14:51:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:51:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-irc
14:51:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
14:52:05 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:52:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:52:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:52:10 <trackbot> Date: 05 February 2015
14:52:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_WG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:24 <aphillip> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2015Feb/0006.html
14:52:31 <aphillip> agenda+ Radar Review
14:52:39 <aphillip> agenda+ Layout Task Force progress
14:52:47 <aphillip> agenda+ Review Open Tracker Items
14:52:52 <aphillip> Regrets+ Leandro
14:52:56 <aphillip> Regrets+ Steven
15:00:51 <Zakim> I18N_WG()10:00AM has now started
15:00:58 <Zakim> +aphillip
15:01:03 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip
15:01:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, trackbot
15:01:06 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
15:01:06 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:01:09 <Zakim> +Richard
15:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.703.948.aaaa
15:02:15 <DennisTan> DennisTan has joined #i18n
15:02:27 <aphillip> zakim, +1.703 is DennisTan
15:02:27 <Zakim> +DennisTan; got it
15:02:48 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, DennisTan
15:02:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, trackbot
15:03:55 <r12a> agenda+ bidi requirements doc
15:04:14 <aphillip> agenda?
15:06:05 <aphillip> agenda+ bopomofo tone mark
15:06:41 <aphillip> Regrets+ Felix
15:06:53 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
15:06:55 <aphillip> agenda?
15:06:57 <r12a> agenda+ intial letter alignment
15:07:16 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:07:33 <aphillip> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
15:08:18 <DennisTan> http://www.w3.org/International/articles/idn-and-iri/
15:08:40 <aphillip> action: Dennis: update article "An Introduction to Multilingual Web Addresses"
15:08:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-399 - Update article "an introduction to multilingual web addresses" [on Dennis Tan Tanaka - due 2015-02-12].
15:09:11 <aphillip> action-113?
15:09:11 <trackbot> action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN
15:09:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113
15:09:24 <aphillip> richard: done a fair bit of editorial work on this
15:09:29 <aphillip> ... want to discuss later
15:10:20 <aphillip> action-360?
15:10:20 <trackbot> action-360 -- Xiaoqian Wu to Survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in chinese e-books -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN
15:10:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/360
15:10:27 <aphillip> addison to ping xiaoqian
15:11:00 <aphillip> action-364?
15:11:00 <trackbot> action-364 -- Richard Ishida to Document how "sticky" language negotiation is done in our pages as an article -- due 2014-11-07 -- OPEN
15:11:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/364
15:11:10 <aphillip> richard: had a good whack at this
15:11:13 <aphillip> ... in progress
15:12:36 <aphillip> close action-392
15:12:37 <trackbot> Closed action-392.
15:12:49 <aphillip> richard: both documents now published with a joint announcement!
15:13:24 <aphillip> close action-394
15:13:24 <trackbot> Closed action-394.
15:13:37 <aphillip> action-394?
15:13:37 <trackbot> action-394 -- Somnath Chandra to Send richard detailed requirements for initial letters in various indic scripts -- due 2015-01-29 -- CLOSED
15:13:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/394
15:13:59 <aphillip> richard is halfway through preparing a response to Somnath's information
15:14:31 <aphillip> action-397?
15:14:31 <trackbot> action-397 -- Addison Phillips to Ping norbert about js progress status -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN
15:14:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/397
15:14:43 <aphillip> close action-397
15:14:43 <trackbot> Closed action-397.
15:15:13 <aphillip> action: addison: follow up with new ES-402 owner for status of ES I18N work
15:15:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-400 - Follow up with new es-402 owner for status of es i18n work [on Addison Phillips - due 2015-02-12].
15:15:31 <aphillip> close action-398
15:15:31 <trackbot> Closed action-398.
15:15:40 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:15:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:16:21 <aphillip> richard: mentioned epub/dpub people would like review of an article
15:16:36 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks
15:16:40 <somnath> somnath has joined #i18n
15:16:45 <aphillip> richard: they reviewed the above page
15:16:45 <r12a> Improving text layout and typography on the Web and in eBooks
15:17:06 <aphillip> richard: updated this based on things they said
15:17:10 <aphillip> ... added a couple of sections
15:17:14 <aphillip> ... and a few bits in intro
15:17:19 <aphillip> ... now available in chinese
15:17:26 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Improving_typography_on_the_Web_and_in_eBooks_zh
15:17:27 <aphillip> ... xiaoqian translated it
15:17:31 <r12a> 在Web和数字出版中优化文字排版
15:17:34 <aphillip> ... above link is Chinese
15:17:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:17:43 <aphillip> richard: created another page
15:17:51 <r12a> Links to text layout and typography information
15:17:59 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Layout_links
15:18:16 <aphillip> richard: this is off-top-of-head links to non-w3c publications
15:18:25 <aphillip> ... various aspects of digital publishing
15:18:35 <aphillip> ... stuff on arabic, chinese, urdu, mongolian, etc.
15:18:42 <aphillip> ... please add other information you know of
15:18:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:19:02 <r12a> zakim, who's here?
15:19:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, DennisTan
15:19:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see somnath, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, trackbot
15:19:12 <aphillip> agenda?
15:19:23 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 1
15:19:24 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Radar Review" taken up [from aphillip]
15:19:33 <aphillip> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar
15:20:41 <aphillip> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar
15:21:33 <aphillip> richard: got suggestions for greek styles that I haven't responded to yet
15:21:41 <aphillip> agenda?
15:22:06 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 4
15:22:06 <Zakim> agendum 4. "bidi requirements doc" taken up [from r12a]
15:22:31 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/editme.html
15:22:51 <aphillip> richard: ported to respec
15:23:27 <aphillip> ... thing that's difficult is what to do about status updates
15:23:45 <aphillip> ... often says "currently state is <x>"
15:24:00 <aphillip> ... changed in some cases "state in HTML4 is"
15:24:07 <aphillip> ... alternative is
15:24:15 <aphillip> .. see section 2.2.1
15:24:47 <aphillip> richard: turned update into "note"
15:25:03 <aphillip> ... so "publish in original form, but brief updates on what happened"
15:27:12 <aphillip> (discussion)
15:28:26 <aphillip> addison: some mumble about "updates are as of pub date, no future updates"
15:29:11 <aphillip> richard: the one link is a googledoc so not appropriate reference
15:29:16 <aphillip> ... make a wiki page or similar?
15:30:28 <aphillip> addison: make as appendix?
15:30:38 <aphillip> richard: hmm... could do...?
15:31:06 <aphillip> agenda?
15:32:03 <aphillip> zakim, take agendum 5
15:32:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take agendum 5', aphillip
15:32:12 <r12a> http://rishida.net/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb
15:32:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:32:30 <aphillip> richard: went back and reviewed CSS discussions
15:32:41 <aphillip> ... people talking about bopomofo had a partial view of the world
15:32:48 <aphillip> ... so tried to summarize the overall picture
15:32:56 <aphillip> ... both "what ruby does" and what we know about it
15:33:04 <aphillip> ... further discussion refined for use cases
15:33:19 <aphillip> richard: document reasons why we don't want to do things people repeatedly suggest
15:33:33 <aphillip> ... current thinking is that we would create new fonts
15:33:39 <aphillip> ... that would put tone marks in right place
15:34:00 <aphillip> ... ted o'connor just sent an email saying apple working on it, think browser should position tone mark
15:34:07 <aphillip> ... no evidence in testing yet
15:34:17 <aphillip> richard: bobby created font and I created a test for it
15:34:28 <aphillip> ... some people bobby knows, should say
15:34:46 <r12a> http://rishida.net/scripts/bopomofo/ontheweb#forward
15:35:02 <aphillip> richard: four tone marks
15:35:09 <aphillip> ... three of which are like diacritics
15:35:17 <aphillip> ... not combining though
15:35:27 <aphillip> ... fourth is spacing (light tone)
15:35:33 <aphillip> ... question is where to put it
15:35:53 <aphillip> ... light tone goes before the bopomofo letters
15:36:22 <aphillip> ... IMEs enforce typing the tone mark last
15:36:49 <aphillip> richard: bobby has a tool that looks up bopomofo and creates markup for you
15:36:55 <aphillip> ... msft has something similar
15:37:58 <aphillip> addison: problem is that tone mark should be first in document (so reposition)
15:38:08 <aphillip> richard: looking for authoritative references
15:38:21 <aphillip> ... documents done "carefully" put tone mark first
15:38:44 <aphillip> ... can find "bad" examples
15:40:31 <aphillip> addison: concerned that a font is probably not the right solution: prefer the mark to appear where encoded?
15:40:57 <aphillip> richard: the above #forward says what is likely to happen unless apple pushes back
15:41:25 <aphillip> ... only works for ruby unless you have a specific context in mind
15:41:36 <aphillip> ... lots of pages of plain bopomofo text
15:41:41 <aphillip> ... transcriptions and such
15:42:55 <aphillip> addison: hard on implementers, since have to integrate fonts into overall scehem
15:43:02 <aphillip> ... plus it's not CSS or HTML
15:49:00 <aphillip> (further discussion)
15:49:08 <aphillip> agenda?
15:49:46 <aphillip> zakim, take up agendum 6
15:49:46 <Zakim> agendum 6. "intial letter alignment" taken up [from r12a]
15:50:36 <aphillip> richard: have tracker issue
15:50:47 <aphillip> ... css inline document specifies one way of doing drop cap
15:50:52 <aphillip> ... and there might be more
15:51:00 <aphillip> richard: spec currently has two properties
15:51:11 <aphillip> ... first one is "want this to be x lines deep and x lines high"
15:51:20 <aphillip> ... so drops down so many lines
15:51:26 <aphillip> ... (will send email to clarify)
15:51:32 <aphillip> ... not size of letter
15:51:40 <somnath> q+
15:51:43 <aphillip> ... size from baseline to cap head
15:51:57 <aphillip> ... not same height as ascender
15:52:06 <aphillip> ... so things like circumflex stick out the top
15:52:18 <aphillip> ...and descenders like ogonek or on 'g' stick out bottom
15:52:26 <aphillip> ... and have to make "additional space" for those things
15:52:36 <aphillip> ... but size of letter is from cap height and baseline
15:52:48 <aphillip> ... cap height line aligns with top of first line
15:53:02 <aphillip> ... cap height is not something you worry about in devanagari
15:53:27 <aphillip> ... somnath sent me basic idea is a "box" certain number of lines high
15:53:34 <aphillip> ... and whole character fits into box
15:53:53 <aphillip> ... if without subjoining characters, it would  look big
15:54:07 <aphillip> ... if you had a lot of subjoining, character would look quite small
15:54:24 <aphillip> ... a  lot of languages have colored boxes you fit character into
15:54:56 <aphillip> richard:  slight additional complication
15:55:05 <aphillip> ... you do certain alignments
15:55:17 <aphillip> ... align "hanging baseline"
15:55:34 <aphillip> ... if you have one
15:55:47 <aphillip> ... try to align with first line of capped text
15:55:59 <aphillip> ... box is positioned relative to a glyph feature
15:56:58 <aphillip> ... vowel sign above actually changes top of box
15:57:18 <aphillip> ... unclear if the bottom of box changes to correspond
15:57:33 <aphillip> addison: a "when you see it, know it's right" situation :-)
15:57:41 <aphillip> richard: works with deva or bengali
15:57:54 <aphillip> ... but not with some other scripts? tibetan......
15:58:02 <aphillip> ... read a long list of emails yesterday
15:58:06 <aphillip> ack somnath
15:58:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:58:53 <somnath> need detailed feedback on my document to work towards an acceptable solution.
15:59:27 <r12a> somnath see earlier in the meeting, i am half-way through a response to you
15:59:38 <r12a> but i want to build in the wider picture at the same time
15:59:55 <r12a> so it may take a little while longer
16:00:08 <somnath> sure ok
16:00:57 <DennisTan> Have to drop off. Bye.
16:01:02 <Zakim> -DennisTan
16:09:00 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
16:09:02 <aphillip> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/CaseForCaselessCSS
16:11:48 <aphillip> richard: need to say something about unicode contorls such as word joiner
16:11:56 <aphillip> ... in charmod
16:12:05 <aphillip> ... should have a section on that
16:12:49 <aphillip> addison: I'll whip up a starter section on that in charmod norm draft
16:18:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:18:46 <r12a> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0
16:21:04 <Zakim> -aphillip
16:30:46 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were aphillip, Richard, +1.703.948.aaaa, DennisTan
16:30:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
16:30:56 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:31:16 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
16:31:20 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
16:31:25 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
16:31:31 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:31:45 <aphillip> Present: Richard, Dennis, Addison
16:31:56 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:32:51 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
16:32:51 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-actions.rdf :
16:32:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dennis: update article "An Introduction to Multilingual Web Addresses" [1]
16:32:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-irc#T15-08-40
16:32:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: addison: follow up with new ES-402 owner for status of ES I18N work [2]
16:32:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/02/05-i18n-irc#T15-15-13