18:57:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:57:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-shapes-irc
18:57:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:57:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:57:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:57:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
18:57:44 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:57:44 <trackbot> Date: 05 February 2015
18:58:14 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #shapes
18:58:22 <SimonSteyskal> SimonSteyskal has joined #shapes
19:00:31 <Dimitris> Dimitris has joined #shapes
19:00:39 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:00:39 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has not yet started, Arnaud
19:00:39 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
19:00:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, Zakim, RRSAgent, Labra, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arnaud, rhiaro, sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:00:47 <Arnaud> zakim, this is shapes
19:00:47 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; that matches DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
19:00:50 <Zakim> + +1.919.300.aabb
19:00:57 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:00:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, ??P4, ??P2, +1.510.435.aaaa, Arnaud, +1.919.300.aabb
19:01:09 <kcoyle> zakim, aaaa is me
19:01:10 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
19:01:10 <Zakim> -??P2
19:01:24 <Zakim> + +30694579aacc
19:01:32 <Zakim> +??P11
19:01:45 <Dimitris> zakim, +30694579aacc is me
19:01:45 <Zakim> +Dimitris; got it
19:02:01 <cygri> zakim, aabb is me
19:02:01 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
19:02:23 <Zakim> -??P4
19:02:25 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:02:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ??P11
19:02:26 <Zakim> +[IBM]
19:02:30 <Zakim> +pfps
19:02:35 <SteveS> zakim, [ibm] is me
19:02:35 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
19:02:41 <Labra> ??P3 is labra
19:02:45 <Zakim> +??P13
19:02:52 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??p13 is me
19:02:52 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
19:02:53 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
19:02:54 <ericP> Zakim, P11 is me
19:02:54 <Zakim> sorry, ericP, I do not recognize a party named 'P11'
19:02:58 <Zakim> +??P4
19:02:58 <ericP> Zakim, ??P11 is me
19:02:59 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
19:03:04 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P4 is me
19:03:04 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
19:03:20 <ArthurRyman> ArthurRyman has joined #shapes
19:03:23 <hsolbrig> hsolbrig has joined #shapes
19:03:26 <ericP> Zakim, who is here?
19:03:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ericP, SteveS, pfps, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal
19:03:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see hsolbrig, ArthurRyman, hknublau, Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, Zakim, RRSAgent, Labra, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arnaud, rhiaro, sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:03:37 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:03:40 <Labra> zakim, ??P3 is labra
19:03:40 <Zakim> +labra; got it
19:03:58 <hknublau> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:03:58 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
19:04:08 <micheld> micheld has joined #shapes
19:04:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:04:57 <Zakim> +michel
19:05:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> scribe: BartvanLeeuwen
<BartvanLeeuwen> chair: Arnaud
<BartvanLeeuwen> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2015.02.05
19:05:06 <hsolbrig> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:05:06 <Zakim> +hsolbrig; got it
19:05:32 <BartvanLeeuwen> Topic: Admin
<BartvanLeeuwen> subtopic: Minutes from previous meetings
19:05:42 <BartvanLeeuwen> http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-shapes-minutes.html
19:06:12 <BartvanLeeuwen> http://www.w3.org/2015/01/29-shapes-minutes.html
19:06:24 <BartvanLeeuwen> RESOLVED: Minutes of 22 January approved
19:06:31 <BartvanLeeuwen> RESOLVED: Minutes of 29 January approved
19:07:00 <BartvanLeeuwen> subTopic: F2F
19:07:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/F2F2
19:07:47 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: We are still looking for someone to pickup the bill for food / drinks
19:09:10 <BartvanLeeuwen> Topic: Tracking of Actions and Issues
19:09:02 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/pendingreview
19:09:15 <BartvanLeeuwen> Issue-9
19:09:15 <trackbot> Issue-9 -- S7 does not appear to have a story -- pending review
19:09:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/9
19:10:05 <BartvanLeeuwen> peter: delete the story
19:10:18 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: close ISSUE-9, deleting S7
19:10:20 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
19:10:34 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-9, deleting S7
19:10:45 <BartvanLeeuwen> Issue-17
19:10:45 <trackbot> Issue-17 -- S19 and S20 need information to distinguish from ontology recognition -- pending review
19:10:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/17
19:11:05 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: this is about UI, since its in the charter my objection is not relevant
19:13:04 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-17, as is (would still be nice to have an example)
19:13:21 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-17, as is (would still be nice to have an example)
19:14:12 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: could we close more issues like this, there are still considerable amount of issues which require more data
19:14:58 <pfps> There is an easy solution for these.  If the proposers don't fix their story then it should be dropped.
19:14:59 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: lets discuss the issues on the call, this way people will have to show up and explain
19:15:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: this is a time issue, it takes a lot
19:16:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: keep it only on 5 minutes max
<BartvanLeeuwen> topic: User stories
19:16:28 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:16:39 <Arnaud> ack ??P11
19:16:45 <pfps> Actually I think that the document is ready for FPWD as is.  FPWDs don't have to be polished or even agreed-on by everyone.
19:16:59 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:17:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: its a great idea to get something in shape with a good lead time
19:17:24 <pfps> Even if there are open issues the document can be published.  It would be nice to note that there are open issues against a story, but that's not even necessary.
19:17:26 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: before the F2F
19:17:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: we need a bit of time, so put it on the agenda
19:17:57 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: peter suggested its good enough for a FPWD
19:18:28 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: for people new to W3C process, FPWD are not visible on the TR list
19:19:14 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: from a time pov we are behind, we should have published the FPWD in December 2014
19:19:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: a FPWD does not imply a commitment
19:19:58 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
19:19:59 <BartvanLeeuwen> SimonSteyskal: we at least want to clean up stories a bit
19:20:06 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #shapes
19:20:23 <BartvanLeeuwen> SimonSteyskal: we havent agreed on requirements yet
19:20:40 <pfps> Having a proposed FPWD ready next week would be the right timing to make a decision at the F2F and publish immediately afterwards.
19:20:48 <BartvanLeeuwen> SimonSteyskal: should we include them, and note we didn't make any decisions
19:21:23 <Labra> q+
19:21:31 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:21:46 <BartvanLeeuwen> Labra: I wanted to ask if my user story could be added
19:21:50 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
19:21:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see labra, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ericP, SteveS, pfps, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, hknublau, hsolbrig, michel, OpenLink_Software
19:21:52 <TallTed> Zakim, who is on the call?
19:21:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see TallTed, pfps, micheld, hsolbrig, ArthurRyman, hknublau, Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, kcoyle, Zakim, RRSAgent, Labra, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arnaud, rhiaro,
19:21:54 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP, trackbot
19:21:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see labra, kcoyle, Arnaud, cygri, Dimitris, ericP, SteveS, pfps, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, hknublau, hsolbrig, michel, OpenLink_Software
19:22:00 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
19:22:00 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
19:22:02 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
19:22:02 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
19:22:06 <BartvanLeeuwen> Labra: pfps asked about constraints, thats why I added my story
19:22:09 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#S38_Describing_and_Validating_Linked_Data_portals
19:22:47 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: add S38 to the the User Stories
19:22:48 <ArthurRyman> +1 to add it
19:22:50 <ericP> +1
19:23:02 <pfps> it's quite generic, so not reason to not have it
19:23:04 <pfps> +1
19:23:08 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
19:23:08 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:23:09 <TallTed> +1
19:23:09 <Dimitris> +1
19:23:12 <SteveS> +1
19:23:33 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Add S38 to the the User Stories - status approved
19:24:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> Topic: Requirements
19:24:33 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: I'm proposing a new set of requirements to be approved
19:24:48 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: I've updated the wiki with those who got approved last week
19:25:11 <Arnaud>  PROPOSAL: Approve requirements 2.5.2, 2.5.3, 2.5.4, 2.5.10, 2.5.11, 2.6, 2.6.11, 2.7, 2.7.1, 2.7.4, 2.9
19:25:18 <pfps> q+
19:25:32 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:25:46 <ericP> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/ShapeRequirements#Declarations_of_Member_Properties
19:25:48 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: all the of the 2.5 ones are still hung up on the declaration issue
19:27:36 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Declarations_of_Member_Properties_at_Classes
19:27:56 <cygri> ericP: pfps, is your concern that we’re making ontological assertions rather than shape assertions?
19:28:01 <cygri> pfps: yes.
19:28:14 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:28:26 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:28:49 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: I want to propose a wording change, if we replace declaration with 'description of expected'
19:29:08 <kcoyle> q+
19:29:10 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: there are a lot of wording changes to be made in the document then.
19:29:28 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:29:52 <BartvanLeeuwen> kcoyle: If I could understand this I would voulendteer to get the requirements in our document
19:30:02 <BartvanLeeuwen> kcoyle: I have no idea what you talking about
19:30:30 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: if I was making a wording change, I would say 'constraints on properties' or shapes
19:31:19 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:32:29 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: we need a new wording which does not imply that we are talking about modeling
19:32:35 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:33:03 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: if we can get a substitute declaration then we should put it on top of the document
19:33:35 <ericP> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/ShapeRequirements#Assertions_of_Member_Properties
19:33:37 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: that declaration is not meant as a modeling language
19:36:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: doest assertions works for you ?
19:36:26 <SimonSteyskal> just drop "assertions of"
19:36:46 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:37:10 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:38:00 <Labra> q+
19:38:24 <Arnaud> ack Labra
19:38:28 <SimonSteyskal> +1 to arnauds proposal
19:38:29 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: my proposal remove both assertion / declaration of
19:38:32 <ArthurRyman> +1
19:38:38 <kcoyle> +q
19:38:45 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:39:19 <Labra> I would propose description instead of declaration/assertion
19:39:23 <BartvanLeeuwen> kcoyle: if we drop declarations, is association with class still okay ?
19:39:30 <pfps> Fine by me
19:39:40 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:40:14 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: I see light at end of the tunnel, but we need to change the document like ericP did in his version.
19:40:29 <SimonSteyskal> all? or just 2.5 family
19:40:40 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: postpone the approval of the requirements to next week
19:41:12 <BartvanLeeuwen> ericP: I made some substantial changes in the document, I might have misinterpreted something
19:41:32 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: separate the 2 issues, make the change we just talked about, and discuss the rest
19:42:27 <pfps> associating classes with constraints is not a problem for me.
19:43:40 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: ericP update your document and send it to the mailing list so people can have a look at it
19:43:59 <Dimitris> +q
19:44:10 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: I take a look at the current document to get the declaration out of it
19:44:19 <Arnaud> ack Dimitris
19:45:01 <pfps> my plan is to edit the current document
19:45:49 <Dimitris> asked EricP to add his changes in the original document as comments
19:46:23 <pfps> I'm not volunteering to work on Eric's changed document
19:46:57 <pfps> I respectfully decline
19:49:04 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Expressivity:_Literal_Value_Comparison
19:50:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> Topic: Eric's Revised LDOM Proposal
19:50:12 <BartvanLeeuwen> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-primer/no-class-templates.html
19:50:23 <pfps> "LDOM (Name and Acronym TBD) is an RDF-based modeling language"?
19:50:58 <pfps> "LDOM (Name and Acronym TBD) fills the role of schema language for linked data"?
19:51:24 <pfps> "LDOM declarations"?
19:52:32 <pfps> "LDOM models"
19:52:49 <pfps> "LDOM definitions"?
19:53:36 <pfps> q+
19:53:41 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:54:10 <cygri> q+
19:54:38 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: my problem is that it stil looks like a modelling language
19:54:47 <Arnaud> ack cygri
19:54:52 <BartvanLeeuwen> pfps: not a shape defenition language
19:55:05 <BartvanLeeuwen> cygri: I'm not sure the rework addresses the core issues
19:55:56 <BartvanLeeuwen> cygri: If I have a language which puts contraints I can do modeling with it
19:56:35 <BartvanLeeuwen> cygri: how does this connect to existing modelling languages
19:56:40 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:56:46 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:57:06 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: there is a dif between a modeling and a contraint language
19:57:54 <hsolbrig> q+
19:58:09 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: RDF provides the data model, RDFS/OWL put more information about inference on it, we still need a language to put constraints on the RDF data
19:58:26 <cygri> cygri has joined #shapes
19:58:41 <BartvanLeeuwen> cygri: we could use a constraint language for modeling, although awkward, it would work
19:58:54 <hknublau> +1
19:59:20 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: we can use shapes there were inferencing is not used
19:59:26 <cygri> +1 to the point that it doesn’t matter if we call it a modelling language or not
20:00:08 <BartvanLeeuwen> ArthurRyman: we are creating the analog of xmlschema for rdf
20:00:17 <Arnaud> ack hsolbrig
20:00:46 <BartvanLeeuwen> hsolbrig: any modeling has a metamodel of some sort, and a set of rules that apply to the meta model
20:02:10 <ericP> q+ to propose that i go through ripping out "model"
20:02:13 <BartvanLeeuwen> Arnaud: it is clear that this issue is fundamental to our work
20:02:26 <Arnaud> ack ericP
20:02:26 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to propose that i go through ripping out "model"
20:03:31 <pfps> I expect that the edits will end up back at ... SPIN.
20:03:43 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
20:03:45 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
20:03:47 <Zakim> -SteveS
20:03:48 <Zakim> -kcoyle
20:03:48 <Zakim> -pfps
20:03:50 <Zakim> -hknublau
20:03:50 <Zakim> -Dimitris
20:03:51 <Zakim> -cygri
20:03:53 <Zakim> -michel
20:04:18 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
20:04:19 <Zakim> -hsolbrig
20:04:23 <Zakim> -Arnaud
20:04:25 <Zakim> -TallTed
20:04:27 <Zakim> -ericP
20:05:05 <Zakim> -labra
20:05:07 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:05:07 <Zakim> Attendees were pfps, +1.510.435.aaaa, Arnaud, +1.919.300.aabb, kcoyle, Dimitris, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, ericP, SimonSteyskal, labra, hknublau, michel,
20:05:07 <Zakim> ... hsolbrig, TallTed
<BartvanLeeuwen> Present: pfps, Arnaud, kcoyle, Dimitris, cygri, SteveS, BartvanLeeuwen, Arthur_Ryman, ericP, SimonSteyskal, labra, hknublau, michel, hsolbrig, TallTed
20:13:00 <Dimitris> Dimitris has left #shapes
20:55:41 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #shapes
21:19:11 <cygri> cygri has joined #shapes
23:39:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #shapes