14:07:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
14:07:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/09-dpub-irc
14:07:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:07:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
14:07:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:07:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 53 minutes
14:07:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:07:40 <trackbot> Date: 09 March 2015
14:08:08 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
14:16:03 <ivan> Chair: Markus
14:49:01 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
14:50:00 <mgylling> mgylling has changed the topic to: agenda for 2015-03-09: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Mar/0010.html
14:51:55 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
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14:57:21 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
14:57:28 <Zakim> +Ayla_Stein
14:57:44 <Zakim> +duga
14:57:45 <Zakim> +Tzviya
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14:58:23 <Zakim> +pkra
14:58:29 <pkra> mgylling I have a last-minute conflicting appointment in 30mins. Any chance I could give an update on the STEM TF at the beginning of the call?
14:58:34 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:58:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
14:58:46 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:58:48 <HeatherF> HeatherF has joined #dpub
14:58:51 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
14:59:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:06 <HeatherF> zakim, IPcaller is me
14:59:08 <Zakim> +HeatherF; got it
14:59:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:14 <Zakim> +dauwhe
14:59:17 <NickRuffilo> Zakim, ipcaller is me
14:59:17 <Zakim> +NickRuffilo; got it
14:59:18 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is astearns
14:59:19 <Zakim> +astearns; got it
14:59:42 <Zakim> +dkaplan3
14:59:48 <murakami> murakami has joined #dpub
14:59:50 <NickRuffilo> Zakim, thanks for keeping track of things :: high five ::
14:59:50 <Zakim> I don't understand you, NickRuffilo
15:00:00 <Zakim> +Markus
15:00:01 <NickRuffilo> Someday you will, Zakim, someday you will
15:00:18 <NickRuffilo> scribenick NickRuffilo
15:00:23 <Zakim> +??P14
15:00:31 <ivan> scribenick: NickRuffilo
15:00:33 <HeatherF> *LOL*
15:00:40 <murakami> zakim, ??P14 is me
15:00:40 <Zakim> +murakami; got it
15:01:45 <Julie_Morris> Julie_Morris has joined #dpub
15:01:47 <LFowler> LFowler has joined #dpub
15:01:51 <Zakim> + +1.646.336.aabb
15:01:58 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
15:02:09 <mgylling> pkra, yes sure you go first
15:02:17 <ivan> zakim, aabb is Julie_Morris
15:02:17 <Zakim> +Julie_Morris; got it
15:02:18 <mgylling> Regrets: Timothy Cole, Michael Miller, Bill Kasdorf, Luc Audrain, Liza Daly, Phil Madans, Vladimir Levantovsky
15:02:20 <pkra> mgylling awseome. thx.
15:02:32 <Zakim> +lfowler
15:03:06 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
15:03:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ayla_Stein, duga, Tzviya, pkra, Ivan, astearns, HeatherF, NickRuffilo, dauwhe, dkaplan3, Markus, murakami, Julie_Morris, Karen_Myers, lfowler
15:03:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see LFowler, Julie_Morris, murakami, HeatherF, dauwhe, tzviya, brady_duga, Ayla_Stein, dkaplan3, NickRuffilo, pkra, mgylling, Zakim, RRSAgent, tmichel, ivan, rego_,
15:03:09 <Zakim> ... Karen_, plinss, liam, iank, mihnea_____, astearns, trackbot
15:03:16 <Yves> Yves has joined #dpub
15:03:30 <Zakim> +Yves
15:03:31 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #dpub
15:03:31 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:03:31 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
15:04:16 <Zakim> +david_stroup
15:04:24 <NickRuffilo>  "We have a special guest, Yves.  Peter K will need to leave early for another taskforce."
15:04:39 <NickRuffilo> "We need to approve last weeks minutes.  Comments/?s/Suggestions..."
15:04:50 <NickRuffilo> "Great - minutes are approved"
15:04:57 <Zakim> +pbelfanti
15:05:02 <ivan> Topic: STEM TF update
15:05:09 <NickRuffilo> "One of the TF updates - Peter.  Can you provide a state of affairs?  Comments?"
15:05:21 <pbelfanti> pbelfanti has joined #dpub
15:05:36 <david_stroup> I am 585.217
15:05:38 <NickRuffilo> Peter: "With the STEM taskforce, the 2nd and 3rd round of questionnaires happened last week.  Sent to everyone identified..."
15:05:39 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
15:06:13 <NickRuffilo> ..." gone out to roughly 90 people, should be enough.  Return rate isn't shiny (15?) but I will keep annoying people.  Has a deadline of End of Month.  At the same time, we'll work on actual responses."
15:06:23 <tzviya> survey:
15:06:25 <tzviya>  https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/64149/DPUB-STEM-2014-12/.
15:06:33 <Zakim> + +1.408.979.aacc
15:06:36 <NickRuffilo> ... "Unless people can magically make people answer the survey, suggestions welcome."
15:06:43 <clapierre> Zakim, aacc is me
15:06:43 <Zakim> +clapierre; got it
15:06:46 <tzviya> CHORUS forwarded survey to whole mailing list
15:06:59 <Zakim> + +1.512.445.aadd
15:07:07 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #dpub
15:07:09 <NickRuffilo> ... "There are a few more outstanding as people said they aren't going to answer, but will forward to others in their organization"
15:07:10 <Zakim> - +1.512.445.aadd
15:07:32 <NickRuffilo> ... "Survey is set to close end of the month."
15:08:09 <NickRuffilo> ... "Original batch went out about a month ago.  The 3rd sendout was last week."
15:08:26 <mgylling> q?
15:08:29 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
15:08:32 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
15:08:34 <bjdmeest> zakim, ugent is me
15:08:34 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
15:08:45 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:09:15 <ivan> Topic: packaging
15:10:01 <tzviya> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
15:10:12 <NickRuffilo> Marcus: "Moving on to discussion of packaging - web packaging to be exact.  We have Yves here - invited by Ivan - the primary thing we want to discuss isn't the exact specification, but the primary purpose is to understand where the spec is at, within the web-apps working group - and what the future is.  And how the Pub group can get involved."
15:10:32 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Plus anything that Yves may want to discuss with us.  Maybe - Yves - it would be good to explain your role."
15:11:43 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "I'm mostly working on updating the document and doing face-to-face meetings to get the document ready.  The packaging format started as a way of identifying - with the URL - a way to identify packaging.  It then derailed to some use-case as to why there was a need for a package format or document.  One of the main driver was the need for ?JSP? libraries."
15:12:07 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Using service workers...  It is kind of a portable cache format.  Without the need of a configuration."
15:13:05 <NickRuffilo> ...: "we wanted to actually know if the work we've done will be actually useful to our people.  We started to gather input from other people, and we got some security input, signatures - part of the document from inside the package - and of course it would be good for us as we know this IG would be interested in this type of packaging."
15:13:26 <Zakim> +??P25
15:13:31 <NickRuffilo> ...: "If out approach was good for you, what would we need to make better...  The current point is trying to figure out who would be the perfect customer of the specification."
15:13:44 <tmichel> zakim, ??P25 is me
15:13:44 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
15:14:01 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "So is it safe to say you have no use cases from DPUB?"
15:14:02 <ivan> q+
15:14:13 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "No use-cases from DPUB."
15:15:17 <tzviya> multi-part MIME from digital publishing: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/File:OEBFF_draft.pdf
15:15:24 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Currently many DPUB are using epub, which is based on ZIP.  EPUB considered multi-part MIME, the old (original) spec is still available, if you'd like to look at it.  Was created by/for digital publishing.  Was watered down later.  Certainly historical proof that multi-part MIME has validity for publishing."
15:15:49 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "One question - is it not too late for use cases at this point, or is there a possibility of large changes?"
15:16:22 <brady_duga> q+
15:17:29 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "Certainly not too late.  Some browser vendors are interested, but waiting for things to stabalize before they implement.  Perfectly OK to request things now.  Now is a good time.  Also, when considering multi-part MIME, there was an issue with servers needing to sending out delimiter - there was an issue for one of the use-cases with stringing.  -- being able to process stringable without
15:17:29 <NickRuffilo> requiring all the documents in the first place.  Don't want to know in advance what the perfect delimiter is in advanced."
15:18:04 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:18:13 <mgylling> ack brady_duga
15:18:16 <ivan> q+
15:19:12 <dauwhe> q+
15:19:28 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Re: generating use-cases.  My problem is we have an existing solution - literally millions of epubs, publisher tool-chains, pipelines, huge collection of tools/workflows.  From my perspective, it feels like we should be understanding why we should even consider this.  If it doesn't have significant benefit over existing solution, not sure why it would be considered."
15:19:46 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Existing solution may have flaws, but need to better understand the new package first."
15:19:51 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:20:35 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Are the discussions that lead to using the ZIP format -- archives -- might be of interest to see the arguments against multi-part MIME.  Some of the arguments may be interesting to the working group."
15:21:42 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "We used to have an archive, may not be official.  We might be able to dig it up.  Personally, I think ZIP was not the best decision, and multi-part MIME was the right decision.  I would support multi-part MIME today.  Problem is, we already have a solution, and have invested heavily in it, and not sure it makes sense to throw away all that work."
15:21:51 <HeatherF> q+
15:22:13 <Zakim> -pkra
15:22:32 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "If the decision of the derivative already taken, or can the package be revisited?  Especially if the use-cases for epub/ebooks exists"
15:23:41 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "Zip is an issue when you take streamability into account.  The fact that DPUB gets another format as well as this one is not an issue.  Publishers would have to make a decisions as to what format they would want to use.  Is what we have good enough as a starting point.  If you are using something else that has breadcrumbs that people know well...  "
15:24:31 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "The reason why we are looking at it in the first place, we - in the long term - epub and documents on the web - will be much closer than they are today.  Browsers would implement the packaging format that the web-application working group is proposing.  I doubt browsers are willing to implement both of them."
15:24:55 <NickRuffilo> ?Yves: "Native browsers support for streamability is why we're looking at it.."
15:25:11 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Not sure ZIP isn't streamable.  If you allow for deletions/changes..."
15:25:32 <mgylling> s/?Yves/Markus/
15:25:45 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "Not 100% sure the arguments about ZIP and streamable.  I'll bring it back up with the discussions."
15:26:03 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "There is a need to have a catalog of what's inside..."
15:26:36 <Yves> https://github.com/w3ctag/packaging-on-the-web/issues/14
15:26:44 <tzviya> q+
15:26:48 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Catalog only necessary if there are insertions/deletions.  You should be able to reconstruct (stream the ZIP based on local header.  Could be some other reason, but it seems that ZIP is streamable if you impose restrictions.  Arbitrary ZIP, no.  Additional requirements, yes."
15:27:19 <mgylling> q?
15:27:23 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "Would be good to have a definitive answer about the streamability of ZIP."
15:27:49 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "It's the interest group's job to determine if the ZIP format can be used for streamability and the needs of the package group."
15:28:29 <NickRuffilo> ...: "When you talk about use cases - Yves - it would be good to know how deeply you go.  A number of very high-level use cases exist in a white-paper, but they are probably too high-level."
15:30:26 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "When the use-case is there, it lets us know of the issues around consuming the package.  If there are items that are missing from existing applications, based on the choices made for the format, we need to know.  Security use cases, means we have a need to decide/define on those protocols. Basically - what is missing at the technical level.  It's mostly your group that can say 'there is
15:30:26 <NickRuffilo> something missing there'""
15:30:34 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "You want us to add issues to the GitHub?"
15:30:46 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "GitHub or e-mail to the packaging mailing list are both acceptable"
15:31:01 <mgylling> ack dauwhe
15:31:26 <Zakim> -pbelfanti
15:31:46 <david_stroup> apologies, I need to drop...
15:31:53 <NickRuffilo> ???: "Epub can be a pain - especially because the MIMETYPE cannot be compressed, and people need to google it, etc..."
15:31:53 <Zakim> -david_stroup
15:32:04 <tzviya> +1
15:32:06 <mgylling> s/???/dauwhe/
15:32:19 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "If you look at the packaging spec, there are 3 reasons - it's streamable, tools for ZIP suck, and metadata."
15:33:01 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "If you think it's hard to make a zip, imagine how hard it is to make some new package that doesn't have tools.  But, I can put a bunch of headers in."
15:33:24 <NickRuffilo> Brady: "Looking at the discussion was 'sure, you can stream a zip, but look at all this metadata'"
15:33:35 <ivan> +1 dauwhe
15:34:06 <NickRuffilo> Dauwhe: "If we can figure out a way to do things in a specific way, ZIP would do what we need."
15:34:23 <mgylling> q?
15:34:28 <mgylling> ack HeatherF
15:34:54 <HeatherF> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/arcmedia/charter/
15:35:11 <NickRuffilo> Heather: "This is a small aside - IDPF is working on a top-level media-type for archiving.  They are looking at the W3C's work on packaging.  It is work just started.  Charter is linked in IRC."
15:35:30 <NickRuffilo> Heather: "Input on the work is welcomed."
15:35:31 <mgylling> s/IDPF/IETF/
15:36:33 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "The fact that there is a need for a ZIP with a mimetype has been a need for many years.  Lots of mess on the web because of that.  The fact that we are creating an archive is good input for them as well."
15:36:45 <mgylling> ack tzviya
15:37:37 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Great workflow in place for epubs, but as epub becomes more complicated and other publications are searching for a good format, some publishers are looking for a good - or better - way to publish online.  This new package format would be good for those publisher and they may be interested in this new format."
15:38:39 <mgylling> q?
15:38:43 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Concern is also how readers are going to handle this specific format.  Phones right now don't well handle a ZIP file or an EPUB."
15:38:43 <ivan> q?
15:38:45 <ivan> q+
15:39:20 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "How does the next 6-12 months look?"
15:40:08 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "No fixed plan yet, so we'll have to do some review/discussion.  Pretty sure that in the next 6 months, not much will get done with respect to decisions that will render the spec final."
15:40:23 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:40:32 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "Probably have some new discussions in mid-april.  Slow progress of the specification."
15:40:51 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Are there plans to extend the specification with an API specification as well?"
15:41:43 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "Not currently, but it is something that might be done.  There might be some interaction with a service worker, as a way to deal with caching.  But currenlty that is the only specification that we got in terms of using an API.  No API to manipulate directly the package or contents of the package.  If there is a use-case/need, then why not?"
15:42:45 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "1) Streamability of ZIP - definitive answer.  2) Produce use-cases for packaging and feed those to the group."
15:43:16 <clapierre> I found this Patent from Google on Streamable zip filed last year,  http://www.google.com/patents/WO2014113715A1?cl=en
15:43:28 <NickRuffilo> ...: "If we get the volunteers to do this work, doesn't mean that publishers shouldn't use ZIP.  Just researching having multi-part MIME as an option for the future.  Distinction between doing the work and deciding that it will actually be used."
15:44:40 <mgylling> Thank you Yves!
15:44:41 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "One practical comment: Yves, Until decisions are made, is it OK if you come to this call regularly to keep us up-to-date?"
15:45:01 <NickRuffilo> Yves: "I can talk to you and keep you updated that you can keep them updated, and I'll join if something to say."
15:45:24 <Zakim> -Yves
15:45:44 <ivan> Topic: accessibility tf
15:45:46 <Yves> Yves has left #dpub
15:47:00 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "I sent off an e-mail this morning to a few people - summary of the accessibility taskforce accomplishments.  Looking at WPEG? techniques.  ARIA techniques and SMILE are all relevant.  Silverlight NOT relevant.  General: A dozen or so not required.  And a dozen we weren't sure of.  About 1/2 dozen HTML techniques we weren't sure of, as with CSS.  Only one PDF technique that wasn't
15:47:00 <NickRuffilo> relevant."
15:47:18 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "We haven't finished the common failures or client-side scripting techniques."
15:47:23 <mgylling> q?
15:47:45 <ivan> q+
15:48:03 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
15:48:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ayla_Stein, duga, Tzviya, Ivan, astearns, HeatherF, NickRuffilo, dauwhe, dkaplan3, Markus, murakami, Julie_Morris, Karen_Myers, lfowler, clapierre, bjdmeest,
15:48:06 <Zakim> ... tmichel
15:48:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see bjdmeest, Susann_Keohane, clapierre, pbelfanti, LFowler, Julie_Morris, murakami, HeatherF, dauwhe, tzviya, brady_duga, Ayla_Stein, dkaplan3, NickRuffilo, mgylling,
15:48:06 <Zakim> ... Zakim, RRSAgent, tmichel, ivan, rego_, Karen_, plinss, liam, iank, mihnea_____, astearns, trackbot
15:48:10 <NickRuffilo> ...: "We'll get feedback from Tzviya and others to see if we need to bring concerns to the rest of digital publishing group.  Will send out an e-mail if that seems necessary.  Then continue on next steps towards producing a note based on concern/issues."
15:48:21 <mgylling> ack ivan
15:48:38 <dkaplan3> s/SMILE/SMIL/
15:48:53 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Did you identify features/requirements that are relevant for teh DPUB world but are not addressed in current documents?"
15:49:22 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "That's a bit more complicated.  Such as Page Numbers, Drop Caps, etc, but some of these things could be addressed from other specs."
15:49:30 <tzviya> q+
15:50:19 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Once you have the first body of documentation done, you may want to have guest-stars in to discuss new ways and new ideas for what could the gaps be."
15:50:26 <mgylling> ack tzviya
15:50:34 <tzviya> You were a little concerned about resources - how are you doing?
15:51:27 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "We were low on resources, and we're running low.  Just a small subset of assets were helping out.  We're definintely in need of additional resources.  If anyone is interested in creating this note, we need as much help as we can get."
15:51:27 <tzviya> and, what is your timeline for publishing a note? who is the audience?
15:52:24 <NickRuffilo> Charles: "The audience is publishers.  Timeline...  Ideally by the end of this year.  My availability just got cut in half so I'm running low on time myself.  Deborah is as well.  We would need more help."
15:53:32 <NickRuffilo> Deborah: "What we've been doing is modeling alot of work.  The other group had a lot of volunteers to data-gather.  They had alot more regular/steady input from a regular weekly commitment.  Chairs also did an enormous amount of work.  Charles and I are struggling with new amounts of work, so we need additional retailers."
15:53:33 <HeatherF> Happy to volunteer, I just feel too ignorant to be useful
15:53:41 <mgylling> q?
15:54:55 <NickRuffilo> Ivan: "Update on ROLE module."
15:55:08 <tzviya> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
15:55:09 <ivan> Topic: Update to role module
15:56:10 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Been working with ?PS? for draft of ROLE module.  (link posted)  Very early editors draft of digital publishing vocab.  ARIA.  Cut out a few additional terms as other areas would be better addressed elsewhere.  When we can include ETS and other groups, we can add more.  This is the list of terms we are working with."
15:56:25 <ivan> s/?PS?/PF/
15:56:57 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Feel free to look through it.  Some terms still need clarificaiton.  Need to also remove some ambiguity from the terms/defintions and make sure things have context outside of digital publishing as well."
15:57:59 <NickRuffilo> Markus: "One of the first challenges is to determine the scope of publishing and the defintions of the terms.  Almost thousands of potential terms and canditates.  Going to start simple with basic stuff - for general simple books - and evolve it via other modules and extending this model. "
15:58:29 <mgylling> q?
15:58:34 <NickRuffilo> ...: "We're not entirely sure we've reached the sweet spot of 'too much' and 'too little' but we'll be dealing with this over the next few months.  Making sure it is useful for a significant portion of content out there."
15:58:59 <NickRuffilo> ...: "Resource issues?"
15:59:43 <NickRuffilo> Tzviya: "Right now we are OK with resources and timeline.  Very dependent on PF.  Will know more on thursday when we meet with that group.  First editor's draft will be soon?  Possibly before the IDPF meeting at BEA (may)"
15:59:43 <mgylling> q?
16:00:17 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
16:00:32 <tzviya> remember to book for F2F in May!
16:00:34 <Zakim> -clapierre
16:00:56 <clapierre> clapierre has left #dpub
16:00:57 <Zakim> -Ayla_Stein
16:00:58 <Zakim> -HeatherF
16:00:59 <Zakim> -Markus
16:00:59 <Zakim> -lfowler
16:01:01 <Zakim> -Julie_Morris
16:01:01 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:01:02 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:01:02 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:01:03 <Zakim> -NickRuffilo
16:01:03 <Zakim> -duga
16:01:04 <Zakim> -astearns
16:01:04 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:01:08 <Zakim> -murakami
16:01:09 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:02:12 <tmichel> rrsagent draft minutes
16:03:45 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/09-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:06:10 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, tmichel, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM
16:06:11 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
16:06:11 <Zakim> Attendees were Ayla_Stein, duga, Tzviya, pkra, Ivan, +1.206.675.aaaa, HeatherF, dauwhe, NickRuffilo, astearns, dkaplan3, Markus, murakami, +1.646.336.aabb, Karen_Myers,
16:06:12 <Zakim> ... Julie_Morris, lfowler, Yves, david_stroup, pbelfanti, +1.408.979.aacc, clapierre, +1.512.445.aadd, bjdmeest, tmichel
16:06:13 <NickRuffilo> NickRuffilo has left #dpub
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16:43:26 <ivan> zakim, bye
16:43:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dpub
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