18:58:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:58:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-shapes-irc
18:58:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
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18:58:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:58:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
18:58:11 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:58:11 <trackbot> Date: 22 January 2015
18:58:28 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has now started
18:58:36 <Zakim> +Dimitris
18:58:50 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
18:58:54 <Zakim> +??P0
18:59:08 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P0 is me
18:59:08 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
18:59:41 <Labra> Labra has joined #shapes
18:59:50 <Zakim> +Arnaud
19:00:00 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
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19:00:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:00:38 <Arnaud> zakim, ipcaller is labra
19:00:38 <Zakim> +labra; got it
19:01:00 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
19:01:13 <Zakim> +[IBM]
19:01:23 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me
19:01:23 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
19:01:59 <Zakim> +??P1
19:02:28 <Arnaud> zakim, ??P1 is eric
19:02:28 <Zakim> +eric; got it
19:02:39 <kcoyle> phone system is acting badly
19:02:53 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
19:02:59 <Zakim> +pfps
19:03:07 <Arnaud> zakim, eric is ericp
19:03:07 <Zakim> +ericp; got it
19:03:13 <Zakim> +kcoyle
19:03:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:03:41 <Arnaud> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2015.01.22
19:03:46 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
19:04:27 <hknublau> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:04:27 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
19:04:47 <SimonSteyskal> scribe: SimonSteyskal
19:05:15 <SimonSteyskal> TOPIC: Admin
19:05:14 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 15 January Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/15-shapes-minutes.html
19:05:17 <pfps> minutes looked OK to me
19:05:33 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: minutes approved
19:06:02 <SimonSteyskal> Resolved: Approve minutes of the 15 January Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2015/01/15-shapes-minutes.html
19:06:18 <pfps> Next week is AAAI, so it is unlikely that I will be able to attend.  David Martin should be able to take my place
19:06:39 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: any problems with Feb. 29th as potential telco date?
19:06:55 <SimonSteyskal> ... I may not be available, in which case Eric will chair
19:07:20 <SimonSteyskal> TOPIC: Tracking of Actions and Issues
19:07:52 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: I see one action pending review -> arthur has to describe resource shapes and revised his previous proposal
19:07:53 <Arnaud> ACTION-7?
19:07:53 <trackbot> ACTION-7 -- Arthur Ryman to For resource shapes -- due 2015-01-15 -- PENDINGREVIEW
19:07:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/actions/7
19:08:43 <Arnaud> ACTION-6?
19:08:43 <trackbot> ACTION-6 -- Simon Steyskal to And karen will be the editors. they will develop the document by ?? -- due 2015-01-15 -- OPEN
19:08:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/actions/6
19:09:01 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: peter will close action-7 if he's satisfied with the description
19:09:21 <SimonSteyskal> ... simon and karen are currently working on the ucr document
19:09:26 <ericP> -> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-ucr/ UC&R document in progress
19:09:28 <pfps> can there be a pointer on the main wiki page to the nascent document?
19:09:52 <andimou> andimou has joined #shapes
19:10:13 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/pendingreview
19:10:14 <SimonSteyskal> ... a set of issues is marked as pending review and a quite few are still left
19:10:44 <Arnaud> ISSUE-6?
19:10:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-6 -- Story S2 - upgrade ShExC part -- pending review
19:10:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/6
19:10:46 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: i looked at those that had some activity and closed them if appropriate
19:11:54 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
19:11:55 <SimonSteyskal> ericP: didnt notify peter about changes
19:12:02 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
19:12:02 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
19:12:04 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
19:12:04 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
19:12:07 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: didn't see links to OSLC
19:13:20 <Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#S2:_What.27s_the_name_of_that_person.3F
19:13:46 <ArthurRyman> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#ShExC
19:13:49 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: i have some problems with refreshing the page, i didn't see the updated page
19:14:50 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
19:14:50 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
19:15:25 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: i followed the link in the issues and that includes some version infos which links to old versions of the page
19:15:29 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
19:15:29 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
19:16:08 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: we can close issue 6?
19:16:18 <SimonSteyskal> ... issue 6 is closed
19:16:20 <Arnaud> ISSUE-18?
19:16:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-18 -- S35 needs to state what constraints are required -- pending review
19:16:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/18
19:16:51 <SimonSteyskal> Resolved: ISSUE-6 is closed
19:16:59 <ArthurRyman> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#Response_to_ISSUE-18
19:18:01 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: a lot of comments, so maybe we should clean those up to help editors
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19:19:02 <ArthurRyman> An informal specification for valid RDF graphs is as follows: "Let X be the URI of an access control list information resource. Its RDF graph must must contain X as a resource node. X must have type acc:AccessContextList. X must have a string-valued dcterms:title property and a string-valued dcterms:description property. In addition, the graph may contain zero or more other resource nodes (URIs) of type acc:AccessContext. Each of these other nodes[CUT]
19:19:08 <Zakim> +Tony
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19:19:51 <ericP> -> http://w3.org/brief/NDI4 disconencted graph example
19:20:07 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: i think it just needs some editorial work to make it look like an user story again
19:20:14 <ericP> q+ to ask if this is what arthur has in mind
19:20:36 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: ArthurRyman should clean that story up
19:20:56 <SimonSteyskal> Resolved: ISSUE-18 and ISSUE-19 are closed
19:21:26 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: once arthur is done he should notify the group
19:21:32 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:21:32 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if this is what arthur has in mind
19:22:30 <pfps> The email discussion had SPIN and OWL Constraints solutions in the email thread, I think.
19:22:51 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: we will discuss the disconnected graph issue at the end of the meeting (if we have time)
19:23:11 <pfps> ISSUE-20 is can also be closed I think, given then changes to S2
19:23:27 <SimonSteyskal> ... those who own a story against an issue was raised please fix them!
<SimonSteyskal> TOPIC: User Stories and Use Cases
<SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: Simon and Karen are working on a first draft which is in github
19:23:43 <SimonSteyskal> +q
19:23:50 <Arnaud> ack SimonSteyskal
19:23:53 <pfps> This is a first editor's draft, not working draft, right?
19:23:56 <ericP> -> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-ucr/ live view of UC&R doc
19:24:33 <pfps> The "repo" link isn't working for me.
19:25:31 <Arnaud> looks like I got the wrong link to the repo somehow
19:26:00 <kcoyle> q+
19:26:05 <ericP> https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-ucr/
19:26:11 <ericP> http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/data-shapes-ucr/
19:26:34 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:27:09 <pfps> That's a sufficient condition for not being resolved.
19:28:11 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: all stories that have no open issues can be assumed to be stable
19:28:19 <SimonSteyskal> TOPIC: Requirements
19:29:03 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: we have agreed on voting on requirements (whether they are supporting them or not)
19:29:36 <SimonSteyskal> ... those which have no objections will be discussed in the telco
19:30:07 <SimonSteyskal> ... next week we will go through a list of reqs and discuss/approve  them
19:30:58 <SimonSteyskal> ... should we discuss any specific requirement?
19:31:28 <pfps> I'll take some of the guilt here.
19:32:06 <SimonSteyskal> ericP: there were a couple of issues on specific reqs
19:32:15 <pfps> q+
19:32:41 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:32:46 <SimonSteyskal> ... question on whether everthing should depend on classed or shapes
19:34:28 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: i dont think you can change "every" occurance of class into shape as some requirements don't allow that (discussing https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Declarations_of_Property_Comment_at_Class)
19:36:14 <SimonSteyskal> ericP: if we have n different ways to trigger validation, then this is one of them (associate shapes with classes)
19:38:50 <SimonSteyskal> ericP: it is our expectation that there are 3 ways to declare that in resource shapes: (i) directly by the instance(instance shape), (ii) if instance of type foo and foo is associated with shape (value shape), (iii) service description document thats associated with a resource shape.
19:39:33 <Dimitris> oslc:describes
19:40:33 <SimonSteyskal> ArthurRyman: you start with a node and look at the value of a property which links to a shape -> value shape
19:41:21 <SimonSteyskal> (discussion is actually about https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements#Declarations_of_Member_Properties_at_Classes )
19:42:13 <pfps> q+
19:43:01 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: we should mostly discuss things via email since we have only little time during the call
19:43:07 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:43:43 <SimonSteyskal> pfps: at some time the requirements should solve all the user stories
19:44:22 <pfps> I agree that contributors of user stories should be checking that the requirements solve their story.
19:45:15 <pfps> I some sense the contributor of a story is totally on the hook to ensure that their story progresses.
19:46:01 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: if one has too many user stories and cannot cope with all the effort in looking at the requirements -> tell us
<SimonSteyskal> topic: LDOM / Holger's proposal
19:46:35 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: Holger came up with a new proposal of a potential shapes syntax/language
19:46:58 <SimonSteyskal> ... (link to LDOM primer http://spinrdf.org/ldomprimer.html)
19:47:36 <SimonSteyskal> hknublau: link to slides -> http://spinrdf.org/ldom-2015-01-22.pptx (just a proposal)
19:48:07 <SimonSteyskal> ... tries to cover the essential features of other proposals (shexc, spin, ...)
19:48:52 <SimonSteyskal> ... it doesnt use the OWL vocabulary in general (but features can be added by using constraints)
19:49:11 <SimonSteyskal> ... my goal was to provide a starting point we can use and we can discuss about
19:49:57 <SteveS> LiDS => Linked Data Shapes
19:50:02 <SimonSteyskal> ... finding a name for such a language is rather difficult; idea is to reach as much communities as possible
19:51:19 <pfps> It seems strange to use "L" but have the main example not having any linking.
19:51:38 <SimonSteyskal> ... some basic terms of rdfs are reused
19:52:17 <SimonSteyskal> ... (discusses/explaines examples on the slides)
19:52:40 <SimonSteyskal> s/explaines/explains
19:53:14 <SimonSteyskal> hknublau: there is also a possibility to use generic constraints
19:53:44 <SimonSteyskal> ... just like spin it allows to define templates
19:54:05 <SimonSteyskal> ... to encapsulate complex definitions (more readable)
19:54:17 <SimonSteyskal> ... language is selfcontained and extensible
19:54:52 <SimonSteyskal> ... allows recursive shape defintions
19:55:03 <SimonSteyskal> s/defintions/definitions
19:55:37 <SimonSteyskal> ... datatype constraints, derived properties, etc. (on last slide depicted)
19:56:05 <ArthurRyman> nice work Holger!
19:56:19 <ericP> q+
19:56:38 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:56:39 <SimonSteyskal> yes, thanks for your effort!
19:56:40 <pfps> It would be interesting to have a detailed comparison between this and RDFUnit.
19:56:40 <SteveS> looks good (the name isn’t great but not sure I care too much in the end)
19:56:45 <hsolbrig> q+
19:57:32 <Arnaud> ack hsolbrig
19:58:32 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:58:43 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:58:51 <SimonSteyskal> hsolbrig: template based approach seems interesting but has to be precisely defined and thought through (semantically)
19:59:05 <Arnaud> STRAWPOLL: Does the LDOM proposal look to you like a good starting point?
19:59:26 <hsolbrig> +1
19:59:27 <ericP> straw response: +1
19:59:33 <hknublau> +1
19:59:33 <ArthurRyman> +1
19:59:33 <SteveS> +1
19:59:38 <kcoyle> +1
19:59:39 <pfps> to early to tell
19:59:41 <Dimitris> +1
19:59:43 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:59:46 <Labra> +1
19:59:51 <pfps> s/to/too/
19:59:56 <TallTed> +1
20:01:19 <SimonSteyskal> Arnaud: the sooner we can make the decision on what approach to follow the better
20:01:41 <Zakim> -pfps
20:01:42 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
20:01:43 <Zakim> -Tony
20:01:44 <Zakim> -SteveS
20:01:44 <Zakim> -kcoyle
20:01:46 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
20:01:47 <Zakim> -hknublau
20:01:50 <Zakim> -Dimitris
20:01:51 <Zakim> -Arnaud
20:01:53 <Zakim> -ericp
20:01:58 <Zakim> -TallTed
20:02:47 <Zakim> -labra
20:02:48 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:02:48 <Zakim> Attendees were Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, labra, Arthur_Ryman, SteveS, pfps, ericp, kcoyle, hknublau, TallTed, Tony
<SimonSteyskal> Present: Dimitris, SimonSteyskal, Arnaud, labra, Arthur_Ryman, SteveS, pfps, ericp, kcoyle, hknublau, TallTed, Tony
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