1590?
19:20:23 <trackbot> action-1590 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array -- due 2015-02-27 -- CLOSED
19:20:23 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1590
19:20:34 <joanie> JS: I noticed there was an error in the mappings for aria-owns.
19:21:17 <joanie> JS: I asked James and he got back to me yesterday to confirm that it is AXOwns and not AXLinkedUIElements.
19:21:27 <joanie> JS: Therefore, I have closed this action.
19:21:37 <joanie> RS: Apple has an AXOwns?
19:21:52 <joanie> JS: I came across it awhile back. I'm not sure how long it's been there.
19:22:11 <joanie> JS: This prompted my question about the mapping for aria-owns on the Apple.
19:22:15 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:22:15 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1279: (All) Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis." taken up [from clown]
19:22:21 <clown> action-1279?
19:22:21 <trackbot> action-1279 -- Shane McCarron to Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis -- due 2013-10-25 -- OPEN
19:22:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1279
19:22:28 <joanie> JS: I brought this up on list yesterday. Rich has already replied.
19:22:49 <joanie> JS: There's an old action about asking mobile manufacturers about incuding their mappings in our specs.
19:23:45 <joanie> RS: We couldn't get it in time for ARIA 1.0.
19:24:22 <joanie> RS: Interfaces in some cases add some further complication for mapping.
19:24:49 <joanie> RS: For instance, how do you get the header information?
19:25:30 <joanie> RS: I also sent a note to Dominic regarding what Google does.
19:28:30 <joanie> JD: Apple now has an open means via which developers and testers can build and examine WebKit/Safari for iOS via simulator.
19:29:05 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0247.html
19:29:11 <joanie> JS: Dominic has already applied (link above)
19:29:23 <joanie> JS: (Reads from above message from Dominic)
19:29:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:30:08 <joanie> JD: Here is the link I mentioned https://www.webkit.org/blog/3457/building-webkit-for-ios-simulator/
19:30:43 <joanie> RS and JS: We need to know if we can do this in the 1.1 timeframe
19:30:46 <joanie> RS: I will ask.
19:31:17 <joanie> JS: We can do the Microsoft mappings in time for 1.1: Just use UIA.
19:31:30 <joanie> JS: What does Firefox do on the Android?
19:32:13 <joanie> JD: They also have Firefox OS. I know they're actively working on that, but I don't know any details.
19:32:21 <joanie> JS: Should this still belong to Shane?
19:32:35 <joanie> RS: I don't know how it got assigned to Shane.
19:32:51 <joanie> RS: Assign it to me for now.
19:34:08 <joanie> JD: Someone perhaps should ping Mozilla about the Firefox OS mappings.
19:34:20 <joanie> JS: I'll ping Yura.
19:35:40 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:35:40 <Zakim> agendum 3. "All: User Agent Implementation face-to-face in Augsut." taken up [from clown]
19:35:53 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:35:53 <joanie> JS: This is something Joanie wanted me to add to the agenda.
19:36:24 <clown> JD:  Thanks to all the work I'm doing on new table roles, I think it would be good to face-to-face.
19:36:37 <clown> JD:  Specifically the user agent issues.
19:36:50 <clown> JD:  We'd want gecko developers theres.
19:37:02 <clown> JD:  We'd want Cynthis to rep. Microsoft.
19:37:07 <clown> JD:  And, we'd want James.
19:37:16 <clown> JD: And Joseph, since he's the editor.
19:37:42 <clown> JD:  A lot of the people would already be in Toronto around that time.
19:38:01 <clown> JD:  It would be good if Chris, Cynthia, and James could come.
19:38:26 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:38:27 <clown> JD:  We could do work on harmonziing the mappings across platforms.
19:38:47 <joanie> CS: I might be able to come. But I'm not yet sure.
19:39:15 <joanie> JS: My take on the meeting is to get consistency across platforms in mapping.
19:39:43 <joanie> JS: I'm not yet sure if I'll be able to attend.
19:43:51 <joanie> (Group discusses other possibilities for having a face-to-face. No current, potentiall-viable candidates.)
19:44:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/31-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:45:09 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:45:09 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements." taken up [from clown]
19:45:15 <clown> action-1373?
19:45:15 <trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2015-03-24 -- OPEN
19:45:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
19:45:25 <joanie> JS: This one was delayed last week until today.
19:45:42 <joanie> CS: I haven't had a chance yet. Leave it overdue.
19:45:44 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:45:44 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, joanie
19:45:49 <joanie> Zakim, close item 4
19:45:49 <Zakim> agendum 4, ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements., closed
19:45:53 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:45:53 <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup. [from clown]
19:45:53 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:45:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup." taken up [from clown]
19:46:04 <joanie> JS: This is progress on the how to map rowgroup.
19:46:07 <clown> issue-700?
19:46:07 <trackbot> issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open
19:46:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
19:46:16 <joanie> JS: What happened was Rich sent email to Alex and the list last week.
19:46:28 <joanie> JS: Alex and I engaged in a discussion about it.
19:47:04 <joanie> JS: What we suggested that if rowgroup doesn't have a name and isn't focusable, it shouldn't be exposed.
19:47:10 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0215.html
19:47:35 <joanie> JS: Alex said that if it has a role, it should be exposed and he doesn't want to have to check if it's focusable or has a name, etc.
19:48:03 <joanie> JS: In other words, Alex says if it has role="rowgroup" it should still be exposed via the accessibility API.
19:48:18 <joanie> CS: We don't do that, though I can understand why.
19:48:36 <joanie> JS: Alex says it's more efficient to just put it in.
19:48:48 <joanie> JS: If you have a bare thead or tbody, they don't map it.
19:48:55 <joanie> CS: It seems like they should be the same.
19:49:05 <joanie> CS: And they don't map every single element.
19:50:07 <joanie> JD: There are also implications for the new non-interactive table roles (e.g. thead)
19:50:25 <joanie> CS: We already have conditional code for role mapping.
19:50:46 <joanie> JS: To clarify, he did say they don't do that for role="presentation".
19:51:01 <joanie> CS: I question whether the performance impact is that big a deal.
19:56:06 <clown> scribenick: clown
19:56:23 <clown> JD:  If the rowgroup is focusable, then it is in the tree.  We agreed on that.
19:56:37 <clown> CS:  Anything that is focusable is in the tree.
19:56:58 <clown> JD: Right, but that means Orca already has to be ready to handle a focusable rowgroup.
19:57:25 <clown> JD: Given that, the code is there, and if Orca has to deal with a meaningless rowgroup, it can.
19:57:50 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:58:16 <joanie> JS: Last week we agreed if rowgroup is present, but not focusable and doesn't have an attribute, it doesn't get mapped.
19:58:36 <joanie> JS: And we emailed him our conclusions.
19:58:52 <joanie> RS: The problem is nobody else is mapping it, right?
19:59:01 <joanie> JS: Apple isn't and I don't think Microsoft isn't.
19:59:06 <joanie> JS: And Joanie doesn't want to.
19:59:54 <joanie> RS: I'd like to be consistent across the platforms.
20:00:38 <joanie> JS: The impression I get is that Alex is not totally opposed to it, but he'd prefer not to have to special case this.
20:01:56 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:01:56 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ISSUE-708: (All) Section 5.1.2: Condition on including elements in the accessibility tree is ambiguous." taken up [from clown]
20:02:06 <clown> issue-708?
20:02:06 <trackbot> issue-708 -- The phrase "If not already excluded from the accessibility tree per the rules above" implies that the listed conditions do not override. Is that correct? -- open
20:02:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/708
20:02:10 <joanie> JS: I started looking at the rules about when to include things in the tree.
20:02:23 <joanie> JS: I found there's there's "if" clause that I don't like.
20:02:29 <joanie> JS: (Reads from spec)
20:02:51 <joanie> CS: There were some special cases where we excluded things.
20:02:59 <joanie> CS: What are the listed exclusions?
20:03:13 <joanie> JS: (Reads from the "excluded" part)
20:04:11 <joanie> s/the "excluded" part/Section 5.1.1/
20:04:33 <joanie> CS: We probably can re-open this discussion.
20:05:03 <joanie> CS: There was a lot of discussion in the past between PF and HTML about this.
20:08:07 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:08:49 <clown> Exclusion rules:  http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#exclude_elements2
20:09:02 <clown> Inclusion rules: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
20:09:39 <joanie> CS: We should bring this up at the taskforce and get input from Steve and others.
20:10:43 <clown> action:  Cynthia to bring up issue-708 with the html-a11y taskforce.
20:10:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1608 - Bring up issue-708 with the html-a11y taskforce. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-04-07].
20:10:48 <clown> action-1608?
20:10:49 <trackbot> action-1608 -- Cynthia Shelly to Bring up issue-708 with the html-a11y taskforce. -- due 2015-04-07 -- OPEN
20:10:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1608
20:11:19 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:13:54 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:14:34 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
20:15:00 <joanie> present- cyns
20:15:09 <joanie> present- aaaa
20:15:15 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:15:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/31-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:16:38 <joanie> present: Cynthia_Shelly, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Bryan_Garaventa
20:16:41 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:16:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/31-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:17:02 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop