IRC log of aria on 2015-02-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:33:24 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:33:24 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-irc
17:33:26 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs member
17:33:26 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #aria
17:33:28 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
17:33:28 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:33:29 [trackbot]: Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
17:33:29 [trackbot]: Date: 12 February 2015
17:33:34 [MichaelC]: zakim, this is aria
17:33:34 [Zakim]: sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named 'aria' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:33:39 [MichaelC]: zakim, this is 2742
17:33:40 [Zakim]: sorry, MichaelC, I do not see a conference named '2742' in progress or scheduled at this time
17:33:47 [MichaelC]: zakim, list conferences
17:33:47 [Zakim]: I see Team_(wpay)16:59Z active
17:33:48 [asurkov]: asurkov has joined #aria
17:33:49 [Zakim]: also scheduled at this time are DATA_DWBP()12:00PM, HTML_WG()12:00PM, RWC_Audio()12:00PM, XML_XSLWG()11:30AM
17:34:01 [MichaelC]: zakim, room for 25?
17:34:02 [Zakim]: ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(aria)17:34Z scheduled with code 92473 (WAIPF) for 60 minutes until 1834Z
17:34:07 [asurkov]: hi, clown
17:34:14 [clown]: hi asurkov
17:34:17 [clown]: welcome.
17:34:44 [fesch]: code 92473 not 2742?
17:34:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]: richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
17:35:12 [Zakim]: Team_(aria)17:34Z has now started
17:35:20 [Zakim]: +[GVoice]
17:35:46 [Zakim]: +fesch
17:35:58 [Zakim]: +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:36:04 [clown]: zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:04 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:36:12 [clown]: zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:12 [Zakim]: ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:36:23 [Zakim]: +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:36:31 [jamesn]: jamesn has joined #aria
17:37:19 [jamesn]: I get the conference is restricted at this time
17:37:23 [mattking]: mattking has joined #aria
17:37:33 [fesch]: use 92473
17:37:45 [Zakim]: +??P7
17:37:55 [Zakim]: +James_Nurthen
17:37:58 [jamesn]: jamesn has changed the topic to: ARIA Teleconference; Thursday 12 February at 16:30; Zakim 92473#
17:38:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0019.html
17:38:16 [Zakim]: +??P10
17:38:44 [mattking]: zakim is telling me the conference is restricted
17:38:52 [mattking]: i can not get in on phone
17:38:54 [jamesn]: mattking - use 92473
17:39:08 [fesch]: rich I can scribe
17:39:17 [fesch]: scribe: fesch
17:39:21 [Zakim]: +Matt_King
17:39:23 [richardschwerdtfeger]: chair: Rich
17:39:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]: meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
17:39:39 [richardschwerdtfeger]: RRSAgent, make log public
17:40:34 [fesch]: all - you can use 92473 to get in the call
17:40:58 [fesch]: Topic: aria-current
17:41:15 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current
17:41:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]: - http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current
17:41:52 [fesch]: mk: took an action for alternative text for a note - to better clarify current vs selected - not quite done yet
17:42:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-current
17:43:04 [fesch]: rs: matt will put in updated note and we can discuss next week if needed
17:43:17 [fesch]: action-1561
17:43:17 [trackbot]: action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:43:17 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1561
17:43:46 [fesch]: rs: needs Cynthia for 1561
17:44:35 [jongund]: jongund has joined #aria
17:45:13 [Zakim]: +Jon_Gunderson
17:45:49 [fesch]: Topic: Table Support
17:45:56 [clown]: action-1395
17:45:57 [trackbot]: action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
17:45:57 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
17:46:15 [clown]: action-1293
17:46:15 [trackbot]: action-1293 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:46:15 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
17:46:40 [fesch]: jd: lots of discussion on row index and column index....
17:46:49 [fesch]: rs: what is the main issue?
17:47:12 [fesch]: mk: people don't agree on the main purpose of rowindex and columnindex
17:47:17 [clown]: issue-398?
17:47:17 [trackbot]: issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- closed
17:47:17 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398
17:47:58 [fesch]: rs: describes use case of rowindex columnindex
17:48:44 [fesch]: rs: wants something similar to pause and...
17:49:05 [fesch]: mk: colindex had a more confusing use case
17:49:23 [joanie]: s/pause and.../posinset and setsize/
17:49:29 [fesch]: rs: what was the confusion
17:49:49 [Zakim]: +Bryan_Garaventa
17:50:37 [clown]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0049.html
17:50:57 [clown]: thread starts there ^
17:51:26 [bgaraventa1979]: bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
17:51:34 [fesch]: rs: not rowspan and colspan, so what appears to be missing is the number of rows and number of columns
17:52:03 [bgaraventa1979]: zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
17:52:03 [Zakim]: ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
17:52:31 [fesch]: jd: if I think of spread sheets, you can freeze and hide rows and columns
17:52:55 [fesch]: jd: believes this belongs on the cells - Alex doesn't
17:54:08 [fesch]: jd: believes colindex belongs on cells, didn't care about rowindex
17:54:19 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:54:33 [jamesn]: cellindex should be on gridcell
17:54:41 [cyns]: cyns has joined #aria
17:54:42 [fesch]: mk: is this going to be defined as an attribute?
17:54:43 [jamesn]: rowindex should be on row or gridcell
17:57:07 [fesch]: rs: will take an action to provide more detail, it matters where as it can bloat dowload
17:58:20 [fesch]: mk: doesn't see how ownership will work
17:58:53 [fesch]: jd: what if I want to mark up a data table, a colindex can only go on a cell
17:59:09 [fesch]: jn: what if you put it on the column header?
17:59:21 [fesch]: jd: Oh sure, that is fine
17:59:59 [jamesn]: allow both on the cell but also allow rowindex on row and colindex on the columnheader for convenience
18:00:11 [fesch]: mk: it only works if you have a correct 1:1 mapping, so if someone does something where there is a multicell labeling structure, then you would make sure it gets assigned to the correct one
18:01:14 [fesch]: mk: if you put it on a 1:1 cells that will work, but if there are 2 numbers under a column - and you get these wonky structures
18:01:39 [fesch]: rs: you could put the colindex in the cell, then have it span cells, at the cell level
18:01:51 [fesch]: rs: would we do the same thing for rowindex
18:02:11 [jamesn]: Janina - 92473
18:02:19 [janina]: OK
18:02:39 [Zakim]: +??P19
18:02:44 [janina]: zakim, ??P19 is me
18:02:46 [Zakim]: +janina; got it
18:03:11 [fesch]: rs: the important thing is the rowindex or colindex of the start - so if they span 3...
18:03:39 [newtron]: newtron has joined #aria
18:04:16 [clown]: rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-colspan
18:04:28 [fesch]: mk: in spereadsheets one dimension is numbered and one is lettered, so these are always numeric - or do the authors have control over number vs letter?
18:04:42 [fesch]: mk: does the value always have to be a number?
18:04:58 [asurkov]: I think I like to have separate attributes for row/column spans
18:05:01 [fesch]: rs: if it was just a string might be a challenge
18:05:03 [Zakim]: +Susann_Keohane
18:05:14 [Susann_Keohane]: Susann_Keohane has joined #aria
18:05:43 [fesch]: jd: potentially headers have a different properties, there are things that allow roman numerals and we can follow it
18:05:43 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#details-id-170
18:05:53 [fesch]: mk: sort of like a styling thing
18:06:15 [fesch]: jd: without deep diving.... (starts deep diving)...
18:06:44 [fesch]: jn: if they display on the screen they are similar to row headers
18:07:00 [fesch]: mk: they are different
18:07:47 [fesch]: rs: important to have a span and have them relate to the start, no notion of a column in HTML 5
18:08:15 [fesch]: rs: we have a rowindex which is the start of the row, and a colindex and max
18:08:29 [fesch]: jn: what does max mean?
18:08:33 [clown]: aria-rowsize and aria-colsize?
18:08:52 [asurkov]: maybe rowcount?
18:08:58 [fesch]: rs: like aria-setsize and aria-posinset
18:09:33 [fesch]: mk: do we want such a long attribute name - if you are putting on every cell
18:10:13 [fesch]: action-1293
18:10:13 [trackbot]: action-1293 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-colindex to role gridcell and aria-rowindex to role row -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:10:13 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1293
18:10:15 [clown]: issue-398?
18:10:15 [trackbot]: issue-398 -- Errata: aria-setsize and aria-posinset should apply to more than just listitem and option -- closed
18:10:15 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/398
18:10:29 [fesch]: rs: taking action 1293
18:11:06 [clown]: action-1395
18:11:06 [trackbot]: action-1395 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. -- due 2015-02-12 -- OPEN
18:11:06 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1395
18:11:16 [fesch]: jd: will turn the table stuff into a branch
18:11:51 [fesch]: jg: some elements proposed were eliminated
18:12:19 [fesch]: mk: count for last value, not max
18:12:42 [fesch]: Action-1362
18:12:42 [trackbot]: Action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN
18:12:42 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
18:13:13 [fesch]: Topic: handling of generic roles
18:13:23 [fesch]: action-1561
18:13:23 [trackbot]: action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:13:23 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1561
18:13:38 [mattking]: action-1561?
18:13:38 [trackbot]: action-1561 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Write up proposal for generic section role mappings to deal with div, role=“region”, and role=“group” confusion in the mappings -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
18:13:38 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1561
18:13:40 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0104.html
18:14:37 [fesch]: rs: has proposal - map a div to a section, just a container, we are overusing group
18:14:59 [fesch]: rs: list items use group on MacOS
18:15:14 [fesch]: CS: we don't have control types
18:15:24 [fesch]: rs: we need something generic
18:15:37 [fesch]: cs: we may need to accept group has become generic
18:16:06 [fesch]: mk: worry about existing implementations, but might fix some issues
18:16:23 [fesch]: mk: people use group where it makes noise
18:16:35 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
18:16:57 [fesch]: cs: big legacy of our mapping, narrator ignores group
18:17:07 [LJWatson]: zakim, who is on ehe phone?
18:17:07 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, LJWatson.
18:17:13 [fesch]: rs: reads section of action
18:17:21 [LJWatson]: zakim, who is on the phone?
18:17:21 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Joseph_Scheuhammer, fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joanmarie_Diggs, ??P7, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper (muted), Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa,
18:17:24 [Zakim]: ... [Microsoft], janina, Susann_Keohane, [IPcaller]
18:17:37 [LJWatson]: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:17:37 [Zakim]: +LJWatson; got it
18:17:55 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
18:18:44 [fesch]: mk: reading group children
18:19:03 [fesch]: rs: when we use role=group now, where are we using it?
18:19:20 [fesch]: rs: are we using it for radio group?
18:19:23 [clown]: http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#radiogroup
18:20:06 [fesch]: mk: if you generize group, it won't affect it's children
18:20:15 [jamesn]: it is a generic replacement for fieldset/legend too
18:20:51 [fesch]: rs: when you encounter group, do you expose group?
18:21:02 [fesch]: cs: IE exposes group, narrator ignores it
18:21:26 [fesch]: cs: a list is used a list - we treat lists and groups differently
18:21:30 [fesch]: too late
18:21:52 [fesch]: cs: we expose fieldset - which has a visual rendering
18:22:07 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-fieldset
18:22:15 [fesch]: cs: windows forms has them too
18:23:02 [fesch]: jn: fieldset maps to group for everybody but ATK
18:23:30 [clown]: s/jn: fieldset maps to group/js: fieldset maps to group/
18:23:35 [fesch]: cs: narrator does read groups in some cases, but it may have to deal with focusability ..
18:23:53 [fesch]: cs: willing to tweak behavior
18:24:51 [fesch]: rs: making generic takes care of legacy, but if you put it on a table, everything in the table comes out as groups
18:25:12 [fesch]: jd: a panel is a generic group of widgets
18:25:50 [fesch]: rs: want to be consistent, when you have a generic container with no label - want one mapping across implementations
18:27:28 [fesch]: rs: typically in SVG drawing attributes don't map, but if you make it significant - maybe by putting text on it... then we would like one consistent mapping between HTML and SVG
18:27:33 [clown]: https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#AtkRole
18:28:23 [fesch]: jd: we in ATK ... we solved xxxx by putting in role ATK_Static, worried that you will ruin stuff for us when we don't have a problem
18:28:38 [fesch]: mk: how does a div map in ATK?
18:28:52 [fesch]: chorus: role section
18:30:19 [fesch]: mk: want consistent role mapped for div and section
18:30:31 [fesch]: rs: what is confusing to me is panel and section
18:30:42 [fesch]: js: no they are different
18:31:19 [fesch]: mk: what we may want to come up with another aria role that maps to panel in ATK...
18:31:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
18:32:14 [fesch]: jd: if texty stuff maps to group and widgety stuff maps to panel I am happy
18:32:25 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-form
18:33:15 [fesch]: cs: on windows the pane role is a good one for widgety stuff
18:33:34 [fesch]: jd: your pane is our panel (NO PUNS)
18:33:54 [cyns]: UIA pane from MSDN "The Pane control type is used to represent an object within a frame or document window. Users can navigate between pane controls and within the contents of the current pane, but cannot navigate between items in different panes. Thus, pane controls represent a level of grouping lower than windows or documents, but above individual controls. The user navigates between panes by pressing TAB, F6, or CTRL+TAB, depending on the context.
18:34:11 [cyns]: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671639(v=vs.85).aspx
18:34:13 [fesch]: mk: a problem with apple is both meaningful groups and non meaningful groups are mapped to groups
18:34:54 [fesch]: jd: apple is missing a subrole for list, may need a couple more subroles
18:35:10 [fesch]: rs: may need to create a panel role
18:35:34 [fesch]: mk: a lot of misuse of group is when we didn't have a better way
18:35:45 [fesch]: mk: need role for span
18:36:23 [fesch]: CS: when we were talking about annotations may have discussed it
18:36:26 [Zakim]: -[Microsoft]
18:37:13 [cyns]: the network knew I was talking ;)
18:37:19 [richardschwerdtfeger]: :-)
18:37:27 [fesch]: mk: can't finish this actionw without a mapping for span
18:37:33 [clown]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-span
18:37:35 [cyns]: I think we may have covered the "span" thing when discussing annotations
18:37:51 [fesch]: mk: can't map span to same thing as div
18:38:30 [fesch]: jd: span needs to be updated for ATK
18:38:58 [fesch]: rs: do we agree we need some sort of panel role?
18:39:33 [cyns]: generally, yes. Why call it panel an not pane?
18:39:40 [fesch]: mk: where does it go in the hieracrhy?
18:39:47 [richardschwerdtfeger]: action: joanie create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic
18:39:48 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-1581 - Create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-02-19].
18:39:50 [cyns]: just to be platform-agnostic for a moment...
18:40:03 [fesch]: mk: is panel the right name for this?
18:40:26 [fesch]: mk: does tabpanel have children?
18:41:00 [fesch]: mk: should the new panel be a child of section and children of group move over to panel.
18:41:19 [fesch]: mk: rename group to panel.. and make a new role group
18:41:36 [fesch]: rs: can JD make a branch?
18:43:00 [LJWatson]: http://bkardell.github.io/common-panel/
18:43:08 [fesch]: lw: can i mention the panel work?
18:43:42 [fesch]: lw: looking at a panel as a native HTML concept,
18:43:56 [clown]: "On it's own, a panel may be used anywhere sectioning content is used, it is granted an aria-role="group"."
18:44:19 [fesch]: lw: have a single HTML architecture that can be dispalyed in multiple ways - which we currently use widgets for
18:44:23 [jamesn]: sounds like a good idea
18:44:53 [fesch]: lw: a single panel seems weak
18:45:10 [fesch]: lw: important thing is getting a native HTML element
18:46:06 [fesch]: jd: lets work together...
18:46:22 [fesch]: jd & lw will coordinate
18:47:49 [clown]: action-1362
18:47:49 [trackbot]: action-1362 -- James Craig to Patch issue-640: aria-hasmanagedfocus -- due 2015-01-29 -- OPEN
18:47:49 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1362
18:47:56 [clown]: issue-640
18:47:56 [trackbot]: issue-640 -- Investigate aria-hasmanagedfocus to indicate whether a region manages focus to enable complex widgets -- open
18:47:56 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/640
18:47:57 [fesch]: mk: wants to discuss aria-hasmangedfocus
18:48:04 [jongund]: jongund has joined #aria
18:48:24 [fesch]: rs: would like to make a list interactive and use arrow keys
18:48:39 [fesch]: mk: proposes a separate role
18:48:58 [fesch]: mk: big problem with an attribute when it gets to AT,
18:49:02 [fesch]: rs: why?
18:49:46 [fesch]: mk: may be ok if limited to a narrow group of roles ( list) which gives ability for list view and tree view
18:49:58 [fesch]: jn: lets not limit it
18:50:48 [fesch]: mk: all the name is saying that there is managed interaction on a static structure.
18:51:14 [fesch]: jn: using role of application is hacky,
18:51:55 [fesch]: mk: roles communicate interaction and
18:52:21 [fesch]: bg: is that like a modality?
18:52:38 [fesch]: mk: application does not give the user any idea what the interaction might be
18:52:53 [fesch]: mk: hasmangedfocus is a solution looking for a problem
18:53:10 [fesch]: jn: we have a ton of places where we need this
18:53:55 [fesch]: mk: maybe we need additional application roles, but application role is problematic for AT as it doesn't tell you about interactiviyt
18:56:31 [fesch]: mk: a toolbar should have multiple inheritance,
18:56:52 [fesch]: rs: list normally does not have arrow key navigation, you may want that
18:57:16 [fesch]: mk: should solve that with a role that inherits from widget
18:57:44 [fesch]: mk: if we have widget role, it should not map to a static element
18:58:17 [fesch]: jn: there are cases where we don't have the appropriate role - like a widget role, or listbox, which is hacky and cheesy
18:58:47 [fesch]: bg: has use cases where this important, one case where there is no role for columns
18:58:55 [fesch]: bg: problems with grids as well
18:59:23 [fesch]: bg: if need a modality of different widget types, that might be a valuable use case
18:59:39 [fesch]: bg: may have a widget that does two things at one time.
19:00:02 [fesch]: bg: task was able to make it accessible
19:00:43 [fesch]: bg: solved using role=application
19:01:01 [Zakim]: -Jon_Gunderson
19:03:01 [fesch]: mk: as a general principle that we would take a semantic of documents and turn them into a role-less widget. leave HTML semantics out of it.
19:03:40 [fesch]: rrsagent, draft minutes
19:03:40 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/12-aria-minutes.html fesch
19:04:22 [Zakim]: -James_Nurthen
19:04:24 [Zakim]: -??P7
19:04:35 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
19:04:41 [Zakim]: -fesch
19:04:49 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:04:50 [Zakim]: -janina
19:04:50 [Zakim]: -Matt_King
19:04:52 [Zakim]: -Bryan_Garaventa
19:04:52 [Zakim]: -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:04:53 [Zakim]: -Joanmarie_Diggs
19:04:55 [Zakim]: -LJWatson
19:09:55 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, Susann_Keohane, in Team_(aria)17:34Z
19:09:57 [Zakim]: Team_(aria)17:34Z has ended
19:09:57 [Zakim]: Attendees were fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, James_Nurthen, Michael_Cooper, Matt_King, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, [Microsoft], janina,
19:09:57 [Zakim]: ... Susann_Keohane, LJWatson
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