18:00:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:00:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/16-aria-apg-irc
18:00:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:00:09 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:00:11 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:00:11 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
18:00:12 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:00:12 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2015
18:00:19 <jamesn> rrsagent, make logs world
18:00:32 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
18:00:33 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices TF
18:00:44 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
18:01:03 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
18:01:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen
18:01:05 <Zakim> +Ann_Abbott
18:01:33 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:01:35 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria-apg
18:01:37 <jamesn> Agenda+ tooltip http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
18:01:52 <jamesn> Agenda+ alert http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#alert
18:02:03 <jamesn> Agenda+ windowsplitter http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitter
18:02:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:04:50 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
18:04:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Ann_Abbott, [IPcaller]
18:05:18 <jamesn> zakim, IPcaller is Leonie_Watson
18:05:18 <Zakim> +Leonie_Watson; got it
18:07:18 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:08:33 <jamesn> regrets+ Birkir
18:10:03 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:10:46 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
18:11:00 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #aria-apg
18:11:26 <jamesn> zakim, pick a victim
18:11:26 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Bryan_Garaventa
18:11:27 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:11:28 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
18:11:45 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
18:11:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Ann_Abbott, Leonie_Watson, Bryan_Garaventa
18:12:06 <jamesn> scribe: annabbott
18:12:19 <jamesn> zakim, take up item 1
18:12:19 <Zakim> agendum 1. "tooltip http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip" taken up [from jamesn]
18:13:27 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
18:13:27 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:13:28 <Zakim> 1. tooltip http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip [from jamesn]
18:13:28 <Zakim> 2. alert http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#alert [from jamesn]
18:13:28 <Zakim> 3. windowsplitter http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#windowsplitter [from jamesn]
18:13:50 <annabbott> Matt: 3 places in guide address tooltip
18:14:38 <mattking> 3.2.6.1. Supporting Tooltips with the Keyboard
18:14:40 <mattking> 
18:14:41 <mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_tooltips
18:15:10 <mattking> 4.1.2.2. Using a tooltip as a description
18:15:11 <mattking> 
18:15:13 <mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#Descriptions_tooltip
18:15:55 <annabbott> Matt: above two are outside design patterns, useful but doesn't see why it isn't all incorporated into design pattern
18:16:19 <annabbott> Matt: 4.1 is about Labeling & Describing so understand why it is there
18:16:43 <annabbott> Matt: longer term would like to see shorter text and refer to examples.
18:17:05 <annabbott> James: examples have to include supporting stuff for kbd and describedby
18:17:49 <annabbott> Ann & Leonie: developers need 1 place to find info
18:18:15 <annabbott> James: kbd interaction is important and not relegate that to examples
18:18:38 <annabbott> Matt: agrees however structure now seems awkward
18:18:49 <jamesn> this keyboard example is also way more complex than necessary - http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#kbd_tooltips
18:20:05 <annabbott> Matt: other sections in doc should support design patterns
18:20:30 <annabbott> Matt: explain at a broader level
18:21:18 <annabbott> Matt: look at design pattern for tooltips first
18:21:42 <mattking> design pattern http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#tooltip
18:22:11 <annabbott> Leonie: do they work on mobile?
18:22:33 <annabbott> James: not without doing something special
18:24:04 <annabbott> James: accessible name HTML5 accessibility API mappings - if no accessible name, default to Title.
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18:24:22 <annabbott> Matt: are those mappings condisered normative?
18:24:30 <annabbott> James: don't think so
18:25:13 <annabbott> Leonie: gets mapped to accessible description
18:25:21 <annabbott> James: if not used as accessible name
18:25:33 <annabbott> James: different on per item basis
18:26:21 <annabbott> Matt: for tooltips, are we talking strictly about elements that use the tooltip role?
18:26:31 <annabbott> Bryan: assumes so
18:26:49 <annabbott> Matt: says it is a supplement
18:27:13 <mattking> Popup that displays a description for an element when a user passes over or rests on that element. Supplement to the normal tooltip processing of the user agent. It should popup automatically when the user gives input focus to the widget or element with which it is associated. The tooltip widget can be dismissed by pressing the Escape key or by other methods noted below. The tooltip widget...
18:27:14 <mattking> ...differs from the
18:27:16 <mattking> Dialog (Tooltip)
18:27:17 <mattking>  in that it does not receive focus at any time.  
18:28:09 <annabbott> Matt: doesn't give any idea why it exists
18:28:23 <annabbott> James: doesn't like the description
18:28:46 <annabbott> James: kbd users don't get access
18:29:06 <annabbott> Matt: no way to force browser to display
18:29:19 <annabbott> James: can't force Title to come up
18:29:44 <annabbott> James: drop 'supplement to tooltip"
18:29:51 <annabbott> Group agrees
18:30:07 <annabbott> Matt: need to give idea purpose of tooltip role
18:30:17 <annabbott> Jon: can control placement
18:30:52 <annabbott> Jon: authors want to control style, not browser
18:31:15 <annabbott> Jon: would need to script to control tooltips
18:31:31 <annabbott> Matt: should start out with explanation on use
18:32:04 <annabbott> Matt: authors should use tooltips whenever the title attribute doesn't provide adequate control
18:32:21 <annabbott> Jon: cautions against tying to specific browsers
18:32:43 <annabbott> Matt: have role that does what browser does
18:33:40 <annabbott> James: tooltip doesn't receive focus vs dialog tooltip
18:34:12 <annabbott> James: not really a dialog because it acts like a tooltip
18:34:30 <annabbott> Bryan: acts like popup
18:34:52 <annabbott> James: like popup help - what's the difference?
18:35:08 <annabbott> James: F6 moves between panes
18:35:20 <annabbott> Matt: not in favor of special keystrokes
18:36:11 <annabbott> James: maybe tooltip should never have focusable content
18:36:31 <annabbott> James: if focusable content, use dialog tooltip
18:37:33 <annabbott> Matt: not fond of "resting" or "pass over"
18:38:01 <annabbott> Matt: use "place focus" instead of "resting"
18:38:29 <annabbott> Matt: use "hover" instead of "pass over"
18:38:36 <annabbott> Matt: no mention of delay
18:39:25 <annabbott> Matt: users don't want lots of tips appearing - makes them dizzy
18:40:17 <annabbott> James: doesn't think it needs to be specified
18:40:31 <annabbott> Matt: language seems to make it "have to"
18:40:45 <annabbott> James: doesn't say it has to appear immediately
18:40:55 <annabbott> Matt: optionally with delay
18:41:18 <annabbott> Bryan: not just when you mouse over, could be for error handling
18:41:50 <annabbott> Bryan: doesn't agree with making delay required
18:42:11 <annabbott> James: doesn't think we need to address
18:42:51 <annabbott> Jon: can work on examples from OAA into githum and explain delay there
18:43:09 <annabbott> Matt: maybe that's why "rest" was included
18:43:46 <annabbott> James: not talking about modalities, but immediacy of feedback
18:44:06 <annabbott> James: thinks it is usability and usability folks should choose
18:44:31 <annabbott> Matt: thinks including in examples is important
18:44:55 <annabbott> James: add Note about may/may  not have a delay
18:45:17 <annabbott> James: added to existing bug
18:46:21 <annabbott> Matt: another note about ESCAPE key but says nothing about tooltip - maybe just copied/pasted in
18:46:38 <annabbott> James: re: about last in/first out
18:47:02 <annabbott> James: doesn't want to worksmith note when in multiple places
18:47:16 <annabbott> worksmith = wordsmith
18:47:41 <jamesn> s/worksmith/wordsmith
18:48:32 <annabbott> Matt: if more than one widget uses the same keys - note is about nested widgets
18:49:25 <annabbott> Matt: if a widget nested within another widget uses the same key as its parent
18:49:51 <annabbott> James: only place this note appears
18:50:02 <annabbott> Matt: funny - it was written for grid
18:50:11 <annabbott> James: maybe move to kbd section
18:51:00 <annabbott> James: nested widgets like on a toolbar
18:51:42 <annabbott> Matt: radios in a toolbar wouldn't wrap
18:52:07 <annabbott> James: thinks text is useful but maybe wrong for tooltip
18:52:29 <annabbott> Matt: doesn't like "if more than one widget"
18:52:36 <annabbott> Matt: likes "if nested widgets"
18:52:44 <annabbott> James: will add to bug
18:53:40 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/16-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:56:13 <annabbott> Matt: anything else on tooltips that should be rolled into design pattern
18:56:40 <annabbott> James: describing section seems a bit bizarre
18:56:59 <annabbott> Matt: 3.6.1.2 is about kbd?
18:57:05 <annabbott> James: that's about focus
18:57:12 <annabbott> Matt: needs code snippet
18:57:39 <annabbott> James: example is way to complex
18:58:10 <annabbott> James: strip out nonrelevant stuff
18:58:56 <jamesn> zakim, next item
18:58:56 <Zakim> agendum 2. "alert http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#alert" taken up [from jamesn]
19:00:22 <mattking> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#alert
19:01:12 <mattking> A message with important information 
19:01:19 <mattking> that is all that is in the description
19:02:14 <annabbott> Ann: developers are prone to misuse alerts
19:02:29 <annabbott> Matt: do get over-used and crazy verbose
19:03:07 <annabbott> Bryan: JAWS 16/IE 11 has broken alerts
19:03:59 <annabbott> Ann: JAWS hasn't supported polite vs assertive for a while
19:04:33 <annabbott> Bryan: how alerts are triggered would be useful
19:05:09 <annabbott> Bryan: if positioned off screen then moved on screen, alert won't function
19:05:28 <annabbott> Matt: add info re live regions
19:06:04 <annabbott> James: section 5 or 6 Managing live
19:06:36 <annabbott> Matt: one sentence has caused lots of problems
19:07:40 <mattking> Live regions are parts of a Web page that the author expects to change. Examples of live regions include tables with dynamically updated content (sports stats, stock information), logs where new information is being added (chat transcript logs), notification areas (status, alerts), etc.
19:10:05 <annabbott> James: add what are not live regions
19:13:27 <annabbott> Bryan: devs don't realize that ATs announce all info sounds same.
19:14:11 <annabbott> Bryan: carousel pages are coded as live
19:14:55 <annabbott> James: any change not triggered by a user (background or asyncronous unexpected)
19:15:25 <annabbott> Bryan: alerts are live regions
19:15:52 <annabbott> James: found another section that's better
19:16:04 <jamesn> alert - You must use the alert role for a one-time notification which shows for a period of time and goes away and is intended to alert the user that something has happened. The assistive technology should be notified by the user agent that an alert has occurred, if your operating system supports this type of event notification. When choosing to use alert you should use the alertdialog role instead if something inside the alert is to receive focus. Both
19:16:04 <jamesn> alert and alertdialog appear to pop-up to the user to get their attention.
19:16:06 <annabbott> Bryan: tied into OS
19:17:00 <annabbott> Matt: do you (Bryan) have an example?
19:17:35 <jamesn> http://whatsock.com/training/
19:19:53 <annabbott> Jon: are alert examples from OAA site examples we want to keep?
19:20:13 <annabbott> Jon:: couple different examples there
19:20:49 <annabbott> James: guessing one isn't a dialog
19:21:11 <annabbott> Jon: there are two
19:21:32 <annabbott> Matt: thinks it is appropriate use of role
19:22:12 <annabbott> James: not really coming up as an alert to sighted users
19:22:33 <annabbott> Matt: appears dynamically but not an overlay
19:22:54 <annabbott> Bryan: purpose to convey something that is important
19:23:13 <annabbott> Matt: timeout is better as dialog
19:23:48 <annabbott> Matt: is the difference just styling
19:24:07 <annabbott> James: doesn't think guessing game is appropriate use
19:24:23 <annabbott> Matt: input error or save message is appropriate
19:24:51 <annabbott> Bryan: same as aria-live=rude (assertive)
19:25:18 <annabbott> Bryan: when focus is moved, alert causes confusion
19:25:43 <annabbott> Matt: general pattern for usage for input errors?
19:25:52 <annabbott> Bryan: hopefully more broad
19:26:15 <annabbott> Bryan: as it interrupts what is being announced
19:26:33 <annabbott> Matt: screen reader use case needed?
19:26:47 <annabbott> Bryan: prefer it to be broad enough
19:27:43 <annabbott> Bryan: in-line error handling where error only appears when Submit is selected
19:28:54 <annabbott> Leonie: when using this pattern it is applicable to only one application at a time
19:29:11 <annabbott> Leonie : it can be a distraction to all users
19:29:29 <annabbott> Matt: so when you need to intentionally distract a user
19:29:50 <annabbott> Matt: without taking control of focus
19:30:13 <annabbott> Matt: state what they are intended for
19:30:47 <annabbott> Matt: bug needed to develop proposal for description
19:31:32 <annabbott> James: in favor of copy/pasting stuff - not sure can satisfy everyone
19:32:01 <annabbott> Bryan: helpful to have link to general live region section and call out differences
19:33:17 <annabbott> Bryan: dev needs to code to spec and not AT behavior
19:33:33 <jamesn> +1000
19:33:49 <annabbott> Bryan: and bugs need to be filed against AT
19:34:01 <Zakim> -Leonie_Watson
19:34:10 <jamesn> zakim, please part
19:34:10 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Ann_Abbott, Leonie_Watson, Bryan_Garaventa
19:34:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
19:34:29 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:34:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/16-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:37:02 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices TF
19:37:02 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:37:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/16-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
19:38:27 <jamesn> s/Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference/ARIA Practices TF/
19:38:30 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
19:38:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/16-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
21:37:39 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aria-apg
22:30:07 <annabbott> James - are you there?