14:41:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:41:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-mobile-a11y-irc
14:41:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:41:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:41:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:41:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 19 minutes
14:41:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:41:53 <trackbot> Date: 19 March 2015
14:42:12 <Kim> chair: Kimberly_Patch
14:42:43 <Kim> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Mar/0011.html
14:44:15 <Kim> Agenda+ Answer comments on Note
14:44:17 <Kim> Agenda+ New work on input methods
14:44:18 <Kim> Agenda+ Next Steps - next meeting will be Thursday, March 26
14:46:34 <Kim> Regrets+  David_McDonald
14:58:19 <Kim> Regrets+  Alan
15:00:21 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:50 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:55 <Jan> Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:58 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
15:00:58 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:03 <Zakim> +??P0
15:01:22 <Zakim> +TomB
15:01:52 <Zakim> +jon_avila
15:02:07 <Mike_Pluke> zakim, ??P0 is me
15:02:07 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
15:02:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:33 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is Jan
15:02:33 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
15:03:19 <Kim> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Comments_on_Mobile_Accessibility_Note_20150226
15:04:03 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:04:25 <Kim> 	http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Comments_on_Mobile_Accessibility_Note_20150226
15:05:15 <tbabinszki> tbabinszki has joined #mobile-a11y
15:05:24 <Kim> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/actions/24
15:06:19 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:07:09 <Jan> https://github.com/w3c/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/issues
15:07:16 <jon_avila> yes
15:08:36 <Kim> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/
15:10:00 <jon_avila> Fine with me.
15:10:23 <jon_avila> I can
15:10:32 <jon_avila> scribe: jon_avila
15:11:20 <jon_avila> ACTION: Change ""mobile" screen size" to "various screen size"
15:11:20 <trackbot> Error finding 'Change'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:12:59 <jon_avila> ACTION: Change point 1.1 ""mobile" screen size" to "various screen sizes" on Jeanne Spellman
15:12:59 <trackbot> Error finding 'Change'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:13:41 <jon_avila> ACTION Jeanne Spellman: change point 1.1 ""mobile" screen size" to "various screen sizes"
15:13:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Spellman: change point 1.1 ""mobile" screen size" to "various screen sizes" [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-03-26].
15:14:14 <jon_avila> kp: next one small screen sizes 2.1
15:15:05 <jon_avila> jan: This is basically mobile first which we discussed a reword a few weeks ago
15:15:24 <jon_avila> kp: 3.3. and 3.2 were the changes from last time
15:16:27 <jon_avila> Yes, we did change 2.1
15:17:31 <jon_avila> kp: was EO comments on 2.1
15:18:18 <Zakim> +Jeanne
15:18:43 <jon_avila> kp: Skip this comment for 2.1 because it was already addressed
15:18:48 <Jan> Mobile first discussion and actions: http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
15:19:33 <jon_avila> kp: Add a bullet or note to 3.3 to make keyboard equivalents explicit
15:21:19 <jon_avila> jan: agree with him.  Had added that note in what was sent to the group.
15:21:27 <Jan> JR: Note I proposed: Note: While improving the accessibility of touchscreen gestures is important, keyboard accessibility is still required by some users and to meet WCAG 2.0 (see “3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices”).
15:22:23 <jon_avila> kp: thoughts on Jan's proposed note versus other comment.
15:22:53 <jon_avila> mike: need for note for sure -- may want to mention spcific success criteria.  Perhaps mention SC 2.1.1
15:23:21 <jon_avila> jan: Thought might be better to refer to other section might be better.
15:23:35 <jon_avila> mike: Ok with referring back to section in this document.
15:23:51 <jon_avila> kp: other thoughts?  Hearing none - go with Jan's.
15:24:12 <slee> slee has joined #mobile-a11y
15:24:36 <jon_avila> mike: should we drop "by some users"?
15:25:04 <jon_avila> jan: the need is for some users and there is still the requirement
15:25:23 <jon_avila> mike: misread the "and" -- so it's fine -- missed the and. Looks good.
15:26:08 <jon_avila> kp: put note in -- do we need an action jeanne?
15:27:07 <jon_avila> ACTION jeanne spellman: Implement Jan's note Note I proposed: Note: While improving the accessibility of touchscreen gestures is important, keyboard accessibility is still required by some users and to meet WCAG 2.0 (see “3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices”).
15:27:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Spellman: implement jan's note note i proposed: note: while improving the accessibility of touchscreen gestures is important, keyboard accessibility is still required by some users and to meet wcag 2.0 (see “3.1 keyboard control for touchscreen devices”). [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-03-26].
15:28:08 <jon_avila> kp: 3.4. change a should to required for keyboard access.
15:28:58 <jon_avila> kp: say that developer still need to provide keyboard ... options.
15:28:59 <jon_avila> +1
15:29:25 <jon_avila> jan: ok with changing should to must -- also add an internal document reference.
15:29:35 <Jan> Therefore, even when device manipulation gestures are provided, developers must still provide touch and keyboard operable alternative control options (see “3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices”).
15:29:43 <Jan> Another issue with control via device manipulation gestures is that they might lack onscreen indicators that remind people how and when to use them. See “4.6 Provide instructions for custom touchscreen and device manipulation gestures”.
15:31:56 <jon_avila> mike: prefer this wording from jan over commenters as it avoids the words conforming to WCAG
15:32:20 <jon_avila> Jeanne: like need better than must
15:32:53 <jon_avila> jeanne: withdraw comments on need and must.
15:33:39 <jon_avila> mike: developers still need to provide.... combine jan's with the need instead of must.
15:33:40 <jon_avila> +1 to mike
15:33:57 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:34:01 <marcjohlic> +1 need to
15:34:32 <jon_avila> jeanne: because we are note we should use "need to"
15:34:46 <jon_avila> kp: Use Jan's wording with but change "must" to "need to"
15:35:13 <Kim> Therefore, even when device manipulation gestures are provided, developers still need to provide touch and keyboard operable alternative control options (see “3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices”).
15:35:15 <Kim> Another issue with control via device manipulation gestures is that they might lack onscreen indicators that remind people how and when to use them. See “4.6 Provide instructions for custom touchscreen and device manipulation gestures”.
15:35:58 <jon_avila> mikeS: ok to keep in coformance.
15:36:37 <tbabinszki> tbabinszki has joined #mobile-a11y
15:36:55 <Kim> Therefore, even when device manipulation gestures are provided, in order to conform to WCAG, developers still need to provide touch and keyboard operable alternative control options (see “3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices”).
15:37:09 <jon_avila> mikeP: In EU standard we created a set of software unique requirements that were different from the WCAG ones with updated language for software.
15:37:28 <jon_avila> jan: we don't use conform other places
15:37:43 <jon_avila> +1
15:37:47 <jon_avila> keep it out
15:38:02 <Kim> 	Another issue with control via device manipulation gestures is that they might lack onscreen indicators that remind people how and when to use them. See “4.6 Provide instructions for custom touchscreen and device manipulation gestures”.
15:38:33 <jon_avila> kp: any objectives to both of the paragraphs from Jan.
15:38:34 <Kim> Another issue with control via device manipulation gestures is that they might lack onscreen indicators that remind people how and when to use them. See “4.6 Provide instructions for custom touchscreen and device manipulation gestures”.
15:39:12 <jon_avila> ACTION Seanne Spellman to make Jan's changes above in 3.4.
15:39:12 <trackbot> Error finding 'Seanne'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:39:20 <jon_avila> ACTION Seanne Spellman: to make Jan's changes above in 3.4.
15:39:20 <trackbot> Error finding 'Seanne'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/track/users>.
15:39:34 <jon_avila> ACTION Jeanne Spellman: to make Jan's changes above in 3.4.
15:39:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Spellman: to make jan's changes above in 3.4. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-03-26].
15:39:43 <Kim> Therefore, even when device manipulation gestures are provided, developers still need to provide touch and keyboard operable alternative control options (see “3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices”).
15:40:41 <jon_avila> kp: Can switch tasks for second half and then switch to new stuff?
15:41:31 <jon_avila> kp: Section 4.2 consistentcy in WCAG.
15:42:26 <jon_avila> kp: commenter said that layout wasn't covered by SC 3.2.3 or 3.2.4
15:43:53 <Zakim> +MikeS
15:43:58 <jon_avila> mikeP: Discussed this in taskforce.  Had to introduce a set of software for 3.2.3.  EU don't have equivalents to 3.2.3 and 3.2.4.
15:44:49 <jon_avila> MikeP: can't apply as written to software with this particular meaning.  It was thoroughly covered in WCAG to ICT.
15:45:09 <jon_avila> mikeP: can't apply they are directly relevant. Meaning of consistency is different.
15:45:41 <jon_avila> jeanne: is this a case to write new guidance rather than relying on WCAG.
15:49:43 <Kim> 4.2 Components that are repeated across multiple pages should be presented in a consistent layout. In responsive web design, where components are arranged based on device size and screen orientation, web pages within a particular view (set size and orientation) should be consistent in placement of repeated components and navigational components. Consistency between the different screen sizes...
15:49:44 <Kim> ...and screen orientations is not a requirement under WCAG 2.0.
15:51:10 <jon_avila> jan: current document says SC most related to are -- perhaps we could move around this statement to make it more coherent.
15:51:25 <Jan> Consistency between the different screen sizes and screen orientations is not a requirement under WCAG 2.0. The WCAG 2.0 success criteria that are most related to the issue of consistency are:
15:52:20 <jon_avila> mikeS: the word predictable may be better than the word consistent.
15:53:25 <jon_avila> mikeP: would be good guidance for now because we aren't in the stage of conformance with this document.  Predictable isn't testable -- but for this note it's fine.
15:53:46 <Zakim> -TomB
15:57:01 <Mike_Pluke> +1
15:57:12 <jon_avila> kp: is there anything needed beyond the move?
15:57:22 <jon_avila> KP; any objections to the move?
15:57:25 <jon_avila> kp: no objections
15:57:33 <Henny> Henny has joined #mobile-a11y
15:58:04 <jon_avila> ACTION Jeanne Spellman: to make move put in Jan above for 4.2
15:58:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Spellman: to make move put in jan above for 4.2 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-03-26].
15:58:39 <jon_avila> jeanne: resent minutes from F2F meeting so we discussed the items that we talked about.
15:59:28 <jon_avila> jeanne: having meeting to discuss WAI 2020 guidelines.  One thing that came out of it -- support from people who were there - supporting doing extensions to WCAG. This would keep WCAG stable for the near term future.
16:00:05 <jon_avila> jeanne: this would allow us to address evolving technologies and address areas for cognitive and low vision and concepts like the web of things and TV
16:00:23 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
16:00:35 <jon_avila> jeanne: This isn't final so we aren't putting normative language in our document yet.  But we should think about writing this document in a way that we could change this over to be normative document.
16:01:06 <jon_avila> jeanne: The idea is that we could do small documents and in future maybe authorized to convert these into normative documents.
16:02:01 <jon_avila> kp: Did detlev join?  Some people got caught in daylight saving trap.
16:02:12 <jon_avila> kp: See you next week.  We will go with new SC discussion.  Thanks
16:02:14 <Zakim> -Jeanne
16:02:16 <Zakim> -MikeS
16:02:17 <jon_avila> zakim, list attendees
16:02:17 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kim_Patch, TomB, jon_avila, Mike_Pluke, Jan, Marc_Johlic, Jeanne, MikeS
16:02:18 <Detlev> problems dialling in...
16:02:20 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
16:02:20 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:02:21 <Zakim> -Jan
16:02:27 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:02:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
16:02:36 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:02:47 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
16:02:48 <Zakim> -jon_avila
16:02:50 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
16:02:50 <Zakim> Attendees were Kim_Patch, TomB, jon_avila, Mike_Pluke, Jan, Marc_Johlic, Jeanne, MikeS
16:03:50 <Detlev> getting "this passcode is not valid" when using the code supplied in the invitation...
16:04:32 <Kim> Hi Detlev – meeting just ended  –  we're still in the daylight savings time mismatch
16:04:47 <Detlev> Arghhh!!!
16:05:00 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jon_avila
16:05:18 <Kim> You should be getting the minutes by email in a few minutes
16:07:17 <jon_avila> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:09:25 <jon_avila> zakim, bye
16:09:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mobile-a11y
17:03:33 <Jan> Jan has left #mobile-a11y
17:50:52 <slee> slee has joined #mobile-a11y