IRC log of shapes on 2015-02-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:57:39 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:57:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-shapes-irc
18:57:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:57:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #shapes
18:57:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:57:43 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
18:57:44 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:57:44 [trackbot]
Date: 05 February 2015
18:58:14 [kcoyle]
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18:58:22 [SimonSteyskal]
SimonSteyskal has joined #shapes
19:00:31 [Dimitris]
Dimitris has joined #shapes
19:00:39 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:00:39 [Zakim]
DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has not yet started, Arnaud
19:00:39 [hknublau]
hknublau has joined #shapes
19:00:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, Zakim, RRSAgent, Labra, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arnaud, rhiaro, sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:00:47 [Arnaud]
zakim, this is shapes
19:00:47 [Zakim]
ok, Arnaud; that matches DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
19:00:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.300.aabb
19:00:57 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:00:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P3, ??P4, ??P2, +1.510.435.aaaa, Arnaud, +1.919.300.aabb
19:01:09 [kcoyle]
zakim, aaaa is me
19:01:10 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
19:01:10 [Zakim]
-??P2
19:01:24 [Zakim]
+ +30694579aacc
19:01:32 [Zakim]
+??P11
19:01:45 [Dimitris]
zakim, +30694579aacc is me
19:01:45 [Zakim]
+Dimitris; got it
19:02:01 [cygri]
zakim, aabb is me
19:02:01 [Zakim]
+cygri; got it
19:02:23 [Zakim]
-??P4
19:02:25 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:02:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P3, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ??P11
19:02:26 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
19:02:30 [Zakim]
+pfps
19:02:35 [SteveS]
zakim, [ibm] is me
19:02:35 [Zakim]
+SteveS; got it
19:02:41 [Labra]
??P3 is labra
19:02:45 [Zakim]
+??P13
19:02:52 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Zakim, ??p13 is me
19:02:52 [Zakim]
+BartvanLeeuwen; got it
19:02:53 [Zakim]
+Arthur_Ryman
19:02:54 [ericP]
Zakim, P11 is me
19:02:54 [Zakim]
sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
19:02:58 [Zakim]
+??P4
19:02:58 [ericP]
Zakim, ??P11 is me
19:02:59 [Zakim]
+ericP; got it
19:03:04 [SimonSteyskal]
zakim, ??P4 is me
19:03:04 [Zakim]
+SimonSteyskal; got it
19:03:20 [ArthurRyman]
ArthurRyman has joined #shapes
19:03:23 [hsolbrig]
hsolbrig has joined #shapes
19:03:26 [ericP]
Zakim, who is here?
19:03:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P3, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ericP, SteveS, pfps, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal
19:03:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see hsolbrig, ArthurRyman, hknublau, Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, Zakim, RRSAgent, Labra, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arnaud, rhiaro, sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:03:37 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
19:03:40 [Labra]
zakim, ??P3 is labra
19:03:40 [Zakim]
+labra; got it
19:03:58 [hknublau]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:03:58 [Zakim]
+hknublau; got it
19:04:08 [micheld]
micheld has joined #shapes
19:04:18 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
19:04:57 [Zakim]
+michel
19:05:02 [BartvanLeeuwen]
scribe: BartvanLeeuwen
19:05:06 [hsolbrig]
zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:05:06 [Zakim]
+hsolbrig; got it
19:05:32 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: minutes of last meetings
19:05:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-shapes-minutes.html
19:06:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
http://www.w3.org/2015/01/29-shapes-minutes.html
19:06:24 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Minutes of 22-1 approved
19:06:31 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Minutes of 29-1 approved
19:07:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: F2F
19:07:02 [BartvanLeeuwen]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F2
19:07:47 [BartvanLeeuwen]
We are still looking for someone to pickup the bill for food / drinks
19:09:02 [Arnaud]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/pendingreview
19:09:10 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: Open issues
19:09:15 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Issue-9
19:09:15 [trackbot]
Issue-9 -- S7 does not appear to have a story -- pending review
19:09:15 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/9
19:10:05 [BartvanLeeuwen]
peter: delete the story
19:10:18 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-9, deleting S7
19:10:20 [pfps]
pfps has joined #shapes
19:10:34 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-9, deleting S7
19:10:45 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Issue-17
19:10:45 [trackbot]
Issue-17 -- S19 and S20 need information to distinguish from ontology recognition -- pending review
19:10:45 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/17
19:11:05 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps, this is about UI, since its in the charter my objection is not relevant
19:13:04 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-17, as is (would still be nice to have an example)
19:13:21 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-17, as is (would still be nice to have an example)
19:14:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud, could we close more issues like this, there are still considerable amount of issues which require more data
19:14:58 [pfps]
There is an easy solution for these. If the proposers don't fix their story then it should be dropped.
19:14:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman, lets discuss the issues on the call, this way people will have to show up and explain
19:15:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud, this is a time issue, it takes a lot
19:15:27 [BartvanLeeuwen]
hmm
19:16:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ericP: got it ;)
19:16:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: keep it only on 5 minutes max
19:16:28 [ArthurRyman]
q+
19:16:39 [Arnaud]
ack ??P11
19:16:45 [pfps]
Actually I think that the document is ready for FPWD as is. FPWDs don't have to be polished or even agreed-on by everyone.
19:16:59 [Arnaud]
ack ArthurRyman
19:17:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: its a great idea to get something in shape with a good lead time
19:17:24 [pfps]
Even if there are open issues the document can be published. It would be nice to note that there are open issues against a story, but that's not even necessary.
19:17:26 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: before the F2F
19:17:37 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: we need a bit of time, so put it on the agenda
19:17:57 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: peter suggested its good enough for a FPWD
19:18:28 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: for people new to W3C process, FPWD are not visible on the TR list
19:19:14 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: from a time pov we are behind, we should have published the FPWD in December 2014
19:19:37 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: a FPWD does not imply a commitment
19:19:58 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
19:19:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
SimonSteyskal: we at least want to clean up stories a bit
19:20:06 [TallTed]
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19:20:23 [BartvanLeeuwen]
SimonSteyskal: we havent agreed on requirements yet
19:20:40 [pfps]
Having a proposed FPWD ready next week would be the right timing to make a decision at the F2F and publish immediately afterwards.
19:20:48 [BartvanLeeuwen]
SimonSteyskal: should we include them, and note we didn't make any decisions
19:21:23 [Labra]
q+
19:21:31 [Arnaud]
ack Labra
19:21:46 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Labra: I wanted to ask if my user story could be added
19:21:50 [TallTed]
Zakim, who's here?
19:21:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see labra, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ericP, SteveS, pfps, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, hknublau, hsolbrig, michel, OpenLink_Software
19:21:52 [TallTed]
Zakim, who is on the call?
19:21:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see TallTed, pfps, micheld, hsolbrig, ArthurRyman, hknublau, Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, Zakim, RRSAgent, Labra, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arnaud, rhiaro,
19:21:54 [Zakim]
... sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:21:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see labra, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ericP, SteveS, pfps, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, hknublau, hsolbrig, michel, OpenLink_Software
19:22:00 [TallTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
19:22:00 [Zakim]
+TallTed; got it
19:22:02 [TallTed]
Zakim, mute me
19:22:02 [Zakim]
TallTed should now be muted
19:22:06 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Labra: pfps asked about constraints, thats why I added my story
19:22:09 [Arnaud]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#S38_Describing_and_Validating_Linked_Data_portals
19:22:47 [Arnaud]
PROPOSED: add S38 to the the User Stories
19:22:48 [ArthurRyman]
+1 to add it
19:22:50 [ericP]
+1
19:23:02 [pfps]
it's quite generic, so not reason to not have it
19:23:04 [pfps]
+1
19:23:08 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
19:23:08 [SimonSteyskal]
+1
19:23:09 [TallTed]
+1
19:23:09 [Dimitris]
+1
19:23:12 [SteveS]
+1
19:23:33 [Arnaud]
RESOLVED: add S38 to the the User Stories - status approved
19:24:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: Requirements
19:24:33 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: I'm proposing a new set of requirements to be approved
19:24:48 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: I've updated the wiki with those who got approved last week
19:25:11 [Arnaud]
PROPOSAL: Approve requirements 2.5.2, 2.5.3, 2.5.4, 2.5.10, 2.5.11, 2.6, 2.6.11, 2.7, 2.7.1, 2.7.4, 2.9
19:25:18 [pfps]
q+
19:25:32 [Arnaud]
ack pfps
19:25:46 [ericP]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/ShapeRequirements#Declarations_of_Member_Properties
19:25:48 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps: all the of the 2.5 ones are still hung up on the declaration issue
19:27:36 [Arnaud]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Declarations_of_Member_Properties_at_Classes
19:27:56 [cygri]
ericP: pfps, is your concern that we’re making ontological assertions rather than shape assertions?
19:28:01 [cygri]
pfps: yes.
19:28:14 [ArthurRyman]
q+
19:28:26 [Arnaud]
ack ArthurRyman
19:28:49 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: I want to propose a wording change, if we replace declaration with 'description of expected'
19:29:08 [kcoyle]
q+
19:29:10 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps: there are a lot of wording changes to be made in the document then.
19:29:28 [Arnaud]
ack kcoyle
19:29:52 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kcoyle: If I could understand this I would voulendteer to get the requirements in our document
19:30:02 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kcoyle: I have no idea what you talking about
19:30:30 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps: if I was making a wording change, I would say 'constraints on properties' or shapes
19:31:19 [ArthurRyman]
q+
19:32:29 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: we need a new wording which does not imply that we are talking about modeling
19:32:35 [Arnaud]
ack ArthurRyman
19:33:03 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: if we can get a substitute declaration then we should put it on top of the document
19:33:35 [ericP]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/ShapeRequirements#Assertions_of_Member_Properties
19:33:37 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: that declaration is not meant as a modeling language
19:36:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: doest assertions works for you ?
19:36:26 [SimonSteyskal]
just drop "assertions of"
19:36:46 [ArthurRyman]
q+
19:37:10 [Arnaud]
ack ArthurRyman
19:38:00 [Labra]
q+
19:38:24 [Arnaud]
ack Labra
19:38:28 [SimonSteyskal]
+1 to arnauds proposal
19:38:29 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: my proposal remove both assertion / declaration of
19:38:32 [ArthurRyman]
+1
19:38:38 [kcoyle]
+q
19:38:45 [Arnaud]
ack kcoyle
19:39:19 [Labra]
I would propose description instead of declaration/assertion
19:39:23 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kcoyle: if we drop declarations, is association with class still okay ?
19:39:30 [pfps]
Fine by me
19:39:40 [SimonSteyskal]
+1
19:40:14 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: I see light at end of the tunnel, but we need to change the document like ericP did in his version.
19:40:29 [SimonSteyskal]
all? or just 2.5 family
19:40:40 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: postpone the approval of the requirements to next week
19:41:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ericP: I made some substantial changes in the document, I might have misinterpreted something
19:41:32 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: separate the 2 issues, make the change we just talked about, and discuss the rest
19:42:27 [pfps]
associating classes with constraints is not a problem for me.
19:43:40 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: ericP update your document and send it to the mailing list so people can have a look at it
19:43:59 [Dimitris]
+q
19:44:10 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps: I take a look at the current document to get the declaration out of it
19:44:19 [Arnaud]
ack Dimitris
19:45:01 [pfps]
my plan is to edit the current document
19:45:49 [Dimitris]
asked EricP to add his changes in the original document as comments
19:46:23 [pfps]
I'm not volunteering to work on Eric's changed document
19:46:57 [pfps]
I respectfully decline
19:49:04 [Arnaud]
https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Expressivity:_Literal_Value_Comparison
19:50:04 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: Erics Proposal LDOM
19:50:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-primer/no-class-templates.html
19:50:23 [pfps]
"LDOM (Name and Acronym TBD) is an RDF-based modeling language"?
19:50:58 [pfps]
"LDOM (Name and Acronym TBD) fills the role of schema language for linked data"?
19:51:24 [pfps]
"LDOM declarations"?
19:52:32 [pfps]
"LDOM models"
19:52:49 [pfps]
"LDOM definitions"?
19:53:36 [pfps]
q+
19:53:41 [Arnaud]
ack pfps
19:54:10 [cygri]
q+
19:54:38 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps: my problem is that it stil looks like a modelling language
19:54:47 [Arnaud]
ack cygri
19:54:52 [BartvanLeeuwen]
pfps: not a shape defenition language
19:55:05 [BartvanLeeuwen]
cygri: I'm not sure the rework addresses the core issues
19:55:56 [BartvanLeeuwen]
cygri: If I have a language which puts contraints I can do modeling with it
19:56:35 [BartvanLeeuwen]
cygri: how does this connect to existing modelling languages
19:56:40 [ArthurRyman]
q+
19:56:46 [Arnaud]
ack ArthurRyman
19:57:06 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: there is a dif between a modeling and a contraint language
19:57:54 [hsolbrig]
q+
19:58:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: RDF provides the data model, RDFS/OWL put more information about inference on it, we still need a language to put constraints on the RDF data
19:58:26 [cygri]
cygri has joined #shapes
19:58:41 [BartvanLeeuwen]
cygri: we could use a constraint language for modeling, although awkward, it would work
19:58:54 [hknublau]
+1
19:59:20 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: we can use shapes there were inferencing is not used
19:59:26 [cygri]
+1 to the point that it doesn’t matter if we call it a modelling language or not
20:00:08 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ArthurRyman: we are creating the analog of xmlschema for rdf
20:00:17 [Arnaud]
ack hsolbrig
20:00:46 [BartvanLeeuwen]
hsolbrig: any modeling has a metamodel of some sort, and a set of rules that apply to the meta model
20:02:10 [ericP]
q+ to propose that i go through ripping out "model"
20:02:13 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Arnaud: it is clear that this issue is fundamental to our work
20:02:26 [Arnaud]
ack ericP
20:02:26 [Zakim]
ericP, you wanted to propose that i go through ripping out "model"
20:03:31 [pfps]
I expect that the edits will end up back at ... SPIN.
20:03:43 [Zakim]
-Arthur_Ryman
20:03:45 [Zakim]
-SimonSteyskal
20:03:47 [Zakim]
-SteveS
20:03:48 [Zakim]
-kcoyle
20:03:48 [Zakim]
-pfps
20:03:50 [Zakim]
-hknublau
20:03:50 [Zakim]
-Dimitris
20:03:51 [Zakim]
-cygri
20:03:53 [Zakim]
-michel
20:04:18 [Zakim]
-BartvanLeeuwen
20:04:19 [Zakim]
-hsolbrig
20:04:23 [Zakim]
-Arnaud
20:04:25 [Zakim]
-TallTed
20:04:27 [Zakim]
-ericP
20:05:05 [Zakim]
-labra
20:05:07 [Zakim]
DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:05:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were pfps, +1.510.435.aaaa, Arnaud, +1.919.300.aabb, kcoyle, Dimitris, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, ericP, SimonSteyskal, labra, hknublau, michel,
20:05:07 [Zakim]
... hsolbrig, TallTed
20:13:00 [Dimitris]
Dimitris has left #shapes
20:55:41 [SteveS]
SteveS has joined #shapes
21:19:11 [cygri]
cygri has joined #shapes
23:39:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #shapes