13:58:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dacg
13:58:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/04-dacg-irc
13:58:56 <phila> zakim, this will be dacg
13:58:56 <Zakim> ok, phila, I see DATA_DACG()9:00AM already started
13:59:08 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:59:13 <phila> chair: Phil
13:59:14 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee has joined #dacg
13:59:19 <phila> meeting: DACG Monthly
13:59:31 <JeniT> JeniT has joined #dacg
13:59:45 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:59:46 <phila> zakim, [ is me
13:59:46 <Zakim> +phila; got it
14:00:27 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/data/CG/wiki/Telecon:2015.03.04
14:00:36 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/data/CG/wiki/Telecon:2015.03.04
14:00:37 <phila> scribe: phila
14:00:55 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:00:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 3224 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
14:01:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:01:32 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:01:39 <deirdrelee> zakim, [ipcaller] is me
14:01:40 <Zakim> sorry, deirdrelee, I do not recognize a party named '[ipcaller]'
14:01:52 <Zakim> +TimBL
14:01:59 <ivan> zakim, TimBL is ivan
14:01:59 <Zakim> +ivan; got it
14:01:59 <deirdrelee> i'll take .a
14:02:00 <Zakim> + +33.4.93.00.aaaa
14:02:02 <phila> zakim, JeniT is deirdrelee
14:02:02 <Zakim> +deirdrelee; got it
14:02:09 <phila> zakim, who is here?
14:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_Wood, phila, deirdrelee, [IPcaller.a], ivan, +33.4.93.00.aaaa
14:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeniT, deirdrelee, RRSAgent, Zakim, phila, raphael, ivan, tbaker
14:02:15 <phila> zakim, ipcaller.a is JeniT
14:02:16 <Zakim> +JeniT; got it
14:02:19 <phila> zakim, who is here?
14:02:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_Wood, phila, deirdrelee, JeniT, ivan, raphael
14:02:20 <Zakim> On IRC I see JeniT, deirdrelee, RRSAgent, Zakim, phila, raphael, ivan, tbaker
14:02:47 <Soeren> Soeren has joined #dacg
14:03:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:03:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
14:03:49 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
14:04:08 <phila> zakim, ipcaller.a is tbaker
14:04:08 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
14:04:20 <phila> present+ Dave_Wood
14:04:44 <Zakim> + +49.2.aabb
14:04:55 <phila> zakim, aabb is Soeren
14:04:55 <Zakim> +Soeren; got it
14:05:39 <phila> zakim, who is here?
14:05:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see David_Wood, phila, deirdrelee, JeniT, ivan, raphael, tbaker, Soeren
14:05:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see Soeren, JeniT, deirdrelee, RRSAgent, Zakim, phila, raphael, ivan, tbaker
14:06:01 <Zakim> +Arnaud
14:06:12 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #dacg
14:07:24 <phila> Topic: Updates round the table
14:07:57 <deirdrelee> http://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/
14:08:01 <phila> deirdrelee: We've just published our FPWD of our best practices doc
14:08:06 <deirdrelee> http://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp-ucr/
14:08:09 <phila> ... and an updated UCR doc
14:08:36 <phila> ... Still very much work in progress but we thought it was important to try and get feedback
14:08:42 <phila> ... designed a template and then tried to focus on specific areas
14:08:54 <phila> ... so we're open to improvements and comments
14:09:01 <phila> ... also looking at charter vocabs in the charter
14:09:11 <phila> ... one on quality and granularity, and one on usage
14:09:15 <phila> ... looking at each of those
14:09:25 <phila> ... how to they differ, what does the UCR set tell us
14:09:39 <phila> ... discussions centred around building on DCAT
14:09:57 <phila> ... we met at TPAC. Next f2f is April 13-14 collocated with ApacheCon
14:10:38 <phila> JeniT: Things progessing well with CSVW. Productive f2f recently
14:10:48 <phila> ... got resolutions to all issues open in GitHub
14:10:59 <phila> ... since then working on editors enacting the resolutions
14:11:01 <ivan> (we have cca. 300 issues in the github tracker:-)
14:11:15 <phila> ... Tabular data model, processing tab data, metadata etc.
14:11:27 <phila> ... document for syntax for what you can say about tabular data
14:11:39 <phila> ... 2 other specs a little further behind on conversion to JSON or RDF
14:11:47 <phila> ... using GH well to collaborate between editors
14:11:56 <phila> ... small number of people so we're able to agree quickly
14:12:03 <phila> ... aim is to get new drafts out by end of March
14:12:12 <phila> ... anad then to move rapidly into LCCR
14:12:23 <phila> ... and having implementations
14:12:36 <phila> ... one in the bag already but obviously want to encourage more
14:12:51 <phila> ... heading for completion in August. All well except for low levels of participation
14:12:54 <raphael> What are the existing implementations or planned ones?
14:13:08 <JeniT> Gregg Kellogg has been working on a Ruby one
14:13:21 <phila> raphael: Just wondering about the otehr implementations
14:13:27 <phila> ... what are those?
14:13:36 <davidwood> davidwood has joined #DACG
14:13:40 <phila> JeniT: Gregg has one as part of his systems
14:13:51 <phila> ... does parsing and converting (written in Ruby)
14:13:58 <phila> ... some promises too.
14:14:15 <phila> ... plans to do one in Python and plan is to expand the ODI CSV Lint Tool
14:14:23 <phila> ... to use the CSVW spec for validation
14:14:35 <raphael> CSVlint: http://csvlint.io/
14:14:36 <phila> ... that gregg may not implement
14:14:48 <phila> ivan: Also one coming from Pacific researcher
14:14:55 <davidwood> Has anyone spoken to RPI? John Erickson should have an eye on an implementation./
14:14:56 <phila> JeniT: I didn't include Ivan's implementation
14:15:05 <phila> ivan: There's Bill as well
14:15:10 <JeniT> davidwood: nope
14:15:24 <phila> raphael: Any attempt to get plug ins for Excel etc?
14:15:40 <phila> JeniT: Tried to design it so that the model is an abstraction on top of specific formats
14:15:49 <phila> ... we have a non-normative section on parsing
14:15:51 <davidwood> I'll ping him
14:15:58 <phila> ... leave open for tooling to handle otehr types of table
14:16:05 <phila> ... and then process into tabular data
14:16:22 <phila> ... all we're defining about how to read in the data is the non-norm stuff around CSV
14:17:23 <phila> raphael: I think the ATOS friends in charge of the DataLift platform can already read CSV and Excel
14:17:33 <phila> ... they can do that in a systematic manner
14:17:47 <phila> ... and we have other tools. They were looking at what was going on in the CSVW
14:17:56 <phila> ... waitinbg for a freeze before doing any implementation
14:18:07 <phila> ... sounds like we're nearely there so maybe thay should start soon?
14:18:18 <phila> JeniT: Once next versions are published (end March)
14:18:25 <phila> ... that would be the time to reach implementers
14:18:57 <phila> Soeren: I'll need to catch up with people on this. Triplification for Big data Eu
14:19:16 <raphael> Datalift platform: http://datalift.org/
14:19:18 <phila> ... Ivan ??? did the triplification work
14:19:41 <phila> s/Big data EU/Publicdata.eu/
14:21:43 <phila> phila: It's Capgemini Plus FOKUS plus a little bit fo ODI
14:22:02 <JeniT> thanks all :)
14:22:10 <phila> Arnaud: On LDP
14:22:36 <phila> Arnaud: LDP is now a Rec. It feels like old news. The WG reached that point in December but it took a while to get to the official announcement
14:22:41 <phila> ... the WG itself...
14:22:49 <phila> ... we requested an extension to end July 2015
14:23:05 <phila> ... plan was to co,plete documents, bith in CR - Paging and PATCH
14:23:11 <phila> ... initiall Paging was part of hte LDP spec
14:23:23 <phila> ... separated it out to allow progress with LDP spec
14:23:38 <phila> ... problem now is that the spec has evolved and people are not so interested in implementing Paging
14:23:52 <phila> ... so my feeling is that we won't reach CR Exit criteria for paging
14:24:08 <phila> ... IBM has implemented it and we have some people saying yes eventually... but
14:24:19 <phila> ... I was asking what it would take to generate more interest.
14:24:39 <phila> ... Probel is that it doesn't do enough. Sandro was interested but in the end realised it wasn't quite enough for wqhat he wanted to do
14:24:45 <phila> ... Oracle did something similar
14:24:58 <raphael> s/Probel/Problem
14:25:04 <raphael> s/wqhat/what
14:25:18 <phila> ... Oracle want to be able to do more querying and filtering so it's not so interesting to them
14:25:45 <phila> ... we have some functions but not enough. Trying to add what it would take is a lot of work so I'm not sure it will be done. Probably going to be parked as a Note
14:25:53 <phila> ... then there's LD Patch
14:25:58 <phila> ... use with HTTP PATCH verb
14:26:15 <phila> ... to update a resource without replacing whole resource
14:26:18 <phila> ... now in CR
14:26:36 <phila> ... Other than that, the WG has been wondering what to do next for a while.
14:26:43 <phila> ... Plan has been to have a workshop. Not clear how much interest there is
14:27:11 <phila> ... I mentioned our wishlist before. But should we jump in to working on that or give people a pause and see what happens
14:27:44 <phila> ... been working onworkshop for months. Now looking at collocating with annotations WG in the bay Area
14:27:54 <phila> ... now too late for official workshop
14:28:04 <phila> ... so may do a mini/unofficial workshop
14:28:05 <davidwood> LDP public meeting announcement: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Main_Page/Linked_Data_2015
14:28:12 <phila> ... I can't take the lead on it. Maybe Ashock will
14:28:46 <davidwood> s/Ashock/Ashok/
14:28:56 <phila> phila: So how big would that be?
14:29:02 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Main_Page/Linked_Data_2015
14:29:14 <phila> Arnaud: We'd invite people and hope to attract people
14:29:46 <ivan> q+
14:29:48 <Zakim> -phila
14:30:26 <phila_> phila_ has joined #dacg
14:30:47 <phila_> zakim, call phila-mobile
14:30:47 <Zakim> ok, phila_; the call is being made
14:30:49 <Zakim> +Phila
14:31:35 <raphael> scribenick: raphael
14:31:55 <raphael> Ivan: I'm also participating in the Open Annotation WG
14:32:15 <raphael> ... the OA datamodel is an RDF model which has a JSON-LD syntax
14:32:28 <raphael> ... there is a need to store and exchange those annotations
14:32:42 <raphael> ... thus a protocol, and one option is LDP
14:33:20 <raphael> ... the Social Web WG has a similar requirement and they also list LDP and other candidates (related to activity streams)
14:33:43 <raphael> ... there will be a Social Web WG meeting in Boston soon with some representative of the Open Annotation WG
14:34:12 <raphael> ... there will be iAnnotate conference in April where the Open Annotation WG will meet, with some people from the Social Web WG and LDP
14:34:39 <phila__> phila__ has joined #dacg
14:35:01 <raphael> Arnaud: LDP can also be used for people who are RDF-centric
14:35:26 <raphael> ... POST-ing things in a graph
14:36:01 <raphael> ... to some extent, serving requirements that the Open Annotation WG has
14:37:09 <raphael> Phil: any liaison between LDP and the CSV group?
14:37:53 <raphael> ... it is unclear what we will do next, looking for your input
14:38:15 <raphael> Soren: what we need is more collaborative ways to build and share vocabularies
14:38:32 <raphael> ... we use github as a tool to edit vocabularies, this has some limitations
14:38:34 <Soeren> https://zenodo.org/record/15023#.VPcRzPnF_UU
14:38:44 <Soeren> https://github.com/vocol/vocol
14:38:57 <raphael> ... vocol use git as versioning
14:39:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:39:24 <Zakim> -Phila
14:39:32 <phila__> zakim, [ is me
14:39:32 <Zakim> +phila__; got it
14:40:12 <phila__> Soeren: Looking at vocabs for connecting manufacturing robots and sensors etc
14:40:21 <phila__> ... we want to do more LD in manufacturing
14:40:31 <phila__> ... vocabs eitehr absent or superficial
14:40:38 <phila__> ... very time consuming
14:40:54 <phila__> ... so vocabs are important from my perspective
14:41:23 <raphael> q+
14:41:31 <phila__> ack ivan
14:41:34 <phila__> ack raphael
14:41:41 <Zakim> -JeniT
14:41:43 <phila__> raphael: On similar lines to Soeren
14:41:47 <raphael> http://boris.villazon.terrazas.name/projects/prolov/index.html
14:42:18 <phila__> raphael: New plugin for Protege and looking up LOV
14:42:42 <phila__> ... still under development, showing usefulness of the plugin
14:43:08 <phila__> ... Things like Smart Cities, when you discuss this, people wish to have some sort of Best practices, what are the vocabs we should use etc.
14:43:29 <phila__> ... they know all those vocabs exist but they wish to have a grouping of concrete examples
14:43:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:43:37 <phila__> ... this is what I see
14:43:54 <phila__> Soeren: People may find things they want to use but they want to use it differently.
14:44:03 <phila__> ... and many vocabs are published and then abandoned
14:44:20 <phila__> ... with GH you can fork, merge and branch and we need someething like this
14:44:27 <phila__> ... we are looking at using GH for that
14:44:48 <phila__> zakim, who is noisy?
14:44:59 <Zakim> phila__, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Soeren (69%), Arnaud (40%), phila__ (15%), ivan (10%), raphael (4%)
14:45:09 <phila__> zakim, mute Arnaud
14:45:09 <Zakim> Arnaud should now be muted
14:45:29 <deirdrelee> +1 this would be interesting to allow people to extend/merge vocabs while still ensuring they are compliant the original vocabs
14:46:27 <phila__> http://owlgred.lumii.lv/
14:47:21 <JeniT> we had the same issue in CSV WG about which metadata terms to use
14:47:43 <phila__> phila_: Problem is that peopkle want BPs, but things like DWBP won't be so prescriptive
14:47:49 <phila__> ... we're trying to be tech neutral
14:48:26 <phila__> ... in the last meeting we talked about how standards are fluid. You want adoption but standards and techs evolve
14:48:45 <Zakim> -Soeren
14:48:56 <phila__> ... as a WG we should perhaps address this, but perhaps wth some softer recommendations
14:49:29 <phila__> phila_: So how did you handle this balance?
14:49:34 <phila__> JeniT: We ducked it in CSVW
14:49:43 <deirdrelee> q+
14:49:52 <phila__> ... we didn't want to define which bits of DC to use which are also duplicated in schema.org
14:50:21 <phila__> ... and hoped that the DWBP might guive us some recommendations like schema.org is right for X but dct is better for Y, or use multiple vocabs
14:50:34 <phila__> ... it's not in scope for CSVW
14:50:37 <phila__> ack davidwood
14:50:40 <phila__> ack deirdrelee
14:51:13 <phila__> deirdrelee: We're going to be biased towards W3C standards, so arfe we going to recommend schema.org when there's a W3C rec doing the smae thing?
14:51:27 <JeniT> q+
14:51:44 <phila__> ... when it comes to general topics, OK, we can talk about the Web, we can, but in domains like health and trabsport, we don't have the expertise to make pronouncements
14:51:55 <phila__> ack JeniT
14:52:35 <phila__> JeniT: Reflecting on where this has a practical effect. Our OD certificates... we tried to automatically pull in some info about the dataset that people are registereing
14:52:49 <phila__> ... in doing that we wanted to be pulling in the keywords for a dataset, or a description
14:53:18 <phila__> ... we currently support a handful of ways of doing that, but it's a pain that there are so many ways and we don't know which is the one we should be focussing on from an implementation perspective
14:53:53 <phila__> ... I get the point Deirdre re domain expertise but in terms of metadata, a bit of description *could* help to rationalise the metadata a but
14:54:48 <phila__> phila_: Any comment Tom?
14:55:02 <phila__> tbaker: Something that DanBri has been advocating is that you simply say both
14:55:14 <Zakim> -JeniT
14:55:20 <phila__> ... they can be mapped at a term level but they can also be mapped at the metadata level by providing both for certain key properties
14:55:37 <phila__> ... so maybe that's what we need to suggest
14:55:52 <phila__> ivan: That's a very pragmatic solution but it's not nice
14:56:35 <phila__> ... in the CSV WG... You put e.g. title and you can use dcterms:title and you can repeat it in schema which is a pain
14:56:41 <phila__> ... I know what to do, but it feels wring
14:56:46 <phila__> s/wring/wrong/
14:56:55 <phila__> tbaker: The alternative is to put more energy into mapping
14:57:46 <davidwood> q+
14:57:59 <phila__> ack davidwood
14:58:47 <ivan> q+
14:58:50 <phila__> davidwood: I admit... when I look through the CSV spec, it's useful for the use cases. I hope it's successful. All the times I've faced turining CSV into RDF it's been v complex
14:59:04 <phila__> ... it's not always handlable in a simple way. RPI showed this
14:59:18 <phila__> ... I have concerns  about the approach
14:59:29 <phila__> ivan: Yes, David, I realise that
14:59:40 <phila__> ... we struggled early in the group to choose the level of complexity that we would handle
14:59:59 <phila__> ... we were looking at a templating language (Mustache)
15:00:11 <phila__> ... work going on in Ghent (iMinds) adapting R2RML
15:00:26 <phila__> ...we had to realise that it was unrealistic to specify that within 3 years
15:01:13 <phila__> ... so now we have a simple mapping. Not quite as simple as R2RML. Covers a large number of our use cases and there's an escape mechanism where people can plug in extra tools
15:01:32 <phila__> ... those tools may work on the JSON mapping or the table or whatever
15:01:41 <phila__> ... maybe once this is done there might be a second round
15:02:00 <phila__> ... we started a Community group to look at more complex cases but the CG has yet to take off.
15:02:16 <phila__> ... No accepted approach to handle all the cases. Maybe the market decides on the best approach
15:02:27 <davidwood> I take the point, Ivan
15:02:41 <phila__> ... or a complex thing that may or may not get implemented
15:02:44 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:02:44 <Zakim> ivan is being disconnected
15:02:46 <Zakim> -ivan
15:03:05 <Zakim> -tbaker
15:03:14 <Zakim> -David_Wood
15:03:15 <phila__> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/04-dacg-minutes.html phila__
15:03:16 <Zakim> -deirdrelee
15:03:17 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:03:34 <davidwood> davidwood has left #dacg
15:04:42 <ivan> ivan has left #dacg
15:18:57 <raphael> http://wikitimes.l3s.de/
15:20:15 <raphael> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEfWACHLynU
15:22:36 <phila__> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/F2f_Barcelona
15:25:00 <Zakim> -raphael
15:25:01 <Zakim> DATA_DACG()9:00AM has ended
15:25:01 <Zakim> Attendees were David_Wood, phila, ivan, +33.4.93.00.aaaa, deirdrelee, raphael, JeniT, tbaker, +49.2.aabb, Soeren, Arnaud, phila__
15:25:17 <phila__> RRSAgent, generate minutes
15:25:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/04-dacg-minutes.html phila__
16:43:42 <Arnaud> Arnaud has left #dacg
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