IRC log of webapps on 2015-01-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-webapps-irc

00:59:54 [Travis]

RRSAgent: this meeting spans midnight

01:00:05 [Travis]

Zakim, who is on the phone

01:00:05 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Travis

01:00:14 [Travis]

Zakim, this is D3E

01:00:14 [Zakim]

ok, Travis; that matches RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM

01:00:20 [Travis]

Zakim, who is on the phone

01:00:20 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Travis

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01:00:44 [masayuki]

Travis: Hi

01:01:49 [Zakim]

+??P1

01:01:52 [masayuki]

garykac: Hi,

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01:02:42 [garykac]

masayuki: Hello

01:03:28 [garykac]

Travis is having trouble with IRC. He's working on a fix right now.

01:04:06 [masayuki]

Oh, I see.

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01:05:27 [Travis_]

We have a few things to follow up on from last meeting.

01:05:44 [Travis_]

Spec name change is one

01:06:01 [Travis_]

3 bugs from Masayuki blocking Gecko progress

01:06:15 [Travis_]

Removal of beforeinput and friends from the spec

01:06:37 [garykac]

And renaming and moving the spec.

01:06:48 [garykac]

Oops! I see that was already mentioned

01:07:01 [Travis_]

Topic: Spec name change

01:07:09 [Travis_]

garykac: Not done yet.

01:07:13 [Travis_]

... will do next.

01:07:28 [Travis_]

... hesitated since there are redirects to old one, etc.

01:07:37 [Travis_]

... renaming and moving to new URL?

01:07:41 [Travis_]

... can't remember the details.

01:07:56 [Travis_]

... Are we going to move it to D4E?

01:08:00 [Travis_]

... [and other questions]

01:08:39 [Travis_]

So, latest TR published is here: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/

01:08:54 [Travis_]

So, the shortname is "DOM-Level-3-Events"

01:09:15 [Travis_]

Editor's draft is here: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3-Events.html

01:09:29 [Travis_]

So, under HG's "dom3events" folder.

01:10:09 [garykac]

Basically, we need to agree on the exact order that we do things in.

01:10:14 [Travis_]

One thing we should do is re-publish the current spec with a re-direct to it's new home

01:10:32 [Travis_]

So, unordered list first :)

01:10:41 [Travis_]

* Modifiy Editor's draft to change name

01:10:58 [Travis_]

* Copy editor's draft new location

01:11:30 [garykac]

* Decide where the editor's draft should live: the current D3E, current UIE, or a new place

01:11:33 [Travis_]

* Change current published doc's "editor's draft" link to point to new location.

01:12:00 [Travis_]

* Publish new draft in TR with new name and valid links

01:12:22 [Travis_]

* Update bug database component name?

01:12:59 [garykac]

I'm going to dig up the email where this was last discussed to remind myself what it says...

01:14:14 [garykac]

Philip suggested publishing an updated version (new name) and having *both* shortnames point to it.

01:15:33 [Travis_]

OK, well, first step is probably "modify editor's draft" so that we can do that :-)

01:15:50 [Travis_]

As for location, where do we put the editor's draft?

01:15:51 [garykac]

We need to make sure that both ED links point to the correct editor's draft

01:16:55 [garykac]

I think it makes sense to keep using the dom3events location

01:16:59 [Travis_]

I don't mind the mercurial path staying D3E (vesus a new location or D4E)

01:17:26 [garykac]

OK. so that means that we rename dom3events in-place

01:17:42 [Travis_]

So, scrap the "Copy editor's draft to new location"

01:17:51 [Travis_]

garykac: New shortname?

01:17:59 [Travis_]

... nope, it'll be UIEvents

01:19:59 [Travis_]

Do you want to change the name of the file in mercurial?

01:20:51 [garykac]

I don't think it's necessary, but we can do that later if we need to.

01:20:53 [Travis_]

garykac: I would avoid doing that now--we can always do it later.

01:21:37 [Travis_]

Topic: beforeinput removal

01:21:37 [garykac]

Next topic

01:21:47 [garykac]

I removed beforeinput and input from the spec.

01:22:01 [garykac]

But we still have a few links that need to be updated

01:22:10 [garykac]

But I don't have a real spec to link them to.

01:22:16 [garykac]

This makes me sad

01:22:51 [garykac]

I'm waiting until we have a real link before fixing them - I'm assuming that we can get the links soon.

01:23:50 [garykac]

Ben's unofficial spec is at: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/input-events.html

01:24:05 [Travis_]

http://w3c.github.io/selection-api/

01:24:16 [masayuki]

Where the input spec go to? .isComposing is important and useful. So, it should be defined by somebody.

01:24:38 [Travis_]

Oh, I don't think my link was right...

01:25:13 [masayuki]

Oh, I see, bad timing...

01:25:18 [garykac]

The link I sent is an "unofficial draft", so I'd like to see a more semi-official draft before fixing up all the links.

01:25:42 [garykac]

masayuki: isComposing is part of the input spec

01:25:59 [garykac]

They took their initial draft from the work we did

01:26:07 [masayuki]

garykac: Yeah, thanks, I confirmed.

01:26:49 [Travis_]

Topic: 3 bugs for masayuki

01:27:06 [Travis_]

(a new children's story)

01:27:19 [Travis_]

j/k

01:27:58 [Travis_]

bug 24739, 26019 and 26218

01:30:42 [masayuki]

I updated bug 26218 now.

01:30:42 [Travis_]

... [familiarizing ourselves with the bugs again]

01:31:38 [masayuki]

Our Linux's module owner, karlt, doesn't like adding "Super" and "Hyper" to the modifier key, but I like them.

01:31:47 [garykac]

So, for 24739

01:31:58 [garykac]

Which keys are missing to support the Sun keyboard?

01:32:32 [garykac]

Props is there...

01:32:40 [masayuki]

garykac: its label is "Props".

01:32:51 [masayuki]

USB keycode indicates "Menu".

01:33:23 [garykac]

vs. ContextMenu

01:33:43 [garykac]

So, do we need Menu and ContextMenu (with Props mapping to Menu)?

01:33:45 [masayuki]

But it's different from "ContextMenu" and Sun's keyboard also has "ContextMenu" key. Therefore, we should provide different name for "Props".

01:33:59 [masayuki]

It will provide a way to distinguish the keys.

01:35:27 [garykac]

Sun has ContextMenu and Props. But if Props -> Menu, isn't that sufficient.

01:35:29 [masayuki]

I guess "Props" is a good name? "Menu" sounds like not good.

01:35:46 [garykac]

This assumes that we add Menu (in a way that clearly distinguishes it from ContextMenu)

01:36:10 [garykac]

masayuki: Yeah. "Menu" sounds to generic and will be probably be mis-used.

01:36:38 [garykac]

ContextMenu and Props are what we currently have in the spec.

01:36:46 [masayuki]

garykac: Yeah, it must be mis-used.

01:37:34 [masayuki]

Oh, you added "Props" already?

01:37:48 [masayuki]

https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3Events-code.html#code-Props

01:37:49 [garykac]

So, it sounds like the current spec has the definitions is needs? Is there anything else that has to happen for this bug?

01:38:16 [masayuki]

garykac: just close it ;-)

01:38:20 [garykac]

masayuki: yes, 'props' is in the legacy section and has a bunch of other Sun keys

01:38:22 [garykac]

Yay!

01:40:10 [Travis_]

On to bug 26019

01:40:20 [garykac]

OK, 26019... (reading bug)

01:40:50 [masayuki]

I also filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27902 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27903

01:41:39 [masayuki]

Olli, our DOM event module owner, doesn't like the dictionary name and attribute names.

01:43:32 [garykac]

I hadn't seen those names before. Perhaps UIEventModifierInit

01:44:10 [Travis_]

Ah, I recall the issue with 26019.

01:44:27 [Travis_]

In DOM4, the way to process an event initializer is laid out: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#constructing-events

01:44:39 [Travis_]

Step 4 basically maps names onto properties.

01:45:09 [Travis_]

However, for these modifier key states, there's no corresponding attribute name on the event object.

01:45:28 [Travis_]

So, I needed to define how to do this in the UIEvents/D3E spec.

01:46:36 [Travis_]

(It's just some simple prose that describes the mapping.)

01:47:15 [Travis_]

I can take 26019. It's a relatively small change.

01:47:47 [Travis_]

Related to the bug 27903, garykac and I don't have a strong reason not to change the names.

01:47:52 [garykac]

travis: and 27092 and 27903 seem related to 26019 (naming suggestions)_

01:48:13 [Travis_]

(double negatives!)

01:48:37 [Travis_]

Now, 26218.

01:51:05 [masayuki]

Using "Super" and "Hyper" and adding "SystemAccel" is my best idea. But comment 5 and comment 6 disagree with the approach.

01:53:20 [masayuki]

He said "similar to 'OS'". But "similar" must cause incompatibility between browsers at mapping them...

01:59:02 [Travis_]

garykac and I are musing about how Mac is unique... :)

02:00:26 [Travis_]

We already have "Accel" which covers the Ctrl (windows), Meta (mac), and Super (linux)

02:00:49 [Travis_]

garykac will now scribe what he thinks.

02:01:01 [masayuki]

Travis_: no, Accel on Linux should be Control

02:01:33 [garykac]

I was originally thinking that the 'OS' key would catch the Windows key and the Mac Command key, but that it not the case. (Mac Command -> Meta)

02:02:03 [garykac]

Given that, it would be very nice to have a single key that captures Win and Command. SystemAccel fits that purpose.

02:02:51 [masayuki]

My suggestion is, SystemAccel should be OS on Windows and Super/Hyper on Linux. Not existing on Mac.

02:03:28 [masayuki]

Because Command is used for shortcut key. It should be Accel.

02:03:47 [garykac]

For the Mac, I think that the Command key should be in both Accel and SystemAccel.

02:04:12 [garykac]

It we want people to adopt SystemAccel as the platform neutral way of getting system accel keys, then it needs to work on all platforms.

02:05:20 [garykac]

So, I will add the SystemAccel definition to the spec based on the discussion we had back in July.

02:05:31 [masayuki]

I'm not use Mac usually. Does Command key is also used for system's shortcut key?

02:05:35 [garykac]

And I think we're out of time

02:06:18 [garykac]

masayuki: yes. e.g., Cmd-Tab to switch apps

02:06:35 [Travis_]

So, we should meet again in two weeks?

02:06:53 [garykac]

The Command key is the main shortcut key for app and system shortcuts

02:07:01 [garykac]

two weeks sounds good.

02:07:11 [masayuki]

garykac: Cmd-Tab example is conflict with Alt-Tab on Windows, though. But if it's so, I don't disagree with mapping Command key as SystemAccel.

02:07:29 [masayuki]

I'm okay two weeks.

02:07:33 [Travis_]

Fantastic. Thanks everyone!

02:07:45 [Travis_]

Is this a wrap?

02:07:46 [masayuki]

Thank you!

02:08:21 [garykac]

masayuki:

02:08:28 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

02:08:32 [Zakim]

-??P1

02:08:33 [Zakim]

RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has ended

02:08:33 [Zakim]

Attendees were [Microsoft]

02:08:45 [Travis_]

RRSAgent: make the minutes

02:08:45 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-webapps-minutes.html Travis_

02:08:52 [Travis_]

RRSAgent: make logs public

02:09:01 [garykac]

oops! never mind. See you in 2 weeks.

02:09:19 [masayuki]

garykac: Okay, see you!

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15:19:52 [artb]

oh dear, YA `WTF were you thinking dropping synchronous from XHR.open` thread https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015JanMar/0383.html

15:20:22 [artb]

reply from Frederik seems to say it all https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015JanMar/0385.html

15:25:17 [Yves]

yeah old-style backend software is still running, most probably in cobol

15:31:05 [gsnedders]

chaals: Look, I know you're a medievalist, but I didn't think you /were/ medieval :)

15:33:41 [jgraham]

All fear Professional Software

15:55:23 [chaals]

gsnedders: before your forefathers were born…

16:00:48 [artb]

sgsnedders is like `wtf is a punch card?` ;)

16:01:00 [artb]

or FORTRAN

16:01:19 [gsnedders]

I've written FORTRAN!

16:01:37 [artb]

come to think of it, I'm not surprised

16:02:02 [gsnedders]

There's enough physics/maths libraries around that heavily use FORTRAN.

16:02:13 [jgraham]

gsnedders: Proper FORTRAN or Fortran 90/95/whatever the other one got called?

16:02:44 [gsnedders]

jgraham: ok, recent FORTRAN, not oldsk00l FORTRAN

16:02:53 [gsnedders]

And that /is/ weird, I will admit.

16:04:30 [jgraham]

But eventually realised that no one else understood it either

16:05:12 [gsnedders]

Worst programming exercise we ever had at uni involved FORTRAN. Mostly because we had to parse it. And weren't given a grammar. And were told to work it out from the code we were given. And were then assessed based on unit tests including syntax we hadn't seen.

16:05:33 [gsnedders]

Assessing stuff by unit tests passed % is nonsense, basically.

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16:11:19 [chaals]

gsnedders: a fair amount of assessing stuff at Uni is nonsense, basically.

16:13:17 [gsnedders]

chaals: yeah, but that was esspecially nonsense; I got an E (on a scale where a D is the requirement for a lowest class degree) for something that most lecturers would've given me an A or B :(

16:13:32 [gsnedders]

tl;dr: uni's bullshit and I'm glad to be away from it

16:13:45 [chaals]

There is some value in it…

16:14:17 [chaals]

…like proving you can put up with a proper job, and deserve a salary even during the week of goofing off, instead of being told to go make your own money…

16:14:24 [chaals]

…but…

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12:00:43 [artb]

tobie, does http://w3c.github.io/IndexedDB/ return the latest IndexedDB ED for you? /cc MikeSmith

12:27:51 [tobie]

artb: I'm confused as to what happened, tbh.

12:34:09 [tobie]

I must have mistyped the URL and got redirected to https://github.com/w3c/IndexedDB instead.

12:34:19 [tobie]

It's all good now.

12:34:22 [tobie]

Again sorry.

12:36:24 [artb]

tobie, ok; great, and thanks for alerting us to the original problem!

12:37:29 [tobie]

artb: np. It was interested. :)

12:38:07 [tobie]

(I needed it fixed for a script I'm working on.)

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12:38:27 [tobie]

artb: what's the status on the f2f?

12:39:10 [artb]

tobie, good Q; I don't know

12:39:24 [artb]

I think some of the decision makers have been OOO

12:40:33 [tobie]

Oh.

12:40:37 [tobie]

I see.

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