IRC log of tt on 2015-02-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:04 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:58:04 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-tt-irc
14:58:06 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
14:58:06 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #tt
14:58:08 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be TTML
14:58:08 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:09 [trackbot]: Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:58:09 [trackbot]: Date: 26 February 2015
15:01:03 [atai2]: atai2 has joined #tt
15:01:08 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
15:01:16 [Zakim]: +nigel
15:01:25 [nigel]: chair: nigel
15:01:28 [nigel]: Present: nigel
15:01:36 [nigel]: scribe: nigel
15:01:59 [Zakim]: +Andreas
15:02:11 [nigel]: Present+ Andreas
15:02:30 [Zakim]: +pal
15:02:40 [nigel]: Present+ pal
15:02:46 [Frans]: Frans has joined #tt
15:03:00 [Zakim]: + +41.22.717.aaaa
15:03:18 [nigel]: Present+ Frans
15:03:22 [nigel]: zakim, aaaa is Frans
15:03:22 [Zakim]: +Frans; got it
15:03:58 [nigel]: Regrets: none
15:04:04 [nigel]: Regrets: glenn
15:05:03 [plh]: plh has joined #tt
15:05:12 [Zakim]: +Plh
15:05:17 [nigel]: Present+ plh
15:06:44 [nigel]: Topic: WD publication process
15:06:50 [nigel]: nigel: I propose to postpone this
15:07:05 [nigel]: plh: The new process is for early adopters - there's no pressure to adopt it right now.
15:07:20 [nigel]: ... If the editors of the WebVTT spec want to use it and the group is okay with it there's no reason why not.
15:07:41 [Zakim]: +jdsmith
15:07:45 [jdsmith]: jdsmith has joined #tt
15:07:55 [nigel]: nigel: I have a preference for adopting the same processes across the whole group when possible.
15:08:06 [nigel]: ... Note that the WebVTT editors are not present now.
15:08:13 [nigel]: Present+ jdsmith
15:08:42 [nigel]: plh: Challenging nigel's approach, the new system does lower the workload for Thierry, so it's
15:08:53 [nigel]: ... good to adopt even if just for WebVTT for now.
15:11:02 [nigel]: nigel: Just to introduce this a bit better, it's a system that allows automatic publishing of WDs only
15:11:21 [nigel]: ... on any day of the week, as long as the documents meet the automatically checked technical
15:11:24 [nigel]: ... requirements.
15:12:36 [nigel]: pal: A priori I don't have a problem with this - as long as it has benefits.
15:12:56 [nigel]: nigel: There's also the idea that a single resolution from the group could pass publication
15:13:09 [nigel]: ... control to the editors to publish WDs whenever they like. That's a separate matter that I'm
15:13:14 [nigel]: ... currently less comfortable with.
15:13:27 [nigel]: plh: CSS, WebApps, Web Performance groups have made blanket decisions. Other groups want
15:13:33 [nigel]: ... to record the decision on every single publication.
15:14:09 [pal]: pal has joined #tt
15:14:31 [nigel]: nigel: I don't propose a blanket decision just yet, with those present now. I think Glenn
15:14:43 [nigel]: ... may have some technical questions about the new system, which we can cover later.
15:15:02 [nigel]: Topic: Action Items
15:15:20 [nigel]: action-368?
15:15:20 [trackbot]: action-368 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Update publication timeline diagram -- due 2015-02-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:15:20 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/368
15:15:32 [nigel]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications
15:16:03 [nigel]: close action-368
15:16:03 [trackbot]: Closed action-368.
15:16:11 [nigel]: action-369?
15:16:11 [trackbot]: action-369 -- Nigel Megitt to Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison -- due 2015-02-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:16:11 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/369
15:16:39 [nigel]: nigel: I did a second pass at this and sent it yesterday to the reflector. It includes the clarifications
15:16:47 [nigel]: ... from when we discussed the queries 2 weeks ago.
15:17:39 [nigel]: nigel: Pierre, are you happy that this forms the basis to clarify the position with SMPTE?
15:18:03 [nigel]: pal: Yes. I think we should also consider the SMPTE-TT background color initial value change.
15:18:13 [nigel]: ... It would be good to ask the question because there might be some specific history on that.
15:18:22 [nigel]: ... Before making a change to IMSC 1 it would be good to learn that history.
15:19:12 [nigel]: Action: pal Draft SMPTE request including dispositions from Action-369 and backgroundColor initial value question
15:19:12 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-378 - Draft smpte request including dispositions from action-369 and backgroundcolor initial value question [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-03-05].
15:19:39 [nigel]: pal: I think the latter question is more urgent since IMSC 1 is in CR whereas TTML2 is at an earlier stage.
15:19:59 [nigel]: action-376?
15:19:59 [trackbot]: action-376 -- Nigel Megitt to Update cp21 to check current status of all issues -- due 2015-02-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:19:59 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/376
15:20:39 [nigel]: nigel: I've updated the status of CP21 to Open since Issue-231 is open.
15:20:51 [nigel]: ... I'll also update the index page to reflect that.
15:21:16 [nigel]: ... done.
15:21:40 [nigel]: nigel: I think we're waiting for some more edits to TTML2 on character rotation for issue-231.
15:22:08 [nigel]: action-377?
15:22:08 [trackbot]: action-377 -- Andreas Tai to Capture the ebu-tt-d style attributes issue on imsc 1 and raise an issue -- due 2015-02-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:22:08 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/377
15:22:39 [nigel]: atai2: I added an issue for IMSC 1 to add some more information for the extension features
15:22:54 [nigel]: ... multiRowAlign and linePadding and state that in EBU-TT-D they can only be specified as
15:23:09 [nigel]: ... children of <style> it is different in IMSC 1 where they can appear on <region>, <body>,
15:23:13 [nigel]: ... <div> and <p>
15:23:35 [nigel]: ... The issue is issue-375.
15:23:38 [nigel]: issue-375?
15:23:38 [trackbot]: issue-375 -- Use of the ebutts:linePadding and ebutts:multiRowAlign in IMSC 1 -- pending review
15:23:38 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/375
15:24:40 [nigel]: pal: The proposed solution for this is in place in the editor's draft.
15:24:41 [nigel]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/ttml-ww-profiles.html
15:25:05 [nigel]: atai2: I'm just looking at this...
15:25:16 [nigel]: pal: The change is in §7.4 Text Profile features, just above §8.
15:26:22 [nigel]: atai2: It's a minor issue if you specify where it may be specified rather than where it shall not.
15:26:35 [nigel]: pal: The problem is that if you do that then it's not clear that it can not be specified elsewhere.
15:26:40 [nigel]: ... I think this is unambiguous.
15:27:02 [nigel]: atai2: I have to have a look at this - I need to think about multiRowAlign. I think it applies only
15:27:12 [nigel]: ... to <p>.
15:27:27 [nigel]: pal: I had the same question and I couldn't find unambiguous guidance in EBU-TT-D so I followed
15:27:36 [nigel]: ... the issue to the letter and put them both in the same bucket.
15:27:58 [nigel]: atai2: I will check this with the editor of the EBU-TT-D annex and internally. It works alongside
15:28:15 [nigel]: ... tts:textAlign which can only be applied to <p>. It's missing in the EBU-TT-D spec whether or
15:28:23 [nigel]: ... not multiRowAlign is inheritable.
15:28:31 [nigel]: atai2: I'll edit the issue accordingly.
15:28:58 [nigel]: reopen issue-375
15:28:58 [trackbot]: Re-opened issue-375.
15:29:21 [nigel]: action-365?
15:29:21 [trackbot]: action-365 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
15:29:21 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/365
15:30:28 [nigel]: nigel: This is now dependent on action-378 so I'll bump the due date back.
15:31:14 [nigel]: action-375?
15:31:14 [trackbot]: action-375 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Complete processing of dece test criteria as per action-373 -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN
15:31:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/375
15:31:57 [nigel]: pal: I've spent some quality time with the DECE test suite...
15:32:07 [nigel]: Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report
15:32:09 [pal]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report
15:33:02 [nigel]: pal: Last week I had completed transfer of one of the tests from the DECE test suite.
15:33:20 [nigel]: ... I continued with that and added a second one. I started doing the remainder and realised that
15:33:35 [nigel]: ... all the rest are focused on things that are already tested in other tests or focused on DECE
15:33:48 [nigel]: ... specific issues like track selection and sync with video. I did not see an immediate need
15:34:04 [Zakim]: -Plh
15:34:54 [nigel]: ... to include those. My inclination is to close this action because we're good.
15:35:02 [nigel]: nigel: Have you deleted the ones that aren't relevant?
15:35:15 [nigel]: pal: I've not deleted them but I've shortened the table to include only those that are necessary.
15:35:32 [nigel]: ... Previously it included indiscriminately all the DECE tests. There was a lot of overlap and for
15:35:46 [nigel]: ... the purposes of the test suite we don't need all of them to cover all the IMSC 1 features.
15:36:04 [nigel]: nigel: Do we have a list of exactly which features we want to test?
15:36:18 [nigel]: pal: As per the email thread, we want to test every single feature that IMSC 1 introduces that is
15:36:21 [nigel]: ... not in TTML1.
15:36:57 [nigel]: pal: The extensions section of IMSC 1 is a good place to start.
15:37:19 [nigel]: nigel: That doesn't include all the normative features in the spec though does it?
15:37:56 [nigel]: pal: Those are all constraints relative to TTML1 that are present there.
15:38:01 [nigel]: nigel: What about e.g. HRM?
15:38:35 [nigel]: pal: The suggestion from thierry is to create a max complexity document, which is done and is in the test suite.
15:40:33 [nigel]: nigel: I think for tracking purposes we need a document that lists all the features we want to test, with the tests that verify each one.
15:40:52 [nigel]: pal: The table in the implementation report is my version of that list. The bold all column rows
15:41:06 [nigel]: ... describe each feature, and the rows beneath each one are the tests that verify them.
15:43:24 [nigel]: nigel: I'd like everyone whose interested to check that a) they're happy with the features being
15:43:48 [nigel]: ... tested and b) that the tests do check them. I'd like to set a date for completion of that review.
15:44:05 [nigel]: jdsmith: I think the process is clear here. For me the main question is: do the test cases fully
15:44:18 [nigel]: ... test the extension? I can see how this table was built for the Implementation Report. It looks
15:45:14 [nigel]: ... like it covers all of the extension paragraphs in appendix F.
15:45:44 [nigel]: nigel: My general concern is that not all the normative statements in the spec are captured as
15:45:57 [nigel]: ... extension features in F so we need to review against the whole document.
15:46:58 [nigel]: nigel: I propose that we allow 2 weeks from today for everyone to review the implementation report
15:47:14 [nigel]: ... and either raise any queries/issues or make changes or say they're happy with it (where silence
15:47:19 [nigel]: ... is taken as happiness!)
15:47:49 [nigel]: group: happy with proposal to allow 2 weeks from today to close off the tests.
15:48:23 [nigel]: pal: What's captured today in the implementation report is everything I think we need from the DECE test criteria.
15:48:42 [nigel]: close action-375
15:48:42 [trackbot]: Closed action-375.
15:49:09 [nigel]: Topic: F2F
15:49:24 [nigel]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/F2F-april-2015
15:49:58 [nigel]: nigel: Please could all who are attending confirm by adding your names to the list there?
15:50:54 [nigel]: nigel: Also please let me know if you want agenda items - I don't want to add whole new topics
15:50:57 [nigel]: ... on the day if possible.
15:51:10 [nigel]: atai2: I'm not sure yet if I can come. It would be good if we can continue with what we begain
15:51:16 [nigel]: s/begain/began
15:51:28 [nigel]: ... in Geneva on TTML/WebVTT mapping.
15:51:46 [nigel]: pal: To make this productive, and thinking about our past experience, someone would need to
15:51:51 [nigel]: ... bring a strawman starting point.
15:51:53 [nigel]: atai2: +1
15:53:15 [nigel]: atai2: I think that there's interest in this topic in the industry and we should continue to work
15:53:36 [nigel]: ... on it. Either with a strawman to discuss or just how to proceed on it in general. I agree that
15:53:51 [nigel]: ... we have to make more steps forward before discussing in detail at the F2F. We should not
15:53:58 [nigel]: ... in general let it fall under the table.
15:54:58 [nigel]: Topic: Issues
15:55:04 [nigel]: issue-373?
15:55:05 [trackbot]: issue-373 -- tts:lineHeight should apply to span -- raised
15:55:05 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/373
15:55:51 [nigel]: nigel: Glenn has raised this to allow for height control of ruby areas by using lineHeight on span.
15:56:08 [nigel]: pal: TTML was designed to capture as many authorial intents as possible, but it's now beginning
15:56:18 [nigel]: ... to look like generalised text markup.
15:57:23 [nigel]: nigel: My view is that TTML2 should include every semantic that is needed for global presentation
15:57:45 [nigel]: ... of timed text. There's another view that all text presentation semantics should be factored out
15:57:53 [nigel]: ... e.g. to CSS, but I don't know how we'd do that.
15:58:32 [nigel]: pal: My query is more philosophical - we're using span for a lot of the ruby presentations at the moment.
15:59:59 [nigel]: reopen issue-373
15:59:59 [trackbot]: Re-opened issue-373.
16:00:09 [nigel]: issue-374?
16:00:09 [trackbot]: issue-374 -- Generalize tts:fontVariantPosition -- raised
16:00:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/374
16:00:48 [nigel]: nigel: This is to allow half and full width forms and ruby as well as super and sub, combinatorially.
16:01:03 [nigel]: reopen issue-374
16:01:03 [trackbot]: Re-opened issue-374.
16:01:39 [nigel]: issue-364?
16:01:39 [trackbot]: issue-364 -- Relax constraint between the extents of the root container and the dimensions of the related video object frame -- pending review
16:01:39 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/364
16:02:50 [Zakim]: -pal
16:02:56 [Zakim]: -Andreas
16:02:57 [Zakim]: -jdsmith
16:02:57 [Zakim]: -Frans
16:03:00 [Zakim]: -nigel
16:03:01 [Zakim]: SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:03:01 [Zakim]: Attendees were nigel, Andreas, pal, +41.22.717.aaaa, Frans, Plh, jdsmith
16:03:23 [nigel]: nigel: I'm not sure where we're up to on this one but it's been pending review for over a month.
16:03:30 [nigel]: ... Given the time let's come back to it next week.
16:03:35 [nigel]: Topic: Change Proposals
16:03:54 [nigel]: nigel: I've added a 'before CR exit' priority and moved Tests to it since we don't need tests for the
16:04:03 [nigel]: ... WD for wide review, but only need them for CR exit.
16:04:23 [nigel]: nigel: Thanks all for attending - I'll adjourn now, meet again same time next week. [adjourns meeting]
16:04:29 [nigel]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:04:32 [nigel]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:32 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:07:15 [nigel]: s/postpone this/postpone this because one of our Editors, Glenn has sent his regrets for today.
16:14:34 [nigel]: ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:14:36 [nigel]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:36 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:21:23 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #tt