14:24:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #csvw
14:24:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-csvw-irc
14:24:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:24:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #csvw
14:24:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be CSVW
14:24:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_CSVWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
14:24:13 <trackbot> Meeting: CSV on the Web Working Group Teleconference
14:24:13 <trackbot> Date: 18 March 2015
14:46:51 <ivan> ivan has joined #csvw
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15:00:08 <danbri1> hi
15:00:12 <danbri1> with you in 2-3 mins
15:00:25 <gkellogg> zakim, code?
15:00:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 2789 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), gkellogg
15:00:42 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
15:01:09 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()11:00AM has now started
15:01:09 <danbri1> back
15:01:15 <Zakim> +??P19
15:01:19 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P19
15:01:19 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
15:01:26 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw
15:02:09 <danbri1> passcode? CSVW?
15:02:16 <danbri1> it's not working for me
15:02:25 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:27 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:02:28 <ivan> 2789
15:02:53 <danbri1> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, Ivan, danbri
15:03:41 <danbri1> waiting a couple mins
15:04:04 <Zakim> +??P40
15:04:12 <jtandy> zakim, ??P40 is me
15:04:13 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
15:04:13 <danbri1> ivan's list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-csv-wg/2015Mar/0026.html
15:05:13 <danbri1> chair: danbri
15:05:26 <gkellogg> scribenick: gkellogg
15:05:43 <ivan> The goal: http://bit.ly/1xdKDrU reduced to zero!
15:05:49 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues?q=is:issue+is:open+-label:%22For+LCCR%22
15:06:11 <ivan> http://bit.ly/1By6wwO
15:06:12 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #csvw
15:06:20 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion%2Fdecision
15:06:31 <gkellogg> ivan: these are issues requiring discussion; there are some other editorial things.
15:06:52 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/366
15:06:59 <danbri1> Notes on table groups? #366
15:07:06 <gkellogg> … This is pretty simple, and gkellogg’s an editor of the doc.
15:07:30 <jtandy> q+
15:07:47 <danbri1> gkellogg: no known reason, but wants jeni's view for #366
15:08:01 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:08:11 <jtandy> q-
15:08:13 <gkellogg> jtandy: I recall from TPAC that we decided to put them just on tables, as a pragmatic issue.
15:09:03 <DavideCeolin> DavideCeolin has joined #csvw
15:09:12 <gkellogg> jenit: I don’t think there’s a reason not to have them on table groups.
15:09:35 <gkellogg> jtandy: Also, note that mapping documents will need to be updated.
15:09:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:09:57 <DavideCeolin> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
15:09:57 <Zakim> +DavideCeolin; got it
15:10:04 <gkellogg> JeniT: lots of TableGroup properties just provide an inheritance structure, so that they become properties of the tables.
15:10:19 <gkellogg> jtandy: sure, but I don’t see notes as being such an inherited property.
15:10:47 <gkellogg> JeniT: additional annotation structures are typically _not_ inherited.
15:10:55 <danbri1> reloading https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion%2Fdecision we're down to 5
15:11:26 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/365
15:11:27 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/365 Need for URL compaction #365
15:12:06 <danbri1> jtandy: for json conversion. during csv into tabular mapping, urls get expanded. when we want them back into json they need to be compacted back again if they're in rdfa initial context, or using rdf type
15:12:08 <gkellogg> jtandy: pointed out by ivan and gkellogg; during mapping of CSV into model URLs are expanded.
15:12:15 <danbri1> gkellogg; yes, things that are in the vocab range need to be recompacted
15:12:23 <danbri1> make them pretty again
15:12:37 <danbri1> compaction is really as simple as finding a prefix that has tht url and substituting
15:13:07 <gkellogg> ivan: the only minor disagrement is on where to put it; I feel that compaction is used for JSON only, but the concept may be useful elsewhere.
15:13:31 <ivan> ivan has joined #csvw
15:13:51 <danbri1> gkellogg: we could do it in the metadata doc, e.g. in appendix, but q is when to stop. Other versions might want to compact urls relative to the document base. Would you put that in there?
15:14:08 <danbri1> q?
15:15:11 <danbri1> gkellogg: example of foaf vs foaf:foo
15:17:33 <danbri1> gkellogg: if you compact something ending ':' would you omit it?
15:17:41 <danbri1> why don't i put it in, see if people object to it as complex
15:18:08 <gkellogg> jtandy: to confirm, we’ll add a section on URL compaction to the appendix to the metadata document on JSON-LD
15:18:46 <gkellogg> … I’ll also need to update the examples for JSON output, because the schema.org MusicEvent listing uses rdf:type.
15:19:34 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion%2Fdecision 4!
15:19:38 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/344
15:19:48 <danbri1> JSON Common properties require removing JSON-LDisms #344
15:19:59 <gkellogg> ivan: I think we’ve agreed to that in email.
15:20:13 <gkellogg> jtandy: I wanted to confirm gregg’s proposal.
15:20:34 <gkellogg> … I can take an action to insert that into the JSON doc.
15:20:38 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/342
15:20:42 <danbri1> Behavior of Table Groups when starting with CSV #342
15:21:05 <JeniT> (what if it’s not a transformation)
15:21:13 <danbri1> gkellogg: q is … if you start the transformation from a csv, and that csv has a metadata doc which then intrudces table group with other tables
15:21:20 <danbri1> … do you end up converting them all?
15:21:28 <danbri1> or just the table associated with the initial csv
15:21:57 <danbri1> part of the reasoning, is that if you wanted them all suggests you'd start with the metadata doc. By starting with a CSV seems to indicate you just want that one.
15:22:12 <danbri1> jenit: let's consider non-transform actions eg. validation
15:22:47 <gkellogg> JeniT: considering the validation requirement, though, my position is that it’s perfectly okay to decide that it has some default that is “I will only pay attenition to, and will suppress the output off …” any other CSV file.
15:23:13 <gkellogg> … The question we should be answering is that if we’re creating a tabular data model, does it include such metadata or not.
15:23:33 <danbri1> +1 to jeni
15:23:50 <danbri1> (what tools actually do seems a more trivial detail, APIs and UI will handle that.)
15:23:52 <gkellogg> … I think it should include the embedded metadata for all referenced CSV files, because people may point to the CSV files from web pages and try to embed graphics.
15:24:19 <gkellogg> … Althought they’re pointing to a single CSV file, the implication is that they’re also interested in referenced tables which you only discover by going to that metadata.
15:24:32 <gkellogg> … When we’ve got a TableGroup, you really need to see it as all CSV files together.
15:25:08 <gkellogg> … It doesn’t necessarily mean that all implementations need to get all the output. In terms of the model, we get maximum flexibility by looking at all the embedded metadata.
15:25:48 <gkellogg> ivan: we have to have a clear statement what a conformant application is doing. My impression is that there are two approaches depending on the application scenario.
15:26:12 <Zakim> -jtandy
15:26:28 <gkellogg> … I don’t know how we’d put that into the spec. We could say that applications must provide the ability to choose if just one CSV file is managed, or all the others as well, but it’s difficult to decide which one.
15:26:39 <Zakim> +??P21
15:26:47 <jtandy> zakim, ??P21 is me
15:26:47 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
15:27:04 <gkellogg> JeniT: we have a “suppressOutput” mechanism, so that the implementation could provide defaults which are automatically set, unless overridden by the user.
15:27:21 <gkellogg> … Our definition about what metadata is retrieved needs to be the more general.
15:27:25 <danbri1> +1
15:27:35 <gkellogg> … I don’t think it’s about different levels of conformance, but just add a note.
15:27:47 <gkellogg> q+
15:27:50 <danbri1> q?
15:28:51 <danbri1> gkellogg: the other metadata that could be retrieved, if we start at a csv, we get its metadata. we can then identify other csv files, and retrieve them to get their embedded metadata i.e. their titles. But we wouldn't go retrieve the other metadata files that might be associated with those CSVs.
15:29:00 <danbri1> So the only other info we'd be getting is the titles, right?
15:29:09 <danbri1> jenit: precisely what i suggest - yes
15:29:21 <danbri1> gkellogg: would we also read the content of those files? or just the metadata?
15:29:33 <danbri1> would the model include all the rows, cols, cells from all the cells in the tablegroup?
15:29:48 <danbri1> jenit: way i see it is that the overall model is that
15:30:02 <gkellogg> JeniT: as I see it, the model is that of a table group with tables, rows, columns, cells etc.
15:30:05 <danbri1> what you end up with is a tablegroup with tables in it, rows, cols, cells, for all the CSVs referenced from the metadata associated from 1st file.
15:30:35 <ivan> q+
15:30:47 <danbri1> ack gkellogg
15:30:48 <gkellogg> … However, if you have an implementation which suppresses the output of those CSV files, then even getting the embedded metadata is not of interest, and you’re not concerned about validation, then there’s no need to get that data.
15:30:54 <ivan> ack gkellogg
15:31:06 <gkellogg> … Conceptually it’s creating a model with all the tables, but practically, there’s not need to fetch that data.
15:31:40 <gkellogg> ivan: can I as a user suppress output for any file expect a specified file.
15:32:17 <gkellogg> JeniT: a metadata document lists all the CSV files, and you are by definition listing all the CSV files.
15:32:49 <gkellogg> … It would be creating an artificial metadata file based on ?
15:34:02 <Zakim> -gkellogg
15:34:10 <Zakim> -jtandy
15:34:14 <danbri1> danbri: any proposal to close #342 ?
15:34:29 <JeniT> I said that the implementation would create an artificial metadata file based on the metadata that it’s retrieved, in which the suppressOutput flag is set on all the other CSV files aside from the one you start with
15:35:01 <danbri1> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:35:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, danbri, JeniT, DavideCeolin
15:35:09 <Zakim> +??P19
15:35:17 <jtandy> zakim, ??P19 is me
15:35:17 <Zakim> +jtandy; got it
15:35:17 <danbri1> Zakim, who is on the call?
15:35:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, danbri, JeniT, DavideCeolin, jtandy
15:35:30 <danbri1> rrsagent, pointer?
15:35:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-csvw-irc#T15-35-30
15:35:48 <Zakim> +gkellogg
15:36:03 <JeniT> PROPOSAL: define that a model is created based on the embedded metadata in CSV files referenced from the metadata file retrieved from the CSV file; however note that implementations can choose to automatically define overriding metadata that suppresses the output from CSV files other than the one the implementation starts with
15:36:14 <Zakim> -JeniT
15:36:37 <danbri1> gkellogg: my concern re letting impl choose things is w.r.t. testing
15:36:44 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:36:49 <danbri1> i dont' think we currently have tests with multiple established table groups
15:37:00 <danbri1> gkellogg: if we have such a test we need to be sure output is consistent
15:37:09 <danbri1> … too much app flexibility can interfere with testing
15:37:20 <danbri1> jtandy: public sector roles/salary example has tablegroup in it
15:37:23 <gkellogg> jtandy: One example we have is roles and salaries...
15:37:47 <danbri1> jenit: suggest that the tests all make the assumption that there is no additional user defined metadata aside from whatever might be provided for the test
15:38:24 <gkellogg> JeniT: have tests that have table groups with tables being suppressed, and one where they’re not suppressed
15:38:39 <danbri1> gkellogg: how woudl we express, you suggest we add an option to control if output is suppressed.
15:38:51 <danbri1> jenit: we have that option in the metadata already in there, suppress output property
15:38:55 <jtandy> (the public sector roles and salaries example has two tables not suppressed and one that it supressed)
15:39:22 <danbri1> gkellogg: if we have a test e.g. publi sector roles/salaries, and input file is the senior roles csv, then a conforming application would output a table group with senior roles, junior roles, adn 3rd table
15:39:25 <danbri1> jenit: yes
15:39:34 <danbri1> gkellogg: i believe we have another example too
15:39:50 <danbri1> resolution then to this, starting w/ a csv file is no diff from starting from the metadata file associated with it
15:39:51 <danbri1> jenit: yes
15:39:52 <jtandy> (the third table in this example is gov.uk/professions.csv ... and this is marked as supporessed)
15:40:25 <danbri1> prop was "define that a model is created based on the embedded metadata in CSV files referenced from the metadata file retrieved from the CSV file; however note that implementations can choose to automatically define overriding metadata that suppresses the output from CSV files other than the one the implementation starts with"
15:40:36 <danbri1> rrsagent, pointer?
15:40:36 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-csvw-irc#T15-40-36
15:40:58 <danbri1> rrsagent, make logs public
15:41:09 <JeniT> PROPOSAL: starting from a CSV file generates the same table model as starting from the metadata file that the CSV file references
15:41:21 <danbri1> +1
15:41:23 <DavideCeolin> +1
15:41:24 <jtandy> +0
15:41:27 <gkellogg> +0.1
15:41:27 <ivan> +1
15:41:32 <JeniT> +1
15:41:52 <ivan> RESOLVED: starting from a CSV file generates the same table model as starting from the metadata file that the CSV file references
15:41:56 <danbri1> 2 left in https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion%2Fdecision
15:42:06 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/306 The table annotations in the csv2* documents? #306
15:42:06 <danbri1> 
15:43:05 <gkellogg> jtandy: when I did the first big edit on the CSV conversion documents, we talked about callouts and examples separate. We also talked about restructuring examples so that example snippets went into the body, and the examples themselves into an annex.
15:43:21 <gkellogg> … do we still want to do that given the short amount of time left?
15:43:22 <ivan> q+
15:43:28 <danbri1> ack ivan
15:43:56 <gkellogg> ivan: the goal of publishing now is to have all technical issues solved. If there are editorial/beautification left till later, that should be okay.
15:44:02 <JeniT> https://rawgit.com/w3c/csvw/hiding-annotation-details/csv2json/index.html#example-countries
15:44:27 <gkellogg> … That being said, before this call, I played with some JavaScript stuff to hide these detailed annotations; have a look at that to see if it’s useful.
15:44:42 <JeniT> +1 to having these buttons to show/hide the detailed model
15:45:20 <danbri1> q?
15:45:30 <gkellogg> ivan: if the default is “show”, it would show up in epub/print.
15:45:46 <gkellogg> … Some epub readers understand these things, some done.
15:46:09 <gkellogg> jtandy: just looking at it now, it does get rid of a lot of tables.
15:46:47 <JeniT> +1 yes please ivan
15:46:50 <gkellogg> ivan: I’ll take care of this tomorrow with a PR.
15:47:04 <danbri1> We should also consider the accessibility aspect. i.e. if you're on a reader, how to skip these verbose tables.
15:47:36 <danbri1> rrsagent, pointer?
15:47:36 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-csvw-irc#T15-47-36
15:47:47 <gkellogg> jtandy: when gkellogg restructure the roles document, I missed the oportunity to put the examples back in. I’ll do that later.
15:47:52 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/175
15:47:58 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/175 Need default metadata #175
15:48:43 <gkellogg> ivan: JeniT asked me to go through and see if all defaults are settled. I believe it is, however, I try to find in the document an answer on what happens if I have a CSV file with one row being the title.
15:49:14 <gkellogg> … The implication that this should be the expanded metadata is there, but it seems to be hidden. This is probably the most likely usage of embedded metadata.
15:49:30 <gkellogg> … I wonder if this should not be considered “standard” embedded metadata, and not just an implementation thing.
15:49:38 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#embedded-metadata
15:49:54 <gkellogg> JeniT: do you think it would work to have a section on embedded metadata to have an example with a very simple example?
15:50:08 <gkellogg> ivan: that would help a lot.
15:50:39 <gkellogg> … My question is, when the CSV file has only one header line whether that should be considered normative or not.
15:50:53 <danbri1> i.e. an empty table?
15:51:43 <jtandy> (the simple example with one header line is at http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2json/#example-countries)
15:51:46 <JeniT> http://w3c.github.io/csvw/syntax/#headers
15:51:48 <gkellogg> … If the dialect says there is one header line, i.e. the simplest dialect, in that case, embedded metadata MUST be used as column titles.
15:52:17 <gkellogg> JeniT: 6.4.1 says that it should contain the names of columns.
15:53:00 <gkellogg> ivan: that’s informative, not normative.
15:53:23 <danbri1> proposal: it's fine. close the issue. celebrate and publish.
15:53:23 <gkellogg> JeniT: we’d need to change the charter to do something normative around CSV files.
15:53:43 <Zakim> -JeniT
15:53:52 <danbri1> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:53:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, danbri, DavideCeolin, jtandy, gkellogg
15:54:19 <gkellogg> ivan: JeniT proposed to add an additional example into 4.2, which I agree with.
15:54:35 <danbri1> bye!
15:54:44 <gkellogg> jtandy: the “countries” example used in the converion document is nice and simple.
15:55:43 <jtandy> s/converion/conversion/
15:56:02 <jtandy> see http://w3c.github.io/csvw/csv2json/#example-countries
15:56:22 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues/175
15:56:24 <ivan> "Discussed on 2015.3.18, agreed to add a simple example into the syntax document at section 4.2 showing a table with a single header line"
15:57:01 <jtandy> q+
15:57:03 <danbri1> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion%2Fdecision
15:57:04 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/csvw/labels/Requires%20telcon%20discussion/decision
15:57:08 <danbri1> "Bummer, we couldn't find anything."
15:57:51 <danbri1> ivan: publishing by end of March is probably too tight, but 1st week April is realistic.
15:57:52 <gkellogg> ivan: there are still some editorial things to be done; I think publishing by the end of march will be a bit too tight. But the first week of April is realistic.
15:57:54 <danbri1> Formally these are drafts
15:58:04 <gkellogg> … In any case, it’s just a draft.
15:58:12 <gkellogg> … Not a formal “Last Call”
15:58:55 <jtandy> q-
15:59:05 <gkellogg> … For now the goal is to have the specs out; we will have to show that there is wide review, so they’ll need to go out to specific groups for comment.
15:59:19 <jtandy> q+ to ask if there's appetite to refactor csv2rdf in a similar way to csv2json?
15:59:19 <danbri1> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:59:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, danbri, DavideCeolin, jtandy, gkellogg
15:59:36 <gkellogg> … The hight-priority thing is to have the docs done and published. Also, we need to be more careful about important changes we’ve made.
15:59:53 <danbri1> ack jtandy
15:59:54 <Zakim> jtandy, you wanted to ask if there's appetite to refactor csv2rdf in a similar way to csv2json?
16:00:17 <gkellogg> jtandy: I just want to make the point that the use case document still needs to have requirements elaborated, but that shouldn’t hold up publication.
16:00:37 <gkellogg> … We’ve refactored csv2json; who’d have thought that the rdf implementation would be simplier!
16:00:46 <jtandy> :-)
16:01:12 <gkellogg> ivan: it’s strange but true that in the RDF case, generation is relatively simple. The point is that the complicated stuff for RDF is done by that environment.
16:01:29 <gkellogg> … serializing to Turtle needs to go through the algorithim similar to what’s in the JSON document.
16:01:56 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:01:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-csvw-minutes.html ivan
16:01:59 <Zakim> -DavideCeolin
16:01:59 <jtandy> bye
16:02:01 <Zakim> -danbri
16:02:03 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:02:04 <Zakim> -jtandy
16:02:04 <Zakim> -gkellogg
16:02:05 <Zakim> DATA_CSVWG()11:00AM has ended
16:02:05 <Zakim> Attendees were gkellogg, Ivan, danbri, jtandy, JeniT, DavideCeolin
16:04:02 <jtandy> jtandy has joined #csvw