IRC log of ua on 2015-02-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:24:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:24:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-irc
17:24:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:24:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:24:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:24:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
17:24:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:24:07 [trackbot]
Date: 05 February 2015
17:24:42 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:24:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:25:08 [allanj]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:25:30 [allanj]
chair: JimAllan
17:26:04 [allanj]
agenda+ Survey for approval of Mobile Accessibility Task Force FPWD Note https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20150203/
17:26:16 [allanj]
agenda+ GL 4 comments (4.1.4, 4.1.5)
17:26:30 [allanj]
Agenda+ ACTION-1051
18:02:25 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:02:32 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:03:04 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:03:14 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:03:29 [allanj]
scribe: allanj
18:03:31 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:03:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
18:04:29 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:04:31 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:05:02 [Zakim]
+Greg_Lowney
18:05:14 [Jan]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
18:05:14 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:10:48 [allanj]
zakim, agenda?
18:10:48 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:10:49 [Zakim]
1. Survey for approval of Mobile Accessibility Task Force FPWD Note https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20150203/ [from allanj]
18:10:49 [Zakim]
2. GL 4 comments (4.1.4, 4.1.5) [from allanj]
18:10:49 [Zakim]
3. ACTION-1051 [from allanj]
18:11:34 [allanj]
Topic: Mobile taskforce survey
18:11:41 [allanj]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20150203/results
18:13:21 [jeanne]
Mobile Accessibility: How WCAG 2.0 and Other W3C-WAI Guidelines Apply to Mobile
18:13:48 [allanj]
new title - Mobile Accessibility: How WCAG 2.0 and Other W3C-WAI Guidelines Apply to Mobile
18:14:56 [allanj]
js: we could review document and add in UAAG20 SCs
18:16:23 [Greg]
Very minor, but I thought the section "A user agent that follows UAAG 2.0 will improve accessibility through its own user interface and through its ability to communicate with other technologies, including assistive technologies." to "A user agent that follows UAAG 2.0 will improve accessibility through its own user interface, *through options it provides for rendering and interacting with...
18:16:24 [Greg]
...content,* and through its ability to communicate with other technologies, including assistive technologies."
18:18:14 [Greg]
I thought they mischaracterized UAAG20 a little bit there.
18:19:52 [jeanne]
public-mobile-a11y-tf@w3.org
18:22:06 [allanj]
Topic: comment MS06 on 4.1.4 Action-1065
18:27:52 [allanj]
jr: we don't have the expertise to test this.
18:28:12 [allanj]
gl: read documentation, or write to manufacturer and find out
18:29:01 [allanj]
jr: how much of the DOM is enough?
18:29:22 [allanj]
... happy with AA, no strong objection
18:29:51 [allanj]
gl: want UAs to support ARIA, info is exposed in the DOM
18:30:13 [allanj]
gl: DOM is important
18:30:26 [Jan]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0080.html
18:32:40 [jeanne]
zakim, unmute me
18:32:40 [Zakim]
Jeanne was not muted, jeanne
18:32:46 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:33:14 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:34:55 [allanj]
ja: can UAWG just say we disagree.
18:36:41 [allanj]
wording from pf
18:36:43 [allanj]
4.1.4 Make DOMs Programmatically Available: If the user agent implements one or more Document Object Models (DOM), they must be made programmatically available to assistive technologies, but no more than any other (non-assistive) technology's programmatic access to the DOM.
18:37:10 [allanj]
jr: does DOM hold true for Mobile
18:38:13 [allanj]
... a quick search shows that there are mobile DOMs for browsers
18:38:58 [allanj]
jr: we want AT to have access to DOM because APIs are weak, and DOMs are consistent across platforms
18:39:25 [allanj]
gl: consistent DOMs are important
18:41:40 [allanj]
not accepted. UAWG believes strongly that access to the DOM is important to accessibility because DOMs are consistent across platforms and OSs, and accessibility APIs do not always provide all of the information ATs need
18:43:46 [allanj]
action: greg to write "not accepted" phrasing for MS06 on 4.1.4 modeled on "not accepted. UAWG believes strongly that access to the DOM is important to accessibility because DOMs are consistent across platforms and OSs, and accessibility APIs do not always provide all of the information ATs needs"
18:43:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1068 - Write "not accepted" phrasing for ms06 on 4.1.4 modeled on "not accepted. uawg believes strongly that access to the dom is important to accessibility because doms are consistent across platforms and oss, and accessibility apis do not always provide all of the information ats needs" [on Greg Lowney - due 2015-02-12].
18:44:40 [allanj]
Assistive technologies need all possible information. Applications such as user agents and assistive technologies use a combination of DOMs, accessibility Application Programming Interfaces (API), native platform APIs, and hard-coded heuristics to provide an accessible user interface and accessible content. It is the user agent's responsibility to expose the DOM to assistive technology which...
18:44:41 [allanj]
...in many cases is the richest source of information on web content.
18:54:23 [allanj]
topic: 4.1.5 Write access to DOM
18:54:43 [allanj]
from comment https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0080.html
18:56:32 [jeanne]
4.1.5 Make Input Access Programmatically Available:
18:56:32 [jeanne]
If the user can input information through the user interface (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of input access is programmatically available.
18:56:42 [allanj]
js: perhaps change stem "Make Write Access Programmatically Available" to "Make Input Access Programmatically Available"
18:58:05 [allanj]
gl: the SC is only talking about modifying a state or value of a piece of content to the same degree that a user using the user interface
18:59:20 [allanj]
gl: they are misinterpreting the language of the SC
18:59:31 [allanj]
the intent of the SC: If users can control the user interface using any form of input, they can control it through programmatic access. It is often more reliable for assistive technology to use the programmatic method of access versus attempting to simulate mouse or keyboard input.
19:00:56 [Greg]
A slight change to Jeanne's wording: "Where the user can interact with content (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of input access is programmatically available."
19:02:40 [allanj]
Make content interaction Programmatically Available. Where the user can interact with content (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of interaction is programmatically available.
19:03:46 [Greg]
"is programmatically available" or "can be done programmatically"?
19:03:55 [allanj]
Make content interaction Programmatically Available. Where the user can interact with content (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of interaction can be done programmatically.
19:04:49 [Greg]
Make Content Interaction Programmatically Available: Where the user can interact with content (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of interaction is programmatically available. (Level A)
19:07:07 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:07:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:08:03 [allanj]
RESOLUTION: change 4.1.5 to Make Content Interaction Programmatically Available: Where the user can interact with content (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of interaction is programmatically available. (Level A)
19:08:23 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:08:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:08:55 [allanj]
topic: comments on 4.1.2
19:09:11 [allanj]
from: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0080.html
19:10:22 [jeanne]
4.1.5 Make Content Interaction Programmatically Available:
19:10:22 [jeanne]
If the user can interact with content (e.g. by checking a box or editing a text area), the same degree of interaction is programmatically available.
19:11:08 [jeanne]
agenda?
19:11:22 [allanj]
zakim, close item 1
19:11:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Survey for approval of Mobile Accessibility Task Force FPWD Note https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20150203/, closed
19:11:24 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:11:24 [Zakim]
2. GL 4 comments (4.1.4, 4.1.5) [from allanj]
19:11:30 [allanj]
zakim, close item 2
19:11:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2, GL 4 comments (4.1.4, 4.1.5), closed
19:11:31 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:11:31 [Zakim]
3. ACTION-1051 [from allanj]
19:12:44 [allanj]
4.1.2 Expose Basic Properties: For all user interface components, including UA user interface, rendered content, and generated content, the user agent makes available the following, if present, via a platform accessibility service: (Level A)
19:14:47 [Greg]
4.1.2 Expose Basic Properties: For all user interface components, including UA user interface, rendered content, and generated content, if the following attributes are present the user agent makes them available via a platform accessibility service: (Level A)
19:15:13 [allanj]
+1
19:15:17 [allanj]
jr: +1
19:16:41 [allanj]
gl: see no reason for 'state' to be plural.
19:16:44 [jeanne]
+1
19:17:56 [jeanne]
UAWG agrees and changed the SC to include "if present"
19:18:14 [allanj]
RESOLUTION: change 4.1.2 to content, and generated content, if the following attributes are present the user agent makes them available via a platform accessibility service: (Level A)
19:18:25 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:18:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:19:38 [allanj]
topic: 4.1.3 comments
19:20:00 [allanj]
current wording: 4.1.3 Provide Equivalent Accessible Alternatives: If a component of the UA user interface cannot be exposed through platform accessibility services, then the user agent provides an equivalent alternative that is exposed through the platform accessibility service. (Level A)
19:20:25 [Greg]
Intent: Like everyone else, users who rely on assistive technology need to be able to carry out all tasks provided by the user agent. When a particular user interface component cannot support the platform accessibility service, and thus can't be made compatible with assistive technology, the user agent should let the user achieve the same goal using another component that is fully accessible.
19:20:31 [allanj]
comment: I don't understand this one. It reads to me like, "If something can't be exposed through a11y services, then UAs must find an equivalent alternative and expose it". Is this a better way to put it: "If something can't be exposed through a11y services, then UAs must expose the equivalent alternative provided by the author"? The problem with the first reading is it requires UAs to...
19:20:32 [allanj]
...be intelligent.
19:21:37 [Jan]
Maybe: 4.1.3 Provide Equivalent Accessible Alternatives: If UA user interface functionality cannot be exposed through platform accessibility services, then the user agent provides equivalent functionality that can be exposed through the platform accessibility service. (Level A)
19:22:26 [allanj]
+1
19:23:39 [allanj]
jr: not a component thing it is a functionality thing, can the user do a given task that is provided somehow through the UA UI
19:24:13 [allanj]
RESOLUTION: change 4.1.3 to 4.1.3 Provide Equivalent Accessible Alternatives: If UA user interface functionality cannot be exposed through platform accessibility services, then the user agent provides equivalent functionality that can be exposed through the platform accessibility service. (Level A)
19:24:20 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:24:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:24:54 [allanj]
gl: need a better example
19:25:00 [Greg]
I think we could use a simpler example; the existing one is very complicated and not easy to follow.
19:25:32 [allanj]
jr: the user need to move an time, the UA has a drag and drop feature, but provides a keyboard accessible way to doing the same task
19:29:39 [Jan]
XXX is a screen reader user. She wants to bookmark the current page. Her browser allows her to drag a bookmark icon into the current document to bookmark the location. This functionality cannot be accessed effectively with her screen reader. However, the browser does allow her to add a bookmark from the context menu at the current focus.
19:29:41 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:30:46 [Jan]
XXX is a screen reader user. She wants to bookmark the current page. Her browser allows a bookmark icon to be dragged with a mouse into the current document to bookmark the location. This functionality cannot be accessed effectively with her screen reader. However, the browser does allow her to add a bookmark from the context menu at the current focus.
19:31:04 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:31:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:31:17 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:31:21 [Zakim]
-Greg_Lowney
19:31:24 [allanj]
zakim, please part
19:31:24 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Jan
19:31:24 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:39:56 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:39:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:40:40 [allanj]
regrets: Kim
19:40:43 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:41:02 [allanj]
rrsagent, please part
19:41:02 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-actions.rdf :
19:41:02 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: greg to write "not accepted" phrasing for MS06 on 4.1.4 modeled on "not accepted. UAWG believes strongly that access to the DOM is important to accessibility because DOMs are consistent across platforms and OSs, and accessibility APIs do not always provide all of the information ATs needs" [1]
19:41:02 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-ua-irc#T18-43-46