IRC log of i18n on 2015-02-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:51:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:51:59 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #i18n
14:52:05 [aphillip]
trackbot, prepare teleconference
14:52:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:52:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 4186
14:52:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:52:10 [trackbot]
Date: 05 February 2015
14:52:10 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see I18N_WG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
14:52:24 [aphillip]
14:52:31 [aphillip]
agenda+ Radar Review
14:52:39 [aphillip]
agenda+ Layout Task Force progress
14:52:47 [aphillip]
agenda+ Review Open Tracker Items
14:52:52 [aphillip]
Regrets+ Leandro
14:52:56 [aphillip]
Regrets+ Steven
15:00:51 [Zakim]
I18N_WG()10:00AM has now started
15:00:58 [Zakim]
15:01:03 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
15:01:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip
15:01:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, trackbot
15:01:06 [r12a]
zakim, dial richard
15:01:06 [Zakim]
ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:01:09 [Zakim]
15:02:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.703.948.aaaa
15:02:15 [DennisTan]
DennisTan has joined #i18n
15:02:27 [aphillip]
zakim, +1.703 is DennisTan
15:02:27 [Zakim]
+DennisTan; got it
15:02:48 [aphillip]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, DennisTan
15:02:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, trackbot
15:03:55 [r12a]
agenda+ bidi requirements doc
15:04:14 [aphillip]
15:06:05 [aphillip]
agenda+ bopomofo tone mark
15:06:41 [aphillip]
Regrets+ Felix
15:06:53 [aphillip]
Topic: Agenda
15:06:55 [aphillip]
15:06:57 [r12a]
agenda+ intial letter alignment
15:07:16 [aphillip]
Topic: Action Items
15:07:33 [aphillip]
15:08:18 [DennisTan]
15:08:40 [aphillip]
action: Dennis: update article "An Introduction to Multilingual Web Addresses"
15:08:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-399 - Update article "an introduction to multilingual web addresses" [on Dennis Tan Tanaka - due 2015-02-12].
15:09:11 [aphillip]
15:09:11 [trackbot]
action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN
15:09:11 [trackbot]
15:09:24 [aphillip]
richard: done a fair bit of editorial work on this
15:09:29 [aphillip]
... want to discuss later
15:10:20 [aphillip]
15:10:20 [trackbot]
action-360 -- Xiaoqian Wu to Survey publishers if there are requirements for additional/more specific styles in chinese e-books -- due 2014-11-06 -- OPEN
15:10:20 [trackbot]
15:10:27 [aphillip]
addison to ping xiaoqian
15:11:00 [aphillip]
15:11:00 [trackbot]
action-364 -- Richard Ishida to Document how "sticky" language negotiation is done in our pages as an article -- due 2014-11-07 -- OPEN
15:11:00 [trackbot]
15:11:10 [aphillip]
richard: had a good whack at this
15:11:13 [aphillip]
... in progress
15:12:36 [aphillip]
close action-392
15:12:37 [trackbot]
Closed action-392.
15:12:49 [aphillip]
richard: both documents now published with a joint announcement!
15:13:24 [aphillip]
close action-394
15:13:24 [trackbot]
Closed action-394.
15:13:37 [aphillip]
15:13:37 [trackbot]
action-394 -- Somnath Chandra to Send richard detailed requirements for initial letters in various indic scripts -- due 2015-01-29 -- CLOSED
15:13:37 [trackbot]
15:13:59 [aphillip]
richard is halfway through preparing a response to Somnath's information
15:14:31 [aphillip]
15:14:31 [trackbot]
action-397 -- Addison Phillips to Ping norbert about js progress status -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN
15:14:31 [trackbot]
15:14:43 [aphillip]
close action-397
15:14:43 [trackbot]
Closed action-397.
15:15:13 [aphillip]
action: addison: follow up with new ES-402 owner for status of ES I18N work
15:15:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-400 - Follow up with new es-402 owner for status of es i18n work [on Addison Phillips - due 2015-02-12].
15:15:31 [aphillip]
close action-398
15:15:31 [trackbot]
Closed action-398.
15:15:40 [aphillip]
Topic: Info Share
15:15:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:16:21 [aphillip]
richard: mentioned epub/dpub people would like review of an article
15:16:36 [r12a]
15:16:40 [somnath]
somnath has joined #i18n
15:16:45 [aphillip]
richard: they reviewed the above page
15:16:45 [r12a]
Improving text layout and typography on the Web and in eBooks
15:17:06 [aphillip]
richard: updated this based on things they said
15:17:10 [aphillip]
... added a couple of sections
15:17:14 [aphillip]
... and a few bits in intro
15:17:19 [aphillip]
... now available in chinese
15:17:26 [r12a]
15:17:27 [aphillip]
... xiaoqian translated it
15:17:31 [r12a]
15:17:34 [aphillip]
... above link is Chinese
15:17:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:17:43 [aphillip]
richard: created another page
15:17:51 [r12a]
Links to text layout and typography information
15:17:59 [r12a]
15:18:16 [aphillip]
richard: this is off-top-of-head links to non-w3c publications
15:18:25 [aphillip]
... various aspects of digital publishing
15:18:35 [aphillip]
... stuff on arabic, chinese, urdu, mongolian, etc.
15:18:42 [aphillip]
... please add other information you know of
15:18:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:19:02 [r12a]
zakim, who's here?
15:19:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, DennisTan
15:19:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see somnath, DennisTan, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, r12a, koji, fantasai, trackbot
15:19:12 [aphillip]
15:19:23 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:19:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Radar Review" taken up [from aphillip]
15:19:33 [aphillip]
15:20:41 [aphillip]
15:21:33 [aphillip]
richard: got suggestions for greek styles that I haven't responded to yet
15:21:41 [aphillip]
15:22:06 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:22:06 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "bidi requirements doc" taken up [from r12a]
15:22:31 [r12a]
15:22:51 [aphillip]
richard: ported to respec
15:23:27 [aphillip]
... thing that's difficult is what to do about status updates
15:23:45 [aphillip]
... often says "currently state is <x>"
15:24:00 [aphillip]
... changed in some cases "state in HTML4 is"
15:24:07 [aphillip]
... alternative is
15:24:15 [aphillip]
.. see section 2.2.1
15:24:47 [aphillip]
richard: turned update into "note"
15:25:03 [aphillip]
... so "publish in original form, but brief updates on what happened"
15:27:12 [aphillip]
15:28:26 [aphillip]
addison: some mumble about "updates are as of pub date, no future updates"
15:29:11 [aphillip]
richard: the one link is a googledoc so not appropriate reference
15:29:16 [aphillip]
... make a wiki page or similar?
15:30:28 [aphillip]
addison: make as appendix?
15:30:38 [aphillip]
richard: hmm... could do...?
15:31:06 [aphillip]
15:32:03 [aphillip]
zakim, take agendum 5
15:32:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'take agendum 5', aphillip
15:32:12 [r12a]
15:32:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:32:30 [aphillip]
richard: went back and reviewed CSS discussions
15:32:41 [aphillip]
... people talking about bopomofo had a partial view of the world
15:32:48 [aphillip]
... so tried to summarize the overall picture
15:32:56 [aphillip]
... both "what ruby does" and what we know about it
15:33:04 [aphillip]
... further discussion refined for use cases
15:33:19 [aphillip]
richard: document reasons why we don't want to do things people repeatedly suggest
15:33:33 [aphillip]
... current thinking is that we would create new fonts
15:33:39 [aphillip]
... that would put tone marks in right place
15:34:00 [aphillip]
... ted o'connor just sent an email saying apple working on it, think browser should position tone mark
15:34:07 [aphillip]
... no evidence in testing yet
15:34:17 [aphillip]
richard: bobby created font and I created a test for it
15:34:28 [aphillip]
... some people bobby knows, should say
15:34:46 [r12a]
15:35:02 [aphillip]
richard: four tone marks
15:35:09 [aphillip]
... three of which are like diacritics
15:35:17 [aphillip]
... not combining though
15:35:27 [aphillip]
... fourth is spacing (light tone)
15:35:33 [aphillip]
... question is where to put it
15:35:53 [aphillip]
... light tone goes before the bopomofo letters
15:36:22 [aphillip]
... IMEs enforce typing the tone mark last
15:36:49 [aphillip]
richard: bobby has a tool that looks up bopomofo and creates markup for you
15:36:55 [aphillip]
... msft has something similar
15:37:58 [aphillip]
addison: problem is that tone mark should be first in document (so reposition)
15:38:08 [aphillip]
richard: looking for authoritative references
15:38:21 [aphillip]
... documents done "carefully" put tone mark first
15:38:44 [aphillip]
... can find "bad" examples
15:40:31 [aphillip]
addison: concerned that a font is probably not the right solution: prefer the mark to appear where encoded?
15:40:57 [aphillip]
richard: the above #forward says what is likely to happen unless apple pushes back
15:41:25 [aphillip]
... only works for ruby unless you have a specific context in mind
15:41:36 [aphillip]
... lots of pages of plain bopomofo text
15:41:41 [aphillip]
... transcriptions and such
15:42:55 [aphillip]
addison: hard on implementers, since have to integrate fonts into overall scehem
15:43:02 [aphillip]
... plus it's not CSS or HTML
15:49:00 [aphillip]
(further discussion)
15:49:08 [aphillip]
15:49:46 [aphillip]
zakim, take up agendum 6
15:49:46 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "intial letter alignment" taken up [from r12a]
15:50:36 [aphillip]
richard: have tracker issue
15:50:47 [aphillip]
... css inline document specifies one way of doing drop cap
15:50:52 [aphillip]
... and there might be more
15:51:00 [aphillip]
richard: spec currently has two properties
15:51:11 [aphillip]
... first one is "want this to be x lines deep and x lines high"
15:51:20 [aphillip]
... so drops down so many lines
15:51:26 [aphillip]
... (will send email to clarify)
15:51:32 [aphillip]
... not size of letter
15:51:40 [somnath]
15:51:43 [aphillip]
... size from baseline to cap head
15:51:57 [aphillip]
... not same height as ascender
15:52:06 [aphillip]
... so things like circumflex stick out the top
15:52:18 [aphillip]
...and descenders like ogonek or on 'g' stick out bottom
15:52:26 [aphillip]
... and have to make "additional space" for those things
15:52:36 [aphillip]
... but size of letter is from cap height and baseline
15:52:48 [aphillip]
... cap height line aligns with top of first line
15:53:02 [aphillip]
... cap height is not something you worry about in devanagari
15:53:27 [aphillip]
... somnath sent me basic idea is a "box" certain number of lines high
15:53:34 [aphillip]
... and whole character fits into box
15:53:53 [aphillip]
... if without subjoining characters, it would look big
15:54:07 [aphillip]
... if you had a lot of subjoining, character would look quite small
15:54:24 [aphillip]
... a lot of languages have colored boxes you fit character into
15:54:56 [aphillip]
richard: slight additional complication
15:55:05 [aphillip]
... you do certain alignments
15:55:17 [aphillip]
... align "hanging baseline"
15:55:34 [aphillip]
... if you have one
15:55:47 [aphillip]
... try to align with first line of capped text
15:55:59 [aphillip]
... box is positioned relative to a glyph feature
15:56:58 [aphillip]
... vowel sign above actually changes top of box
15:57:18 [aphillip]
... unclear if the bottom of box changes to correspond
15:57:33 [aphillip]
addison: a "when you see it, know it's right" situation :-)
15:57:41 [aphillip]
richard: works with deva or bengali
15:57:54 [aphillip]
... but not with some other scripts? tibetan......
15:58:02 [aphillip]
... read a long list of emails yesterday
15:58:06 [aphillip]
ack somnath
15:58:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
15:58:53 [somnath]
need detailed feedback on my document to work towards an acceptable solution.
15:59:27 [r12a]
somnath see earlier in the meeting, i am half-way through a response to you
15:59:38 [r12a]
but i want to build in the wider picture at the same time
15:59:55 [r12a]
so it may take a little while longer
16:00:08 [somnath]
sure ok
16:00:57 [DennisTan]
Have to drop off. Bye.
16:01:02 [Zakim]
16:09:00 [aphillip]
Topic: AOB?
16:09:02 [aphillip]
16:11:48 [aphillip]
richard: need to say something about unicode contorls such as word joiner
16:11:56 [aphillip]
... in charmod
16:12:05 [aphillip]
... should have a section on that
16:12:49 [aphillip]
addison: I'll whip up a starter section on that in charmod norm draft
16:18:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:18:46 [r12a]
16:21:04 [Zakim]
16:30:46 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were aphillip, Richard, +1.703.948.aaaa, DennisTan
16:30:46 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
16:30:56 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:30:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:31:16 [aphillip]
Chair: Addison Phillips
16:31:20 [aphillip]
ScribeNick: aphillip
16:31:25 [aphillip]
Scribe: Addison Phillips
16:31:31 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:31:45 [aphillip]
Present: Richard, Dennis, Addison
16:31:56 [aphillip]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate aphillip
16:32:51 [aphillip]
rrsagent, bye
16:32:51 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
16:32:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dennis: update article "An Introduction to Multilingual Web Addresses" [1]
16:32:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:32:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: addison: follow up with new ES-402 owner for status of ES I18N work [2]
16:32:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in