14:02:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y
14:02:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-irc
14:02:27 <LJWatson> zakim, this is 2742
14:02:27 <Zakim> ok, LJWatson; that matches WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM
14:02:37 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
14:02:38 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Fred_Esch, [IPcaller], Charu_Pandhi, Jason_White
14:02:48 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
14:02:48 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
14:02:55 <Zakim> +??P21
14:03:51 <AmeliaBR> zakim, ??P21 is me
14:03:51 <Zakim> +AmeliaBR; got it
14:04:15 <LJWatson> agenda+ SVG Accessibility API Mappings
14:04:28 <LJWatson> agenda+ CSUN
14:04:42 <LJWatson> agenda+ Taxonomy next steps
14:04:59 <LJWatson> agenda+ Scope task force effort
14:05:14 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:05:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:05:50 <LJWatson> Meeting: SVG A11y TF teleconf
14:06:52 <LJWatson> Chair: Fred Esch
14:06:59 <fesch> regrets: doug
14:07:29 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:07:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see Fred_Esch, LJWatson, Charu_Pandhi, Jason_White (muted), AmeliaBR
14:09:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
14:09:39 <fesch> rich first item is SVG mappings
14:09:44 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:10:01 <LJWatson> scribenick LJWatson
14:10:11 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
14:10:11 <Zakim> agendum 1. "SVG Accessibility API Mappings" taken up [from LJWatson]
14:10:20 <LJWatson> RS: Have made most updates.
14:10:43 <LJWatson> RS: Still issues with mapping to none. Need to be handled differently for SVG.
14:12:43 <LJWatson> RS: Problem with generic containers. Don't agree they should be sections and not groups.
14:13:59 <LJWatson> s/Problem with generic containers. Don't agree they should be sections and not groups./Problem with generic containers. Don't agree they should be group.s./
14:14:25 <LJWatson> s/group.s/group./
14:15:15 <LJWatson> RS: The drawing components in SVG take up memory. If they're not needed, we shouldn't impose logic in the accessibility tree.
14:16:12 <LJWatson> RS: We could map them to none, unless an error condition (like tabindex or a role) was in effect.
14:16:51 <LJWatson> ABR: In SVG 2 it says tabindex is a global attribute, butthere is a warning that an element should only be focusable if it's visually rendered.
14:17:02 <LJWatson> RS: What if it isn't rendered?
14:17:09 <LJWatson> ABR: We should just ignore it.
14:18:19 <LJWatson> RS: Would like more time to work on these issues.
14:18:42 <LJWatson> JW: Any issues you think would be straight-forward to address?
14:19:02 <LJWatson> JW: Perhaps add notes in the spec to flag more difficult issues, then invite comment?
14:19:17 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:19:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:20:10 <LJWatson> @Ed feel free to tweak the minutes if another term is more suitable :)
14:20:35 <LJWatson> @ed or suggest an alternative term and I'll update the minutes.
14:21:05 <LJWatson> JW: Could add something to the spec about tabindex and rendered elements.
14:24:42 <LJWatson> ABR: [bad line] could explain tabindex shouldn't be used unless element is focusable.
14:24:51 <LJWatson> FE: Think that will confuse authors.
14:25:12 <LJWatson> JW: Prefer to see it constrained to certain elements.
14:25:12 <AmeliaBR> s/[bad line]/ We need to come up with a clear definition of which elements should not be focusable.  /
14:25:24 <LJWatson> RS: Trying to synchronise the two DOM efforts for browsers.
14:25:34 <AmeliaBR> s/is focusable/ is rendered to the screen/
14:25:49 <LJWatson> RS: Do we need more content about this before we go to FPWD?
14:26:05 <LJWatson> JW: If there's time, but wouldn't hold htings up.
14:26:17 <LJWatson> FE: Would like the FPWD to go ahead.
14:26:27 <LJWatson> ABR: The note is there. We can refine the language later.
14:27:11 <LJWatson> FE: In the wider sense will this be discussed with HTML?
14:27:26 <LJWatson> RS: It's being discussed in ARIA now, but we'll make sure it's aligned with HTML too.
14:27:33 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:27:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:28:58 <chaals> chaals has joined #svg-a11y
14:29:49 <chaals> zakim, code?
14:29:49 <Zakim> the conference code is 2742 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals
14:30:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:30:32 <chaals> zakim, [ip is me
14:30:32 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
14:31:01 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: The SVG TF agrees to publish a first public working draft, and pass to SVG and PF for approval.
14:31:10 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:31:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
14:31:13 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:31:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:31:22 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
14:31:23 <Zakim> agendum 2. "CSUN" taken up [from LJWatson]
14:31:32 <LJWatson> FE: Who is going?
14:32:01 <fesch> +1
14:32:03 <LJWatson> +1
14:32:04 <chaals> [chaals may go…]
14:32:52 <chaals> q+
14:33:04 <LJWatson> FE: Would it be worth meeting in some form?
14:33:20 <LJWatson> RS: Have asked IBM for space.
14:36:18 <LJWatson> CMN: Too late to host a formal meeting. Think it's a good idea to meet. Something in the evening, be helpful to know sooner rather than later.
14:36:41 <LJWatson> RS: Could people email me with evening availability.
14:37:19 <LJWatson> CMN: Even if it's an informal meeting, we should let people who don't attend know what happened.
14:37:27 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:38:16 <chaals> [+1 to panel]
14:38:44 <LJWatson> FE: Suggestion to have panel discussion about the future of graphics accessibility on the web.
14:39:30 <LJWatson> JW: Good idea, but late to organise it.
14:39:33 <chaals> q+
14:40:16 <LJWatson> CMN: Just get a group of people together and get a room. The sooner you tell people a time the better, can sort out other details after that.
14:40:41 <LJWatson> FE: Will look into IDM room availability.
14:41:26 <LJWatson> FE: No teleconf the week of CSUN.
14:42:03 <LJWatson> ABR: FYI - Graphics conference in Toronto at end of April. Might submit a talk on SVG accessibility.
14:42:19 <AmeliaBR> http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2015/call-for-participation/
14:43:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
14:43:06 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
14:43:06 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
14:43:13 <chaals> ack me
14:43:27 <LJWatson> zakim, next item
14:43:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Taxonomy next steps" taken up [from LJWatson]
14:43:52 <chaals> q+ to talk about scope…
14:44:09 <LJWatson> FE: Do we want to talk about the scope of the task?
14:44:22 <chaals> ack me
14:44:22 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to talk about scope…
14:44:59 <LJWatson> CMN: Mapping is good to do. Would be concerned if it was the only thing we were doing.
14:45:50 <LJWatson> CMN: Could farm author guidance to the CG - which is currently dormant on the assumption that the TF would take over where the CG left off.
14:46:11 <LJWatson> CMN: My preference is for the TF to work on author guidance.
14:46:39 <LJWatson> JW: My preference is for anything on Recc track - the taxonomy, API mappings etc.
14:46:48 <AmeliaBR> q+
14:47:12 <cpandhi> cpandhi has joined #svg-a11y
14:47:17 <LJWatson> JW: With constraints on time and resources, give priority to things other than authoring guidance.
14:47:59 <LJWatson> ABR: Disagree about priority of Recc track documents over authoring.
14:48:14 <chaals> q+ to suggest as well as impact, we should triage based on people available to do work.
14:48:20 <chaals> ack am
14:49:15 <LJWatson> ABR: The taxonomy work is a big project and will take time, whereas authoring guidance could have an impact sooner.
14:49:46 <LJWatson> FE: You think we should include authoring guidance in our scope?
14:50:03 <LJWatson> ABR: Focus should be on SVG accessibility in general.
14:50:17 <LJWatson> ABR: Not separate guidance for different disabilities.
14:50:25 <LJWatson> FE: But we should include it in the TF's work?
14:50:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:50:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
14:50:53 <LJWatson> ABR: Consult with the CG but work on it in the TF.
14:51:00 <LJWatson> CMN: +1  to Ameila.
14:51:18 <LJWatson> s/Ameila/Amelia/
14:52:11 <AmeliaBR> q+ on authoring tools
14:52:13 <LJWatson> CMN: Need people willing to work on it [bad line]. It's helpful to know who is responsible for a deliverable.
14:52:20 <LJWatson> CMN: What about authoring tools?
14:52:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/access.html
14:52:49 <chaals> s/it [bad line]/things, if we are going to claim they are actual work items/
14:53:01 <LJWatson> RS: Guidance... have section in the SVG spec on accessibility support. It's out-dated. Do we want a section in the appendix, or a separate authoring guidance doc?
14:53:29 <LJWatson> RS: Needs revamping in either case.
14:53:57 <LJWatson> ABR: There's benefit to having something in the SVG spec because people will see it.
14:54:07 <LJWatson> ABR: Could redirect through to a separate document.
14:54:35 <chaals> q+
14:54:45 <LJWatson> RS: So a section on accessibility in the main spec?
14:54:58 <LJWatson> FE: Where is the most authoring guidance given for SVG?
14:55:03 <LJWatson> RS: Not in the SVG spec.
14:55:22 <LJWatson> RS: Chaals wrote the original note.
14:56:36 <LJWatson> RS: Could create a new authoring note. Where do we want to put it though?
14:56:51 <LJWatson> RS: It wouldn't be normative content.
14:57:23 <LJWatson> JW: Would like it in the main spec. Also reference to WCAG.
14:58:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/access.html
14:58:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/intro.html
14:58:33 <chaals> q?
14:58:41 <chaals> ack ri
14:58:50 <LJWatson> RS: Could put something into the (non-normative) introduction?
14:59:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> a?
14:59:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
14:59:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack chaals
14:59:22 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest as well as impact, we should triage based on people available to do work. and to
15:00:17 <Zakim> -LJWatson
15:00:28 <LJWatson> CMN: Agree SVG authoring guidance should be connected to WCAG. We in the CG have concentrated expertise, can collect problems - what challenges do people face with SVG content, what are the causes of those challenges. That's the basis of authoring guidance.
15:04:01 <chaals> [Concrete example: in paths in the SVG spec it should say "BTW don't use this for text, use fonts. See font, and the authoring guidance]
15:04:13 <AmeliaBR> ScribeNick: AmeliaBR
15:04:39 <AmeliaBR> fe: So to be clear, we should have hints in the main SVG spec, but we should also have a separate document?
15:05:33 <AmeliaBR> chaals: Yes.  Our existing accessibility guidance is 15 years old, we need to update that.  As far as WCAG, I think we should refer to it but not be dependent on it.
15:06:03 <AmeliaBR> RS: Yes, I think that WCAG is somewhat understaffed and we don't want to put all our eggs in one basket.
15:06:09 <chaals> scribe: chaals
15:06:29 <chaals> ABR: Agree with chaals-  WCAG is great and we should refer to it but this would be practical examples of how to simplement the goals in SVG.
15:06:34 <chaals> s/simple/imple/
15:07:17 <chaals> … originally on queue regarding authoring tools. Think that is a very relevant thing for SVG - there are a number of authoring tools to think of from purely graphical tools like inkscape/illustrator
15:07:57 <chaals> … (youcan open an object and give it title/desc) - it is painful to do and author needs to know that matters, but there isn't a way to make inkscape guess what you meant…
15:08:25 <chaals> … There are also tools creating meaningful graphics - charting tools, flowchart tools, etc, where they do have a basis for providing accessibility information automatically
15:08:43 <chaals> s/providing/providing some of the/
15:09:06 <chaals> … That would provide a powerful way to enhance overall accessibility, but takes working with the tool creators.
15:09:22 <chaals> FE: Right. And you need to give guidance in a form they can easily consume.
15:09:50 <chaals> ABR: Good authoring guidance is the first step. Outreach to the semantic graphics tool developers could give a big win.
15:10:14 <chaals> JW: +1 for importance of authoring tools.
15:10:19 <fesch> q?
15:10:30 <chaals> ack am
15:10:30 <Zakim> AmeliaBR, you wanted to comment on authoring tools
15:10:31 <AmeliaBR> -AmeliaBR
15:11:24 <chaals> [FWIW I am not really intersted in the accessibility API mappings, and more interested in authoring guidance than in the taxonomy work, as a general rule.]
15:11:49 <chaals> s/intersted in/interested in focusing my effort on/
15:12:00 <chaals> FE: Seems there is resolution to have a broad scope.
15:12:03 <LJWatson> +1 to Chaals.
15:12:23 <chaals> FE: Not sure if we have consensus for an actual authoring guidance doc or not.
15:12:37 <chaals> JW: The scope we have covers the broad scope…
15:12:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
15:12:43 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:12:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:12:47 <Zakim> -Jason_White
15:12:52 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:12:59 <Zakim> -chaals
15:13:02 <Zakim> -Charu_Pandhi
15:13:08 <Zakim> -Fred_Esch
15:13:15 <chaals> Present+ chaals(LastHalf)
15:13:16 <Zakim> -AmeliaBR
15:13:18 <Zakim> WAI_SVGTF()9:00AM has ended
15:13:18 <Zakim> Attendees were Fred_Esch, Charu_Pandhi, Jason_White, LJWatson, AmeliaBR, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, [IPcaller], chaals
15:13:32 <LJWatson> LJWatson has left #svg-a11y
15:13:49 <chaals> Present+ AmeliaBR, RichS, FEsch, ChaurP, Léonie, JasonW
15:15:17 <chaals> s/ScribeNick: AmeliaBR/Scribe: AmeliaBR
15:15:25 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:15:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:17:02 <chaals> s/scribenick LJWatson/scribe: LJWatson
15:17:07 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:17:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:18:39 <chaals> s/agendum 3. "Taxonomy next steps" taken up [from LJWatson]/Task Force scope and work plan
15:18:44 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:18:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:20:18 <chaals> s/chaals, you wanted to talk about scope…/Topic: Scope and work plan of Task Force
15:20:27 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:20:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:21:10 <chaals> i/Do we want to talk about the scope of the task?/Topic: Scope and work plan of Task Force/
15:21:14 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:21:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:21:30 <chaals> rrsaagent, bye
15:24:14 <chaals> Present- chaals, RichS, FEsch, ChaurP, LJWatson
15:24:20 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:24:51 <chaals> Present- JasonW, [IPCaller]
15:24:59 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:24:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/30-svg-a11y-minutes.html chaals
17:49:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg-a11y
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