13:01:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
13:01:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/20-svg-a11y-irc
13:01:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
13:01:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg-a11y
13:01:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
13:01:47 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:01:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
13:01:49 <trackbot> Date: 20 March 2015
13:01:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
13:02:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
13:02:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
13:02:19 <fesch> scribenick: fesch
13:03:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility
13:04:32 <fesch> rich: need to interlock with Cognitive A11y task force
13:04:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Cognitive Accessibility Use Cases
13:05:04 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is LJWatson
13:05:06 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
13:05:16 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:05:16 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I don't know what conference this is
13:05:18 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, fesch, LJWatson, chaals, shepazu, ed, MichaelC, nikos, trackbot
13:05:27 <LJWatson> zakim, this is 2742
13:05:27 <Zakim> ok, LJWatson; that matches WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM
13:05:39 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
13:05:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see fesch, [IPcaller], Jason_White (muted), Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:05:52 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
13:05:52 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
13:05:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich connect with Lisa Seeman to have an interlock discussion on Cogintive A11y Use Cases
13:05:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1599 - Connect with lisa seeman to have an interlock discussion on cogintive a11y use cases [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-03-27].
13:05:59 <fesch> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/2015Mar/0013.html
13:07:23 <fesch> rich: need to work on taxonomy for graphics, but we haven't reached consensus yet
13:07:48 <fesch> rich: two paths - can look at use cases, or build a draft
13:08:09 <fesch> lw : I would like to look at use cases
13:08:14 <fesch> fe: +1
13:08:21 <chaals> [+1]
13:08:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:08:56 <chaals> zakim, [ip is me
13:08:56 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
13:09:03 <fesch> rich: I think we need to start with charts, I know Jason wants to start with STEM graphics
13:09:11 <LJWatson> +1 to starting with charts.
13:09:37 <fesch> rich: I think we may have major taxonomies here... but where will we have decision points where we have to drill down in graphics
13:09:57 <fesch> rich: do we need to focus on connectors?
13:10:28 <fesch> rich: what is the feedback on Doug's Describeler? Do we need auditory feedback?
13:11:15 <fesch> rich: we are talking about navigation strategy for graphics, how soon do we need to worry about connectors?
13:11:42 <fesch> rich: for example where do we go to first?
13:12:06 <fesch> fred: follow NCAM... title, axes, data, reference elements
13:12:11 <chaals> q+ to say we should also look at process diagrams…
13:12:20 <fesch> rich: what is the navigation strategy
13:12:52 <fesch> lw: likes Doug's navigation strategy - close to NCAM
13:13:41 <fesch> rich: needs a strategy for chart navigation
13:13:56 <fesch> fred: we did this for RAVE... but we should be open
13:15:12 <chaals> [+1 to Léonie]
13:15:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Leonie Get with Doug to build a starting navigation strategy for charts
13:15:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1600 - Get with doug to build a starting navigation strategy for charts [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-03-27].
13:15:59 <fesch> fred: I believe we sighted users and users of AT will be different, sighted users will want to use arrow keys with cardinal directions,
13:16:20 <fesch> fred: users of AT, cardinal directions don't work so well.
13:16:34 <fesch> chaals:
13:16:59 <fesch> chaals: I think we should use a couple of dozen real charts
13:18:06 <fesch> fred to mail zip of charts to chaals
13:18:16 <fesch> rich: need real use cases for charts
13:18:29 <fesch> rich: related to this is the connector spec
13:19:16 <fesch> rich: any idea how implemented the connector spec is implemented?  Figure out how to navigate via connectors
13:19:37 <chaals> q+
13:19:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich Take a look at the Connector Spec. and develop navigation strategy and identify semantic points of interest
13:19:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1601 - Take a look at the connector spec. and develop navigation strategy and identify semantic points of interest [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-03-27].
13:19:40 <Zakim> -Jason_White
13:20:33 <Zakim> +Jason_White
13:21:33 <chaals> q?
13:21:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:21:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
13:21:52 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to say we should also look at process diagrams… and to
13:22:07 <fesch> fred: for connectors we emulated aria-flowto with breadcrumbs or position in the list of nodes
13:22:27 <LJWatson> q+ to note there are already ARIA roles for tree structures.
13:23:21 <fesch> chaals: if you have a complex flow chart, need to provide a way to know the decisions, for tree structures it is simple for cyclic charts it is not so simple
13:23:26 <fesch> q+
13:23:50 <fesch> chaals: for example a subway map is a good use case
13:23:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
13:23:51 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to note there are already ARIA roles for tree structures.
13:24:10 <fesch> lw: we already have semantics for a simple tree structure
13:24:20 <LJWatson> ack me
13:24:37 <fesch> rich: cognitive task force might help with this since it is cognitive issues
13:24:52 <chaals> [+1 that cognitive issues about tracking complex diagrams will be relevant to getting this right]
13:25:11 <fesch> jw: graphs can be complicated, directed or not directed, can be in many forms, may need general strategies
13:26:12 <fesch> jw: need a way for AT to process them, but need to capture important semantics, note an edge graph addresses a large class of graphs
13:27:10 <chaals> [mindmap is another example of a use case]
13:27:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: the thing where I hunted a lot on is it usable as a chart was with interactive decision trees. The decision tree is challenging itself.
13:27:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: It seems very complicated
13:27:23 <fesch> ack me
13:27:41 <fesch> jw: may need tactile display
13:28:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: breadth is important
13:28:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> fesch: Doug’s example was great but we need something that works on an industrial scale
13:28:49 <chaals> [Given that people catch metros and read flowcharts now, I'm not sure that full-size tactile displays are a necessary part of the solution]
13:29:18 <LJWatson> q+
13:29:19 <fesch> jw: the more complicated it is, the more we need the techniques, so we need to scale with complexity of the graphics
13:29:43 <fesch> rich: a big challenge is how to manage information on the chart
13:30:10 <fesch> rich: will have to go to AT vendors and work with them on how to implement
13:30:33 <fesch> rich: this will be more challenging than ARIA, blazing new ground
13:30:51 <fesch> rich: Jason - what about the STEM graphics?
13:31:20 <fesch> jw: STEM are very important - can we give you an action on STEM graphics
13:31:29 <LJWatson> ack me
13:32:57 <chaals> ACTION: jason to find some STEM graphics to consider as use cases
13:32:58 <trackbot> 'jason' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., jkiss, jjwhite).
13:33:14 <chaals> ACTION: jjwhite to find some STEM graphics to consider as use cases
13:33:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1602 - Find some stem graphics to consider as use cases [on Jason White - due 2015-03-27].
13:36:04 <fesch> fred to send svg to chaals
13:36:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/29
13:38:47 <fesch> jw: need to see whether the commonalities between groups
13:39:07 <fesch> jw: different scenarios what overlap and what is unique about use cases
13:39:48 <fesch> rich: did we get to mobility impairments?
13:39:55 <fesch> Jw: no
13:41:12 <fesch> chaals: complex charts interativity is complex
13:41:41 <fesch> jw: concern is keyboard support?
13:42:09 <fesch> rich: do we want to depend on touch device interactivity?
13:43:19 <fesch> rich: wcag was dependent on keyboard interaction, 2 dimensional navigation is possible
13:43:53 <chaals> q+
13:44:26 <fesch> rich: need to look into 2D navigation is working with AT
13:45:03 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to work with JasonW, MarkkuH and the universe to discover how people do interaction…
13:45:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1603 - Work with jasonw, markkuh and the universe to discover how people do interaction… [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-03-27].
13:45:47 <fesch> chaals: the way people with touch screens are different than the way they use keyboards
13:46:06 <fesch> jw: speech input is another distinct scenario
13:46:55 <fesch> jw: nobody thought that a physical keyboards were an acceptable requirement, but all other inputs could be mapped to keyboard input
13:47:28 <chaals> q+
13:47:51 <fesch> jw: may have to support some kind of keyboard input for navigation, but we should also look at what we can do with 2D interaction (touch)
13:48:26 <fesch> jw: puts pressure on navigation and interaction strategies
13:48:26 <chaals> q?
13:49:07 <fesch> rich: CSUN... 508... feedback, old, doesn't address types of devices we have today
13:49:20 <LJWatson> q+ to say another reason for making interaction efficient is that it eases the cognitive load.
13:49:25 <fesch> rich: asked to do things on a 3 - 5 year cycle
13:49:48 <fesch> rich: need to provide strategy to follow technology more quickly
13:50:51 <fesch> jw: extending richness and complexity in the graphics now... agree on wcag and standards...
13:52:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
13:52:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
13:53:11 <fesch> chaals: need to look at a bunch of interactive patterns, speech, eye trackers, head switches....
13:53:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility#Requirements_4
13:54:01 <fesch> chaals: need feedback loop - different ways we need feedback will be quite important
13:55:14 <fesch> sss
13:55:15 <chaals> scribe: chaals
13:55:45 <chaals> RS: Think we have plenty to do for now.
13:55:49 <chaals> q+
13:56:04 <LJWatson> ack me
13:56:04 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to say another reason for making interaction efficient is that it eases the cognitive load.
13:56:06 <chaals> RS: Won't be here in 2 weeks time
13:56:10 <chaals> FE: Nor I
14:00:03 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/20-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
14:00:25 <chaals> FE: SHould I do a demo of RAID?
14:00:28 <chaals> RS: Next week?
14:00:31 <chaals> FE: Sure.
14:00:45 <chaals> [+1 to a demo next week]
14:01:46 <Zakim> -chaals
14:01:47 <Zakim> -LJWatson
14:01:50 <Zakim> -fesch
14:01:52 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:01:58 <Zakim> -Jason_White
14:01:59 <Zakim> WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM has ended
14:01:59 <Zakim> Attendees were fesch, Jason_White, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, LJWatson, [IPcaller], chaals
14:02:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
14:07:05 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:07:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/20-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
14:33:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
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