IRC log of dap on 2015-02-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:53:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-irc
14:53:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:53:14 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
14:53:16 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
14:53:16 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:17 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference
14:53:17 [trackbot]
Date: 19 February 2015
14:53:55 [fjh]
Agenda:https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0035.html
14:54:01 [fjh]
Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0035.html
14:54:13 [fjh]
fjh has changed the topic to: agenda https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0035.html dap 3279
14:54:40 [fjh]
Chair: Frederick_Hirsch
14:54:51 [fjh]
Present+ Frederick_Hirsch
14:55:10 [fjh]
Topic: Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements
14:58:18 [gmandyam]
gmandyam has joined #dap
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UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:59:35 [Zakim]
+gmandyam
14:59:43 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
14:59:44 [fjh]
zakim, ipcaller is me
14:59:45 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:59:59 [Zakim]
+ +7.831.233.aaaa
15:00:12 [fjh]
Present+ Giri_Mandyam
15:00:22 [Zakim]
+??P11
15:00:23 [fjh]
zakim, where is +7.831
15:00:23 [Zakim]
fjh, I do not see a party named 'where'. If you meant to ask a question you need to add '?'
15:00:24 [dom]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
15:00:26 [Zakim]
+dom; got it
15:00:29 [Andrey_Logvinov]
Zakim, +7.831.233.aaaa is me
15:00:29 [Zakim]
+Andrey_Logvinov; got it
15:00:57 [fjh]
Present+ Andrey_Logvinov, Dominique_Hazael-Massieux
15:03:10 [fjh]
ScribeNick: fjh
15:03:14 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see gmandyam, fjh, Andrey_Logvinov, dom
15:03:14 [anssik]
anssik has joined #dap
15:03:16 [Zakim]
On IRC I see gmandyam, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, Andrey_Logvinov, mats, dom, richt, Josh_Soref, tobie, slightlyoff, mounir, trackbot
15:03:29 [anssik]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
15:03:40 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
15:04:07 [fjh]
Welcome Dongseong, Intel https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0007.html
15:04:36 [dom]
FJH: Andrey, do you want to introduce yourself quickly to the group as a recent participant?
15:04:52 [dom]
Andrey: I'm one of the editors of the wake lock api
15:04:55 [dom]
... we're interested in developing other APIs for the Web platform
15:04:58 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:05:00 [dom]
FJH: which other APIs?
15:05:03 [anssik]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:05:04 [Zakim]
+anssik; got it
15:05:23 [dom]
Andrey: another we're developing is around CPU consumption and attribution to a given Web site
15:05:29 [dom]
... how much a given Web site consumes CPU
15:05:39 [dom]
... on the client
15:05:54 [dom]
FJH: is that something you would like to add to the charter? is there a draft?
15:06:02 [dom]
Andrey: I'll give you a link
15:06:47 [dom]
FJH: Dongseong from Intel joined us recently — anssi, do you know of his interests?
15:07:00 [dom]
Anssi: mostly on media capture (esp. depth stream)
15:07:09 [fjh]
Media Capture TF
15:07:10 [fjh]
2 FPWDs published -
15:07:11 [fjh]
Screen Capture, http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-screen-capture-20150210/
15:07:12 [fjh]
Audio Output Devices API http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-audio-output-20150210/
15:07:12 [dom]
FJH: two FPWD were published recently by the media capture task force
15:07:13 [fjh]
FPWD CfC completed - Media Capture from DOM Events, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0021.html
15:07:33 [dom]
FJH: I'll have to cancel one of our scheduled calls on April 2nd
15:07:48 [dom]
... I'll update the meeting schedule
15:07:54 [dom]
Topic: Minutes approval
15:08:03 [fjh]
Approve minutes from 22 January 2015
15:08:04 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/att-0037/minutes-2015-01-22.html
15:08:04 [fjh]
proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 22 January 2015 are approved
15:08:16 [dom]
RESOLVED: Minutes from 22 January 2015 are approved https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/att-0037/minutes-2015-01-22.html
15:08:27 [dom]
Topic: VIBRATION API IS a FINE W3C RECOMMENDATION!!!!
15:08:30 [fjh]
Vibration API is W3C Recommendation, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0024.html
15:08:34 [dom]
FJH: congrats
15:08:51 [dom]
Toipc: HTML Media Capture
15:08:56 [dom]
FJH: tests have been updated
15:09:07 [fjh]
Tests updated, please review and run tests; https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0031.html
15:09:08 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0033.html
15:09:09 [anssik]
s/Toipc:/Topic:/
15:09:22 [dom]
... we need help on running and reviewing tests
15:09:35 [dom]
... we owe big thanks to Zhiqiang for his work on tests
15:09:52 [dom]
Anssi: I haven't looked at this yet
15:10:52 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to review HTML Media Capture tests - due March 12
15:10:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-731 - Review html media capture tests [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2015-03-12].
15:10:58 [dom]
Anssi: I'll review them too as editor
15:11:05 [dom]
ACTION: Anssi to review html media capture tests
15:11:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-732 - Review html media capture tests [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2015-02-26].
15:11:13 [dom]
Topic: Battery API
15:11:27 [fjh]
The battery test suite has been updated to reflect the latest spec at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues?q=label%3Abattery-status+is%3Aclosed
15:11:28 [fjh]
You can try again the updated tests at http://www.w3c-test.org/battery-status/
15:11:28 [fjh]
See https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0029.html
15:11:34 [dom]
FJH: Zhiqiang has updated the test suite for battery
15:11:41 [fjh]
Chrome doesn't support chargingTime and dischargingTime attributes. Issue with test report generation.
15:11:42 [fjh]
See https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0030.html
15:11:54 [dom]
... there is a chrome issue about chargingTime/dischargingTime
15:11:56 [anssik]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0036.html
15:12:28 [dom]
q+ to talk about WebIDL impl bugs and Rec track stages
15:12:53 [dom]
Anssi: there are a idlharness-based tests that fail due to the fact that Chrome doesn't full comply with WebIDL yet
15:13:37 [dom]
... apart from that, there is another fail due to a bug in Chrome — that hopefully can be fixed (will double check I understood the test correctly)
15:13:39 [fjh]
ackq+
15:13:42 [fjh]
q+
15:13:44 [fjh]
ack dom
15:13:44 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to talk about WebIDL impl bugs and Rec track stages
15:13:48 [dom]
... apart from that, we have a conforming impl
15:14:21 [fjh]
dom: yes, webidl support is an issue. do you think we can expect a webidl fix in the short term or at all
15:14:33 [fjh]
anssik: latest activity was an hour ago, so seems to be in progress
15:15:06 [fjh]
anssik: there were some performance regressions so it might take more time even though goal is to get fix in
15:15:27 [fjh]
anssi: search with battery-status in logs and you can see specific fixex
15:15:32 [fjh]
s/fixex/fixes/
15:15:41 [fjh]
s/anssi/anssik/
15:15:56 [fjh]
anssik: believe high on projects agenda given people involved
15:16:26 [fjh]
dom: good, so regarding REC track, two options assuming Firefox updated, could wait till bug is solved and tests pass
15:17:03 [fjh]
dom: or we give director note that this is well known issue with webidl and chrome and should not impact how this spec is used and interpreted
15:17:28 [fjh]
dom: if we do later need to degrade dependency on webidl to be syntactic only. Prefer former personally
15:17:42 [fjh]
dom: depends on timing
15:18:05 [fjh]
anssik: agree, lets see whether we can get to two implementations
15:20:12 [Zakim]
-anssik
15:20:29 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:20:33 [anssik]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:20:33 [Zakim]
+anssik; got it
15:20:41 [dom]
FJH: this is a question of timing
15:21:02 [dom]
... ideally, the WebIDL interpretation will be fixed in Chrome
15:21:08 [dom]
... when we request to go to PR
15:21:25 [dom]
... Anssi reports there has been progress, maybe we'll get good news soon
15:21:33 [dom]
... let's revisit this in ~ 6 weeks
15:22:10 [dom]
Dom: yeah; we need in any case to get the chargingTime bug fixed
15:22:18 [dom]
... and get the Firefox implementation to align
15:22:52 [dom]
Anssi: there has been a new full time dev associated to this bug in Q1, so that's a positive sign
15:23:04 [dom]
... but it will land when it is ready, hard to estimate
15:23:11 [dom]
... but it's not in the way for us now
15:24:06 [fjh]
fjh: summary of webidl issue is that specs that use it specify properties that can be supported in an implementation allowing the spec to work, but may not be implemented according to the webidl spec. That could be the basis for progressing the work, however it is better to have a conformant webidl implementation and we will first wait for that to be achieved
15:24:44 [fjh]
fjh: is someone helping with Firefox
15:24:54 [dom]
Anssi: I asked about the implementation in Firefox
15:24:54 [fjh]
anssik: marcos indicated that people are looking at the bug
15:25:01 [dom]
... there is some hope that it will move forward
15:25:26 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:25:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:25:28 [dom]
... I'm not sure if the the guy who implemented this works for Mozilla or not
15:25:34 [dom]
... hard to say if and when this will happen
15:25:51 [dom]
fjh: so webidl clearly isn't a very urgent worry
15:25:56 [fjh]
Cordova and Battery API questions, see https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/0043.html
15:26:22 [fjh]
fjh: have not had answer to these
15:26:36 [fjh]
dom: had offlist conversation, confirmed concerns
15:27:33 [fjh]
dom: not high priority
15:28:00 [fjh]
dom: can look to see if can get intern to work on this, google internships program might help
15:28:47 [fjh]
dom: if your company is interested in cordova and aligning, there is a work item you could help with; or also you could co-sponsor an intern, please contact Dom if so
15:29:31 [dom]
Topic: Generic sensor API
15:29:32 [fjh]
github issue discussion reflected on w3c public list, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0018.html
15:29:43 [fjh]
fjh: awaiting update from Tobie
15:29:55 [dom]
Anssi: I talked to Tobie; I hope he'll get bandwidth on this soonish
15:30:04 [dom]
... hopefully within a month or so
15:30:25 [dom]
... he's definitely interested in this, but need to be freed from other work before he can start work
15:30:43 [dom]
... he sounded like he will report back to the group when he makes progress
15:31:03 [dom]
... great idea to enable the notifications of github issues
15:31:08 [fjh]
thanks Dom for creating list notification for github issues
15:31:12 [dom]
... we have activated the same features in a couple of groups
15:31:16 [dom]
... it has been very helpful
15:31:31 [dom]
Topic: Wake Lock API
15:31:33 [fjh]
Wake Lock API published as FPWD, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Feb/0032.html
15:32:24 [fjh]
dom: auto publish is not activated yet, have to submit
15:32:29 [anssik]
q+
15:32:36 [fjh]
dom: later will require conforming to pubrules to publish
15:32:55 [fjh]
q-
15:33:00 [fjh]
ack Andrey_Logvinov
15:33:04 [fjh]
ack anssik
15:33:47 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:33:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:34:32 [fjh]
s/ ackq+//
15:35:05 [fjh]
fjh: want to make sure publishing in TR does not happen with checks
15:35:20 [fjh]
dom: checks are done, including validation, pubrules etc. Cannot accidentally post an image of a cat
15:35:38 [fjh]
I would like to see the answer to Anssi’s question as well about local install, etc
15:35:53 [Zakim]
-anssik
15:36:12 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:36:19 [anssik]
zakim, ??P22 is me
15:36:19 [Zakim]
+anssik; got it
15:36:59 [anssik]
https://github.com/w3c/echidna
15:37:14 [dom]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2015JanMar/0005.html
15:38:54 [dom]
Giri: I think the use cases are still unclear [for sensors?]
15:39:21 [dom]
... Sensor is much broader than geo where we have found difficult to get vendor support
15:39:28 [dom]
... I think use cases would help
15:39:53 [anssik]
q+
15:40:16 [dom]
Dom: FWIW, the sensor API is the a generic sensor API
15:40:32 [dom]
... it's a pattern that can be re-used across the design of several specific sensor API
15:40:56 [dom]
Giri: right; the use cases don't have to be specific to a given sensor, but we need justifications for the choices of a given pattern
15:41:02 [dom]
... I don't think I have seen that yet
15:41:07 [anssik]
q?
15:41:10 [fjh]
q+ to say my sense is sensor API is layered, common basis, then custom specs above common basis
15:41:23 [dom]
... specific examples on how this would be used in specific vertical use cases would help
15:41:53 [fjh]
ack anssik
15:41:58 [anssik]
https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues
15:42:04 [dom]
... this would also lead to clear requirements to which we and others can compare developed APIs
15:42:17 [dom]
anssi: the issues identified in existing APIs have been documented as github issues
15:42:38 [dom]
... this effort is an attempt to fix them through a generic pattern
15:42:55 [fjh]
ack fjh
15:42:55 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to say my sense is sensor API is layered, common basis, then custom specs above common basis
15:43:00 [dom]
... I think the work that has been done in issues is the ground work for use cases and requirements
15:43:16 [dom]
... I don't know if we want to do the full-blown work of use cases and requirements, or instead a lightweight doc
15:43:51 [dom]
Giri: I think the question is that we need commitments from vendors that are not involved in the day to day activity
15:44:05 [dom]
... right now the only ref for sensors is an outdated DAP draft
15:44:11 [dom]
... I've looked at the GH issues
15:44:33 [dom]
FJH: I think publishing an note with the right content would make it much easier for other people to get familiar with our efforts
15:44:43 [dom]
... I think Giri is right we need to make this more usable
15:45:06 [dom]
Anssi: let's discuss with Tobie how to publish these conclusions once he's around
15:45:20 [dom]
... it seems reasonable to publish a state of the art
15:45:33 [dom]
FJH: I think publishing it as a note gives it more standing and visibility
15:45:36 [dom]
... that has merits
15:45:59 [dom]
Anssi: we might have the use cases and requirements as one section of the overall doc that describes the pattern
15:46:04 [dom]
... that sounds like a plan
15:47:04 [dom]
FJH: Giri is saying we need to get more people on board by stating more clearly what we're trying to do
15:47:06 [anssik]
q+
15:47:17 [dom]
Giri: right; and the standing of the document can help
15:47:35 [fjh]
ack anssik
15:47:54 [dom]
Anssi: Giri, with your Geo chair's hat on, where do we stand on Geo v2, device orientation, and other APIs?
15:47:54 [dom]
... These APIs should benefit from this work
15:48:11 [dom]
Giri: Geo was narrowly scoped to low power geofencing
15:48:24 [dom]
... we decided to do that by extending service worker
15:48:53 [dom]
... there is a pull request to that end in the github repo waiting for editors action
15:49:02 [dom]
... device orientation is a bit more problematic
15:49:27 [dom]
... Rich and Tim have done very good work, but we haven't gotten final commitment from the appropriate vendors
15:49:36 [fjh]
q+ to ask about promises
15:49:43 [dom]
... Tim has been trying to see how this fits in terms of the sensor api
15:50:04 [dom]
.... without the commitment of MS and Apple in this group, it's dangerous to try and expand the scope of this work
15:50:19 [dom]
... my personal inclination is that device orientation stuff be done in the context of this sensor API
15:50:20 [anssik]
q+
15:50:33 [dom]
anssi: thanks, great update giri
15:50:42 [dom]
... Rich was active on the generic sensor repo
15:51:06 [dom]
... the discussion confirmed he wanted to get the API to evolve toward this generic pattern
15:51:39 [Zakim]
-anssik
15:51:42 [dom]
Giri: device orientation has a legacy issue with a lot of code depending on it right now
15:51:54 [dom]
... geofencing doesn't have that issue since it is being built on top of serviceworker
15:52:05 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:52:09 [dom]
s/of service/of the new service/
15:52:11 [fjh]
ack fjh
15:52:11 [Zakim]
fjh, you wanted to ask about promises
15:52:13 [anssik]
zakim, ??P6 is me
15:52:13 [Zakim]
+anssik; got it
15:52:21 [fjh]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jan/0044.html
15:53:51 [anssik]
q+
15:54:00 [fjh]
fjh: the promises issue he mentions is not a specific standardization item for this group, yes
15:54:03 [dom]
Topic: Promises and Cordova
15:54:19 [fjh]
dom: yes though it will depend on the degree of linkage with Cordova
15:54:22 [fjh]
ack anssik
15:54:31 [dom]
Anssi: Promises are ecmascript 6 features
15:54:43 [dom]
... we should not have any worry with them
15:54:49 [dom]
FJH: it's a timing issue
15:55:02 [dom]
Anssi: eventually, when webviews get updated to include modern JS engines
15:55:21 [dom]
... Webviews are getting better and better
15:55:35 [fjh]
fjh: so issue should solve itself
15:55:45 [dom]
Anssi: Time will solve this problem
15:56:34 [dom]
Anssi: back to Geo and sensors
15:56:56 [dom]
... Giri, did you say that device orientation or geo v2 could adopt or be influenced by the sensor work
15:57:16 [dom]
Giri: as far as device orientation is concerned, there are legacy implementations in the browser
15:57:24 [dom]
... to significant change the API surface is going to be difficult
15:57:32 [dom]
s/cant/cantly/
15:57:43 [dom]
... unclear how browser vendors would react to such a change at this point
15:57:54 [dom]
... a clean break might be a path of least resistance
15:58:13 [dom]
... For geo, the way we get around this has been to move geofencing to out-of-thread service worker
15:58:20 [dom]
... leaving the original geo API untouched
15:58:27 [dom]
... That's not really an option in device orientation
15:58:54 [fjh]
Thank you dom for scribing
15:59:16 [Zakim]
-dom
16:00:03 [Zakim]
-gmandyam
16:00:05 [Zakim]
-Andrey_Logvinov
16:00:07 [Zakim]
-anssik
16:00:25 [fjh]
anssik: request that we include geolocation coordination with generic sensor API as part of that discussion
16:00:47 [fjh]
fjh: when we have report from Tobie we should include related liaison efforts and impacts
16:00:49 [fjh]
thanks all
16:00:52 [fjh]
Topic: Adjourn
16:00:57 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate mintues
16:00:57 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'generate mintues', fjh. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:01:00 [Zakim]
-fjh
16:01:01 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
16:01:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were gmandyam, fjh, dom, Andrey_Logvinov, anssik
16:01:06 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:01:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:01:39 [fjh]
s/liaison//
16:02:14 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:02:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:04:05 [fjh_]
fjh_ has joined #dap
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rrsagent, generate minutes
16:04:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh_
16:04:43 [fjh_]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:04:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/19-dap-minutes.html fjh_
18:16:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dap