JS: James Craig passed it on Safari with AXGroup. 20:25:38 (Group concludes we need to revisit this test and its results) 20:26:07 RS: I think we're at the point that we need to decide what we want to do. 20:26:16 RS: If it's not going to provide anything of value, it shouldn't map. 20:26:31 RS: We can all fix it. We can pull it out of Firefox. Or.... 20:26:44 RS: It's confusing. If you put a section role in the middle of a grid, it's goofy. 20:26:59 RS: The problem happens if you put a label on it, though I don't know why you would do that. 20:27:11 davidb__ has joined #aapi 20:27:22 CS: It almost feels like a property. I know it's a role, but it shows membership. 20:27:34 CS: UIA does a lot with properties, rather than roles. 20:27:42 +??P5 20:27:45 JS: It corresponds to elements like thead and tbody. 20:27:59 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-tbody 20:28:03 JS: These map to group. See above link. 20:28:16 JS: ATK doesn't have an accessible though. That's consistent with the core. 20:28:29 JS: MSAA/IA2 also doesn't have a mapping, for tbody. 20:28:51 RS: I don't see why we need a mapping. 20:29:09 CS: So you're saying we shouldn't have an accessible for this? And what would that do for tables that have them? 20:29:31 CS: I know there are some people in certain accessibility-related circles who find these useful. 20:29:46 CS: So we might wish to get wider feedback on this. 20:30:00 RS: If you tell them they aren't mapped, will they know what that means? 20:30:07 CS: Uncertain. 20:30:19 -David_Bolter.a 20:30:59 CS: (Reiterates need to get wider feedback) 20:31:18 RS: I see table being used less and less because it doesn't tend to flow well. 20:31:29 RS: If you want to run this by WCAG we certainly can. 20:31:43 CS: Michael is in WCAG. 20:31:53 JS: Is it worth bringing up at the full ARIA meeting? 20:31:58 RS: We could. 20:32:12 JS: We can add it to the overall "group" issue and discussion. 20:32:48 RS: Give me an issue related to not mapping rowgroup, tbody, and thead. 20:32:49 issue: Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in AAPIs 20:32:50 Created ISSUE-700 - Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis. Please complete additional details at . 20:33:01 DB: You want it taken out of the tree? 20:33:04 JS: Yes. 20:33:18 RS: If somone puts a tabindex on it, what do we want to call it? 20:33:39 CS: If you put that on the object that's already in the tree, what happens? 20:34:30 CS: If you put role="rowgroup" on something, does it act like presentation, or is it ignored? 20:34:55 RS: What would that hurt if it's taken out of the tree? 20:35:20 CS: It's weird if people think they're adding semantics (via the role), but we're taking it out of the tree/ignoring it. 20:35:59 RS: And we'd fallback on native host language semantics. 20:36:21 CS: It will still be there in the DOM and object attributes. 20:36:22 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700 20:37:09 RS: Thanks for the issue, please also give me an action. 20:37:30 action: rich to discuss issue-700 in ARIA task force meeting. 20:37:31 Created ACTION-1578 - Discuss issue-700 in aria task force meeting. [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-02-17]. 20:37:39 action-1578 20:37:39 action-1578 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-700 in aria task force meeting. -- due 2015-02-17 -- OPEN 20:37:39 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578 20:39:00 Zakim, take up item 3 20:39:00 agendum 3. "ACTION-1309: (Cynthia) MSAA+UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-colindex and aria-rowindex." taken up [from clown] 20:39:14 action-1309 20:39:14 action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress and uia. -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN 20:39:14 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309 20:39:14 -Joseph_Scheuhammer 20:39:19 action-1309? 20:39:19 action-1309 -- Cynthia Shelly to Determine the best place to map aria-colindex and aria-rowindex for msaa+uiexpress and uia. -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN 20:39:19 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1309 20:39:29 -??P5 20:40:27 +[GVoice] 20:40:40 zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer 20:40:40 +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it 20:40:46 zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer 20:40:46 ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer 20:41:15 JS: This is a hot topic on the list, where to put aria-colindex and aria-rowindex in the markup. 20:41:23 JS: Some people say on the individual cells, some on the rows. 20:41:37 JS: I think what this action really is, is asking what the mapping would be. 20:41:43 JS: But maybe we're premature 20:42:22 JD: I know what the mapping is for ATK/AT-SPI2 regardless of where it belongs in the spec. 20:42:33 JD: But I don't know if this is true for others. 20:42:49 JS: I was hesitant because of all the discussion on the list about the ARIA property. 20:43:18 CS: This is kind of related to the last one (grids and tables). 20:43:31 CS: We do have a table pattern now, so I need to look and see if they make sense in there. 20:44:08 CS: This one we have to move out further. After CSUN. 20:44:26 JS: I'll put it for the 10th of March. 20:44:57 Zakim, take up item 4 20:44:57 agendum 4. "ACTION-1445: (Cynthia) UIA mappings for role presentation in tables and lists." taken up [from clown] 20:45:10 action-1444? 20:45:10 action-1444 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Update atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 20:45:10 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444 20:45:16 action-1445? 20:45:16 action-1445 -- Cynthia Shelly to Investigate the ideal uai mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2015-01-20 -- PENDINGREVIEW 20:45:16 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1445 20:45:36 JS: I did some related work on this. 20:45:41 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation 20:45:49 JS: The above URL has what I did. 20:46:11 JS: For both UIA, I put "expose using the text pattern" 20:46:21 If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose using the text pattern. In particular, this applies to cells within a table or grid with role="presentation", and to list items within a list with role="presentation". 20:46:21 s/both UIA/UIA/ 20:46:39 JS: I added a sentence about the table and list. 20:46:56 JS: So the grid cells and list items become objects that expose the text pattern. 20:47:03 CS: If they are in the tree. 20:47:14 CS: That's confusing, because presentation takes them out of the tree. 20:47:24 JS: It takes the grid out, but not the cell, right? 20:47:34 If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose as ROLE_SECTION. In particular, this applies to cells within a table or grid with role="presentation", and to list items within a list with role="presentation". 20:47:39 CS: OK, I think this is right, though it is kind of confusing. 20:47:58 CS: It's not the wording that is confusing; it's the concept. 20:48:10 JS: (Reads the text associated with ATK) 20:48:24 JS: All the cells become ROLE_SECTION 20:49:03 CS: I don't think we do that (treat them like divs, so they're all separate) 20:49:08 CS: What do you think is better? 20:50:02 JD: We did this deliberately for ATK. 20:50:28 JD: The idea is that they are separate, distinct text objects that should not be run together by the screen reader. 20:50:35 CS: I don't have strong feelings either way. 20:50:56 JS: Before they were a giant blob of text and people complained. 20:51:01 RS: We heard the same. 20:51:09 CS: Ok, then make them groups. 20:51:20 If the object is in the accessibility tree, expose using the GROUP role, using the text pattern. 20:52:24 (Group discussed above proposed text) 20:52:29 … 20:52:58 JS: If you have the above, what happens to the table itself? 20:53:08 https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=1 20:53:10 RS: I think we have a test for this in the test suite. 20:54:06 CS: I'm not seeing anything that's specifically a table. 20:55:07 CS: (Makes a quick test) 20:56:03 JS: We have close to 900 tests, but not one with role="presentation" on it. 20:58:13 s/not one/not a table/ 20:58:35 RRSAgent, make minutes 20:58:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-minutes.html joanie 21:00:23 CS: I created a file. It looks like IE is removing it altogether, but not its children. 21:01:11 JS: Can you mail that test file to us. 21:01:13 CS: Sure. 21:01:32 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger 21:01:34 -[Microsoft] 21:01:51 http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation 21:06:54 -Joanmarie_Diggs 21:06:56 -Joseph_Scheuhammer 21:06:56 WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has ended 21:06:56 Attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, David_Bolter, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [Microsoft] 21:07:13 Zakim, part 21:07:13 Zakim has left #aapi 21:07:36 present+ Cynthia_Shelly 21:07:48 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:07:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-minutes.html joanie 21:08:11 present- [Microsoft] 21:08:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 21:08:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/10-aapi-minutes.html joanie 21:08:37 RRSAgent, stop