IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-01-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:47:53 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
15:47:53 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/29-mobile-a11y-irc
15:47:55 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
15:47:55 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
15:47:57 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
15:47:57 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
15:47:58 [trackbot]: Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:47:58 [trackbot]: Date: 29 January 2015
15:48:33 [Kim]: chair: Kimberly_Patch
15:49:05 [Kim]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Jan/0018.html
15:50:25 [Kim]: Agenda+ Mobile Accessibility Note – survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150126_survey/
15:50:26 [Kim]: Agenda+ Next Steps – there will be no meeting Thursday Feb 5, the next meeting will be Thursday, February 12
15:54:19 [Kim]: Regrets+ Detlev_Fischer, Marc_Johlic
15:55:39 [Kathy]: Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y
15:56:52 [Zakim]: WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
15:56:59 [Zakim]: +Kim_Patch
15:57:14 [Kathy]: Kim - I will be joining shortly
15:57:49 [Kim]: Great
15:58:59 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:59:00 [Detlev]: Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:59:23 [Zakim]: +Kathy_Wahlbin
15:59:49 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
16:00:15 [Zakim]: +Detlev
16:01:31 [Zakim]: +Alan_Smith
16:01:33 [Jan]: Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
16:01:38 [Jan]: zakim, code?
16:01:38 [Zakim]: the conference code is 6283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
16:02:31 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:02:50 [jon_avila]: jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
16:02:54 [Jan]: zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
16:02:54 [Zakim]: +Jan; got it
16:03:13 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
16:03:17 [Zakim]: + +1.703.637.aaaa
16:03:25 [Alan-Smith]: Alan-Smith has joined #mobile-A11y
16:03:36 [jon_avila]: zakim, I am aaaa
16:03:36 [Zakim]: +jon_avila; got it
16:05:03 [Kim]: Kathy: focus for this call is walk through the sections of the document that we haven't reviewed together as a group and talk about other general comments about the document as we are getting ready to send this to the WCAG working group. Deadline end of month, so this is our last call before we send it , but that doesn't mean we can't be so making changes, just to get feedback
16:06:02 [jon_avila]: I read them last week.
16:06:59 [Kim]: Kathy: we will talk about the different sections, we will pause to give people a chance to review the sections and then we'll talk about it. If you get a chance I don't need to send this to the WCAG working group until Tuesday, so we have the opportunity to edit a few things. If you have time after this call or tomorrow to get some feedback in please go through and added your feedback to...
16:07:00 [Kim]: ...the survey so we can aand in those comments and make any necessary comments
16:08:27 [Kim]: Jeanne: I need to change this to a get help document this afternoon – after 2:30 today ccomments only in survey, not on wiki
16:08:40 [Kathy]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Note:_WCAG_2.0_and_Mobile#A.2_Zoom.2FMagnification_-_READY_FOR_REVIEW
16:09:04 [jeanne]: s/get help/github
16:09:09 [Kim]: Zakim, take up next
16:09:09 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Mobile Accessibility Note – survey https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150126_survey/" taken up [from Kim]
16:09:22 [Kim]: Topic: A2 Zoom
16:11:10 [Kim]: Detlev walking through comments
16:12:02 [Zakim]: +AWK
16:12:25 [Kim]: Jan: okay with removing two lines from A1, general agreement
16:12:33 [AWK]: AWK has joined #mobile-a11y
16:15:01 [jon_avila]: q+
16:16:10 [Kim]: Detlev: some browsers like dolphin have pinch zoom to assist with reflow but in my experience most browsers don't. Maybe in the reader, reflect sizes in settings, but not browser. Best thing would be to take out font size settings of the user because often they will be ignored. Also controls commonly don't get up to 200% anyway. That's the issue
16:17:03 [Kim]: John: Safari does follow, if you use Apple fonts Safari will follow that at least with IOS8, but it may be limited, I'm fine with language saying that. As far as controls for pages. We should be more explicit – up to 200% would be one of the options
16:17:36 [Kim]: Jan: visa requirements on content authors. User agents have own requirements under UAAG 2. They should do their job in the author should do theirs
16:18:28 [Kim]: Detlev: really aimed at developers – may be areas where user agents take care of this, but very uneven. It's not commonly available to users
16:19:15 [Kim]: Jan: proposal to support pinch zoom because that's the most widely supported thing?
16:19:34 [Kim]: Detlev: I would put that first and mentioned that there are browsers that support pinch zoom with text reflow
16:19:54 [Kim]: Kathy: we do say that – this is most commonly met by pinch zoom – we have some of that but we could clarify it further.
16:20:08 [jon_avila]: q-
16:20:29 [Kim]: Jan: made change on wiki
16:21:51 [Kim]: Detlev: better now, but that might not be the best way to put it. The main thing was the thing allowing page controls and system font size should be qualified – it could work but in many cases it won't work, especially for system size settings which are not for many browsers
16:22:41 [Kim]: Jon: we can solve the text size one by putting in at least 200%. The other I'm fine with qualifying – when supported by the user agent
16:23:02 [Kim]: Detlev: will not be supported by many common browsers at least so developers know that it's not well supported
16:23:54 [Kim]: Jan: 1.4.4 paragraphs are dense. My takeaway is developer will say what you want me to do
16:24:05 [Kim]: Kathy: bullets?
16:25:18 [Kim]: Kathy: Bullets that listed out the different ways, notes to quantify what we want the developer to do
16:26:06 [Kim]: Kathy: where it says to meet this requirement, instead this can be meant using one of the following methods, bullets, below that notes as far as qualifying limitations as far as user support and limitations on the devices
16:26:40 [Kathy]: SC 1.4.4 requires text to be resizable without assistive technology up to 200 percent. To meet this requirement content must not prevent text magnification by the user.
16:27:25 [Kathy]: SC 1.4.4 requires text to be resizable without assistive technology up to 200 percent. To meet this requirement content must not prevent text magnification by the user. The following methods can be used:
16:27:40 [Kathy]: - ensure that the browser pinch zoom is not blocked by the page's viewport meta element so that it can be used to zoom the page to 200%
16:28:08 [Kathy]: - support for system fonts that follow platform level user preferences for text size
16:28:15 [Kathy]: - providing on-page controls to change the text size
16:29:30 [Kim]: Detlev: should the note be part of the bullet so it's kept together
16:34:40 [Kim]: Detlev: one more point that might be best practice– Ensure that custom dialogues and other pop-up windows that are intended for desktop browsers are rendered in a usable form in mobile browsers
16:34:52 [Kim]: Jon: it's an issue, is it an accessibility issue
16:35:10 [Kim]: Jan: weird to call out a specific type of UI pattern
16:35:25 [Kim]: Detlev: skip for now
16:35:37 [Kim]: Kathy: any other comments on section a?
16:36:00 [Kim]: Kathy: section B we had done last week, any major objections now?
16:36:12 [Kim]: Topic: section B
16:37:01 [Kim]: Detlev: 2.4.3 focus order, section B1
16:37:18 [Kim]: Kathy: level a
16:38:15 [Kim]: Detlev: Touch gestures taken for granted?
16:38:17 [Kim]: Jan: example shake phone, not great way, should also have alternatives
16:38:55 [Kim]: Detlev: keyboard is the only alternative
16:38:57 [Kim]: Jan: can add touch
16:39:16 [Kim]: Detlev: B5 minor rewording
16:41:40 [Kim]: Jan: redundant wording "should position interactive elements where they can be easily reached when the device is held in different positions". Already asking them to consider it.
16:41:57 [Kim]: Jan: remove the second reference
16:44:05 [Kim]: Kathy: we need it if we are saying the last paragraph. Maybe sentence in between to tie the last two paragraphs together. The point of this is to say we should consider where we are placing buttons so it's easy to access, but we shouldn't just be designing for right-hand use, we need to be considering all the different placements
16:44:31 [Kim]: Detlev: second paragraph on top then, basic qualification
16:44:40 [jeanne]: +1
16:45:16 [Kim]: Topic: C3
16:47:06 [Kim]: Detlev: wording "before the page scroll" confusing.
16:47:36 [Kim]: Detlev: minor quibble, can move on
16:48:03 [Kim]: Alan: typo in C1
16:48:22 [Kim]: Topic: C4 Grouping operable elements that perform the same action
16:48:57 [Kim]: Detlev: putting link element around several elements would be a good fit, has some problems with screen readers. If there is some technique like that maybe we should reference it.
16:49:45 [Kim]: Andrew checking to see if there is a technique to group elements in HTML 5
16:50:28 [AWK]: just this one: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H97.html :)
16:50:34 [Kim]: Jan: changing to reduces the number of elements
16:50:50 [Kim]: Topic: C6
16:51:43 [Kim]: Detlev: hint text in voiceover – is there a gesture
16:52:06 [Kim]: Topic: C7
16:52:58 [Kim]: Kathy: no content now, we can remove and come back later – any objections
16:52:59 [Kim]: Moving to discussion page
16:53:37 [Kim]: Topic: D1
16:54:00 [Kim]: Kathy: D sections just written, could add information, but just trying to get some information out now
16:54:56 [Kim]: Detlev: important to differentiate between keyboard notes– form etc. – and keyboard settings, option for alternative keyboards. There in here somehow but not clearly marked or separated.
16:55:32 [Kim]: Jan: I separated the last sentence
16:55:58 [Kim]: Kathy: any WCAG references for this?
16:56:51 [Kim]: Kathy: instruction because if we have the different keyboards from a usability standpoint it's important that users know what different data they can enter
16:57:21 [Kim]: Kathy: should be just refer back to C6 there – providing instructions, but that's just for touchscreen we don't have it for keyboard
16:57:53 [Kim]: Jan: good to tie this document back to WCAG 2, normative
16:59:04 [Kim]: Kathy: comments on D2 or D3?
16:59:20 [Detlev]: distinguish between "offering default input by suggesting input entered earlier and stored by the browser" and "information available in a particular context (such as current date, time or location)"?
17:00:04 [AWK]: q+
17:00:31 [Kim]: Andrew: not clear how making the right keyword for numbers or characters come up relates to 3.3.2
17:00:39 [Kim]: Kathy: clear instructions to let users know what type of data needs to be entered
17:00:56 [Kim]: Jan: the format of data – example date your year, month month etc.
17:01:22 [Kim]: Andrew: I totally agree, I just wonder whether this is one of those gap things
17:01:59 [Kim]: Kathy: just a side note, keyboard changing automatically different type of keyboard can be difficult for users to orient, if they are aware of the type of data, but we can address that later
17:02:09 [AWK]: q-
17:02:18 [Kim]: Jan: I took it out
17:03:05 [Kim]: Kathy: any other last comments?
17:03:44 [Kim]: Kathy: if you have further comments please put them into the survey. Jeanne is going to be moving this over to Github.
17:03:54 [Kim]: Kathy: if there is something critical that you think should be changed before we get it to the working group let us know
17:04:10 [jon_avila]: Thanks you, I have to jump off.
17:04:14 [Zakim]: -jon_avila
17:04:26 [Zakim]: -Alan_Smith
17:04:27 [Kim]: Kathy: great job, really happy with what we have. Great start to getting the techniques ready and also just getting a note out there to provide some additional guidance on mobile accessibility. Thank you for all your hard work on this..
17:04:53 [Zakim]: -[IPcaller]
17:05:12 [Zakim]: -Jan
17:05:14 [Kim]: Andrew: link any instruction or guidance to facilitate feedback, that would be great. Also what timing we are hoping for.
17:05:27 [Henny]: Apologies, my connection dropped.
17:05:32 [Kim]: Kathy: trying to get this published by CSUN
17:05:53 [Kim]: Andrew: good to know steps backing up deadline
17:07:08 [Kim]: Jeanne: get it to WCAG tomorrow morning. One week for comment, one week for working group to fix, another week for WCAG to look at.
17:07:17 [Kim]: Kathy: finalized by the 20th
17:07:24 [Kim]: Kathy: this is also being published as a draft – that's important to note
17:08:02 [Zakim]: -AWK
17:08:05 [Zakim]: -Kathy_Wahlbin
17:08:08 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
17:08:09 [Zakim]: -Kim_Patch
17:08:12 [Zakim]: -Detlev
17:08:13 [Zakim]: WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
17:08:13 [Zakim]: Attendees were Kim_Patch, Kathy_Wahlbin, Jeanne, Detlev, Alan_Smith, Jan, [IPcaller], +1.703.637.aaaa, jon_avila, AWK
17:11:15 [Kim]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:11:15 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/29-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
17:11:46 [Kim]: rrsagent, bye
17:11:46 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items