12:57:47 RRSAgent has joined #dwbp 12:57:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/13-dwbp-irc 12:57:49 RRSAgent, make logs 351 12:57:49 Zakim has joined #dwbp 12:57:51 Zakim, this will be DWBP 12:57:51 ok, trackbot; I see DATA_DWBP()9:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 12:57:52 Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 12:57:52 Date: 13 March 2015 12:59:09 DATA_DWBP()9:00AM has now started 12:59:16 +[IPcaller] 12:59:17 zakim, [ is me 12:59:17 +phila; got it 12:59:27 phila has changed the topic to: agenda https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20150313 12:59:37 +[IPcaller] 12:59:50 zakim, ipcaller is me 12:59:50 +deirdrelee; got it 13:00:18 MTCarrasco has joined #dwbp 13:00:23 +??P15 13:00:43 zakim, ??P15 is me 13:00:43 +MTCarrasco; got it 13:00:48 annette_g has joined #dwbp 13:00:58 zakim, mute me 13:00:58 MTCarrasco should now be muted 13:01:01 + +1.617.646.aaaa 13:01:42 +annette_g 13:02:01 laufer has joined #dwbp 13:02:16 zakim, who is here? 13:02:16 On the phone I see phila, deirdrelee, MTCarrasco (muted), +1.617.646.aaaa, annette_g 13:02:19 On IRC I see laufer, annette_g, MTCarrasco, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, yaso, phila, hadleybeeman, rhiaro, trackbot 13:02:32 newton has joined #dwbp 13:02:33 SumitPurohit has joined #DWBP 13:02:37 BernadetteLoscio has joined #dwbp 13:02:37 zakim, aaaa is SumitPurohit 13:02:37 +SumitPurohit; got it 13:03:06 zakim, umnute me 13:03:06 I don't understand 'umnute me', MTCarrasco 13:03:28 scribe: annette_g 13:03:43 +Reinaldo 13:03:55 Zakim, Reinaldo is yaso 13:03:55 +yaso; got it 13:04:06 Caroline_ has joined #DWBP 13:04:11 Zakim, yaso has newton, Caroline_ 13:04:11 +newton, Caroline_; got it 13:04:17 adler1 has joined #DWBP 13:04:18 zakim, unmute me 13:04:18 MTCarrasco should no longer be muted 13:04:24 zakim, who is here? 13:04:24 On the phone I see phila, deirdrelee, MTCarrasco, SumitPurohit, annette_g, yaso 13:04:27 yaso has newton, Caroline_ 13:04:27 On IRC I see adler1, Caroline_, BernadetteLoscio, SumitPurohit, newton, laufer, annette_g, MTCarrasco, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, yaso, phila, hadleybeeman, rhiaro, trackbot 13:04:27 yaso1 has joined #dwbp 13:04:36 Zakim, Reinaldo is yaso 13:04:36 sorry, yaso1, I do not recognize a party named 'Reinaldo' 13:04:55 + +1.516.944.aabb 13:05:00 Zakim, yaso1 is yaso 13:05:00 sorry, newton, I do not recognize a party named 'yaso1' 13:05:05 zakim, aabb is me 13:05:05 +adler1; got it 13:05:06 +[IPcaller] 13:05:10 zakim, ipcaller is BernadetteLoscio 13:05:10 +BernadetteLoscio; got it 13:05:14 MTCarrasco: we should always plan the date according to UCT 13:05:25 zakim, mute BernadetteLoscio 13:05:25 BernadetteLoscio should now be muted 13:05:32 deirdrelee: our system uses EST 13:05:41 q+ about time difference 13:05:48 zakim, who is here? 13:05:48 On the phone I see phila, deirdrelee, MTCarrasco, SumitPurohit, annette_g, yaso, adler1, BernadetteLoscio (muted) 13:05:51 yaso has newton, Caroline_ 13:05:51 On IRC I see yaso1, adler1, Caroline_, BernadetteLoscio, SumitPurohit, newton, laufer, annette_g, MTCarrasco, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, yaso, phila, hadleybeeman, rhiaro, 13:05:51 ... trackbot 13:05:56 phila: we can do it either way, but there is always some confusion 13:05:57 +[IPcaller] 13:06:01 zakim, mute me 13:06:01 MTCarrasco should now be muted 13:06:14 zakim, mute me 13:06:14 sorry, laufer, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 13:06:20 PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-03-06 13:06:28 +1 13:06:28 zakim, IPcaller is me 13:06:28 +laufer; got it 13:06:35 +1 13:06:37 zakim, mute me 13:06:37 laufer should now be muted 13:06:38 +1 13:06:40 +1 13:06:42 +1 13:06:44 +1 13:06:45 +1 13:06:52 +1 13:06:55 zakim, who is noisy? 13:06:58 0 (was not here) 13:07:06 phila, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: deirdrelee (95%), yaso (9%) 13:07:14 RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes 13:07:32 q+ 13:07:35 q- 13:07:50 if we keep USA time is easier because Zakim is attached to it. So we may consider the diferent timezones based on USA 13:07:51 deirdrelee: should we switch the system to use UTC? 13:07:56 q? 13:08:06 agree! 13:08:24 yes, ET is best :) 13:08:25 Caroline: we should only consider Zakim time, EST 13:08:31 q+ 13:09:00 it is New York time 13:09:05 Boston is a minor city 13:09:12 Suggestion: consider Boston time, even when is changes to Winter or Summer time! :) 13:09:17 Annette: Zakim is EDT 13:09:20 we have more Irish in NY 13:09:28 phila: let's just call it Boston time (Cambridge time) 13:09:39 +1 to phila 13:09:57 +1 13:10:09 +1 as it is easier Boston time 13:10:17 zakim, unmute BernadetteLoscio 13:10:17 BernadetteLoscio should no longer be muted 13:10:19 deirdrelee: we need to get back to issues. First half hour is dedicated to Best Practies. 13:10:42 zakim, mute me 13:10:42 MTCarrasco was already muted, MTCarrasco 13:11:06 BernadetteLoscio: was talking with Newton about issues. They selected most important issues for metadata 13:11:35 BernadetteLoscio: they changed some numbers of issues. 13:12:08 BernadetteLoscio: looking at notes from Chritophe, Annette, Don ?? 13:12:18 q+ 13:12:18 s/Dan ??/Dan Brickley 13:12:29 ack me 13:13:04 BernadetteLoscio: we need to discuss the organization of the BPs 13:13:20 q? 13:14:09 ack me 13:14:25 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2015Mar/0031.html 13:14:37 https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/68239/BP%20Doc%20FPWD/ 13:14:43 ericstephan has joined #dwbp 13:14:46 phila: we have a new tool, comment tracker, tracks comments we receive (links above) 13:15:06 Sorry joining late, just got back in from a workshop at 1am this morning... 13:15:23 phila: at bottom of page, there are places for us to put notes, resolutions 13:15:43 no worries Eric, welcome! 13:15:49 who is authorized to change status? 13:16:07 what happens if three different people change status 13:16:13 phila: we can resolve yes/no/partial, put in pointer to resolution (point to minutes of the meeting) 13:16:15 q+ 13:16:40 ack BernadetteLoscio 13:17:15 BernadetteLoscio: Christophe sent a list of comments, which will have more than one resolution 13:17:43 phila: at the bottom, there's a link to add a comment. YOu can copy/paste a particular paragraph or the whole message 13:17:54 you can use the separate comment approach 13:17:57 q+ 13:18:00 +estephan 13:18:32 BernadetteLoscio: definition of metadata is an issue resolved by mail 13:19:02 phila: we do need to record that we resolved something, can be quick mention in a meeting 13:19:26 BernadetteLoscio: I think we can do this 13:19:45 phila: editors need to decisde who puts comments into the tracker each time 13:19:58 ack adler1 13:19:59 s/decisde/decide 13:20:04 ack adler 13:20:18 adler1: do we add comemnts ourselves? 13:20:34 https://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/68239/ 13:21:17 phila: you can go straight there and click the comments link. It's only for comments made by email. 13:21:46 The first issue related to the BP1 is http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/142 13:22:14 issue-142? 13:22:14 issue-142 -- About multilingualism -- open 13:22:14 http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/142 13:22:36 newton: Max raised this issue 13:22:43 s/Max/Makx 13:22:46 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2015Jan/0240.html Makx's comments 13:23:08 adler1: is the issue that metadata's always in English? 13:23:37 q+ 13:23:49 deirdrelee: we want to make sure everyone is happy with each bP 13:24:48 q? 13:24:51 BernadetteLoscio: it's important that we are happy with the organization and each of the three BPs. Others are specializations of these ones. 13:25:03 ack adler 13:25:10 q+ 13:25:14 adler1: excellent topic. 13:25:46 are we going to allow people in Brazil to write metadata in Portuguese, Germans in German? 13:25:58 zakim, unmute me 13:25:58 MTCarrasco should no longer be muted 13:26:01 q+ 13:26:02 phila: suggests use native language, add English if possible 13:26:03 q= 13:26:50 BernadetteLoscio: I think we're talking about different things. Docuemnt metadata means to provide metadat. It should be provided in more than one language. If we use standard terms, they should be in English. 13:26:52 q+ 13:26:58 q- 13:27:32 q+ to talk about multilingual schemata 13:27:48 AdrianoC has joined #dwbp 13:27:58 adler1: agrees that those are the issues. Do we need to write a BP that normalizes multilingual metadata so that it can be understood by machines and humans. In the future, we might have things conforming but that might not be apparent to machines. 13:27:59 q? 13:27:59 q? 13:28:16 BernadetteLoscio: But we're talking about standard vocabularies, no? 13:28:34 adler1: you have the standard terms but also the values 13:28:54 ack MTCarrasco 13:29:19 MTCarrasco: three items: name of element (must be the same in all languages), content of the element. 13:30:02 With content you have some that are not language dependent and some, like descriptions, that are 13:30:26 well said 13:30:28 zakim, unmute me 13:30:28 laufer should no longer be muted 13:30:33 ack laufer 13:30:53 q+ 13:30:57 q+ 13:31:44 laufer: each publisher will choose the language for the content that they think is suitable, but vocabularies are defined in the language of the vocab writers. We can recommend, but we can't be overly assertive about this. 13:31:55 zakim, mute me 13:31:55 laufer should now be muted 13:31:56 ack laufer 13:31:59 ack phila 13:32:00 phila, you wanted to talk about multilingual schemata 13:32:00 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/#vocabulary-checklist LD-BP 13:32:00 phila: agrees with laufer 13:32:20 -> http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat.ttl DCAT namespace 13:32:38 phila: the linked data BPs has something to say about this. DCAT is in multiple languages now. 13:32:58 phila: whataver you use, it's the same vocab 13:33:00 nice 13:33:02 +??P32 13:33:12 zakim, who is noisy? 13:33:15 I cannot hear 13:33:19 Zakim, mute adler1 13:33:19 adler1 should now be muted 13:33:24 Zakim, mute AdrianoC 13:33:25 phila, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: deirdrelee (31%), MTCarrasco (4%), laufer (8%) 13:33:25 sorry, Caroline_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to AdrianoC 13:33:26 Zakim, ??P32 is AdrianoC 13:33:28 +AdrianoC; got it 13:33:29 I am muted on my phone 13:33:33 zakim, mute laufer 13:33:33 laufer should now be muted 13:33:33 Zakim, mute +??P32 13:33:34 sorry, newton, I do not know which phone connection belongs to +??P32 13:33:36 hey P32!!! 13:33:42 Zakim, unmute adler1 13:33:42 adler1 should no longer be muted 13:33:43 zakim, mute MTCarrasco 13:33:43 MTCarrasco should now be muted 13:33:44 Zakim, mute AdrianoC 13:33:44 AdrianoC should now be muted 13:33:49 zakim, unmute laufer 13:33:49 laufer should no longer be muted 13:33:56 ack deirdrelee 13:34:03 zakim, unmute me 13:34:03 MTCarrasco should no longer be muted 13:34:12 +q 13:34:15 Sorry, I am in a crowd place and my mic was on! :-} 13:34:31 deirdrelee: I agres with what previous people said, we should include it in the BP doc. We have a pretty concrete approach. 13:34:34 q? 13:34:35 * resolution? 13:35:08 ack MTCarrasco 13:35:29 MTCarrasco: we should have a language neutral code. 13:35:29 -deirdrelee 13:36:12 MTCarrasco: when people publish, they must follow certain rules. It depends on who they are publishing to. 13:36:29 Hmmm... http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat#Catalog is the code. The labels are "Catalog"@en, "Catálogo"@es, "Κατάλογος"@el, "カタログ"@ja; 13:36:41 I think deirdrelee is not on the phone 13:36:42 I think this is an issue thta is now particular to the web 13:37:12 phila: does that cover what you want with a code? 13:37:16 "Una colección conservada de metadatos de conjuntos de datos"@es; 13:37:20 he means the content that the definition describes 13:37:24 "A curated collection of metadata about datasets"@en; 13:37:41 http://www.w3.org/ns/dcat#Catalog 13:37:45 MTCarrasco: there should be a sentence there 13:37:59 ah, yes, excellent 13:38:24 phila: the label is any number of names that you call the element 13:38:38 title=t123 13:38:39 deirdrelee_ has joined #dwbp 13:38:41 but the code is the same no matter which language you use 13:38:53 +[IPcaller] 13:39:02 zakim, ipcaller is me 13:39:02 +deirdrelee_; got it 13:39:04 you have the same uri that define the property... and they have labels... 13:39:06 q? 13:39:19 phila: can also be done in XML 13:39:49 we should say that you should use multilingual labels 13:40:19 q? 13:41:09 BernadetteLoscio: I agree that we should talk about this in the BP 13:41:31 q+ 13:41:38 ack BernadetteLoscio 13:41:45 but this is something for the vocabularies BP 13:42:09 q- 13:42:10 yes 13:42:39 PROPOSED: That we include a Best Practice to cover multingualism 13:42:46 BernadetteLoscio: we can propose something for how to incorporate this into the BPs 13:42:47 +1 13:42:56 We have to address the multilingual metadata aspects - either inside the doc or new one 13:42:58 0 13:43:00 +1 to BernadetteLoscio 13:43:01 +1 13:43:04 +1 13:43:06 +1 13:43:07 +1 13:43:23 +1 13:43:32 I agree with bernadette that could be a comment... 13:43:43 +1 13:43:49 +1 13:43:53 PROPOSED: That we include multingualism in the Best Practice document 13:43:59 +1 13:44:01 +1 13:44:02 +1 13:44:04 +1 13:44:07 +1 13:44:10 +1 13:44:10 +1 13:44:13 RESOLVED: That we include multingualism in the Best Practice document 13:44:15 +1 13:44:17 +1 13:44:26 phila: 13:44:29 close issue-142 13:44:29 Closed issue-142. 13:45:15 action: bernadette to work with Newton and Carol to include multilingualism in the best practice document as per resolution of Issue-142 13:45:16 deirdrelee_: seems like we should spend the whole meeting on the BP doc 13:45:17 Created ACTION-144 - Work with newton and carol to include multilingualism in the best practice document as per resolution of issue-142 [on Bernadette Farias Loscio - due 2015-03-20]. 13:45:28 http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/76 13:45:47 We could talk about the Issue-76 13:45:52 issue-76? 13:45:52 issue-76 -- What advice do we give about publishing metadata so that we identify the intended outcome without making assumptions that maybe false? -- open 13:45:52 http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/76 13:45:53 q? 13:46:07 BernadetteLoscio: next issue was raised during the F2F by Hadley 13:46:17 I don't understand it very well 13:46:41 phila: hard to know without Hadley here 13:47:06 BernadetteLoscio: next one is 136, about organization of BPs for metadata, proposed by Carlos 13:47:27 about the initial version 13:47:35 The doc has changed since then 13:47:51 http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/136 13:48:11 agree 13:48:13 too general 13:48:25 issue-136? 13:48:25 BernadetteLoscio: saying that metadata should be provided is too general 13:48:25 issue-136 -- Proposal for Metadata BP -- open 13:48:25 http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/136 13:48:42 I think BP1 + BP2 say that 13:48:50 MTCarrasco: I'm happy with it 13:49:19 should we insist on vocabulary specific metadata? 13:49:39 BernadetteLoscio: how can we provide an implementation for this? 13:49:46 q+ 13:49:49 how are we going to test this? 13:50:20 there are also other BPs that assume metadata is provided 13:50:51 MTCarrasco: they should not be two different metadata sets, just one that is both human and machien readable 13:50:59 s/machein/machine 13:51:10 http://dragoman.org/hmformat.html 13:51:26 BernadetteLoscio: we shouldn't have a BP that can't be tested 13:51:53 adler1: I think BernadetteLoscio and MTCarrasco are both correct, but it's a question of how much documentation you provide 13:52:46 adler1: just did some work trying to solve this stuff for two countries in Africa. He realized you just don't find consistent metadat. It's up to us to provide guidance. 13:52:57 q+ to talk about the inevitable 13:52:59 +1 13:53:09 Implementation guidence +1 13:53:10 adler1: we have to go beyond what we have so far and provide implementation guidance 13:53:11 q? 13:53:16 ack adler1 13:53:21 q+ 13:53:23 phli 13:53:24 In medicine http://www.ich.org 13:53:26 ack adler 13:53:32 phila: Steve's point is right. 13:53:49 I think the work that phil pointed can guide this idea of describing a dataset... 13:54:05 people want us to tell them exactly what to do. We're afraid that they'll run away if we tell them something too demanding 13:54:12 lol 13:54:12 q+ 13:54:19 ack phila 13:54:19 phila, you wanted to talk about the inevitable 13:54:21 phila: you can't just say "grow up" 13:54:43 Comply or Explain 13:54:47 maybe there's a continuum between being too proscriptive and being too lenient. 13:54:54 Best Pracice: make metadata available, for example here is how one group did it... 13:54:59 we can have examples of doing the things like: http://htmlpreview.github.io/?https://github.com/joejimbo/HCLSDatasetDescriptions/blob/master/Overview.html 13:55:00 comply or explain is often used in government 13:55:01 q? 13:55:05 q+ 13:55:33 If you can make the case for using something else, you can do that, but it can't just be "I don't like it" 13:55:39 examples +1 13:55:40 Best Practices either suggest them what to do for enticements, or "kick the can down the road" (figure it out on your own) 13:55:43 adler1: we could just provide examples, guidance 13:55:45 q+ 13:56:14 deirdrelee_: Steve just led up to my comment perfectly 13:56:32 people are looking for specifics, the how 13:56:56 Maybe we have to define a virtual example that will illustrate our BPs... 13:57:03 we can start off by saying that they should use metadata, the next BP gets to the next level 13:57:30 +1 13:57:31 we can recommend guildelines, like the European Commission does 13:57:54 +q 13:58:08 If people say they already have their own, we can give them the mappings 13:58:19 to help them use the recommended approach 13:58:25 q? 13:58:38 ack deirdrelee_ 13:58:42 zakim, close queue 13:58:43 ok, phila, the speaker queue is closed 13:58:44 ack MTCarrasco 13:58:49 MTCarrasco: we must give several concrete, detailed examples 13:58:54 not just abstract ones 13:59:10 give example terminology 13:59:37 what is acceptable, what is mandatory 13:59:48 remember, our goal is to influence and change behavior. Examples are non-binding but they do change expectations of behavior 13:59:58 ack yaso1 14:00:25 yaso1: there is a connection between this and another problem, that we are biased toward LD 14:00:37 q? 14:00:41 ack yaso 14:01:14 jerdeb has joined #DWBP 14:01:31 yaso1: maybe we need to agree that we really are working based on LD concepts 14:01:57 ack annette_g 14:02:17 Start levels +1 14:02:26 annette_g: this relates to the question we had with using stars. 14:02:55 ... agree with phila, we do need to get tough, we need to encourage people to use the best practices 14:03:28 BernadetteLoscio: yes, we can have different approaches, not just saying this is the only one 14:03:52 deirdrelee_: we can do that in the context of all our BPs 14:04:08 a lot of these questions are existential for us 14:04:17 sounds like people agree with that 14:04:17 we have many language options to make recommendations that both prescriptive and descriptive 14:04:35 Starts like the linked data mug 14:04:40 great! 14:04:42 great call 14:04:48 deirdrelee_: let's follow up on email 14:04:51