15:57:37 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-html-a11y-irc
15:57:38 paulc has joined #html-a11y
15:57:39 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:39 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:57:41 agenda?
15:57:41 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:57:42 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:42 Date: 22 January 2015
15:57:43 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 57 minutes ago
15:57:53 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has now started
15:58:00 +JF
15:58:14 Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:58:19 LJWatson has joined #html-a11y
15:59:01 Chair: Chaals
15:59:02 agenda+ anything else for the agenda?
15:59:02 agenda+ longdesc news?
15:59:02 agenda+ alt note update: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/296
15:59:02 agenda+ panel controls - http://bkardell.github.io/common-panel/
15:59:02 agenda+ transcripts (if we have time) - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Full_Transcript
15:59:38 +[IPcaller]
15:59:50 zakim, [ip is me
15:59:50 +chaals; got it
15:59:50 plh has joined #html-a11y
16:00:03 +??P14
16:00:10 zakim, ??P14 is me
16:00:10 +janina; got it
16:00:20 +[IPcaller]
16:00:39 +[Microsoft]
16:00:46 +Judy
16:00:48 zakim, [Microsoft] is me
16:00:48 +paulc; got it
16:00:49 zakim, [ip is Léonie
16:00:50 +Plh
16:00:50 +Léonie; got it
16:02:39 +Adrian_Roselli
16:02:45 +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:02:48 scribe LJWatson
16:02:50 rubys has joined #html-a11y
16:03:01 +Sam
16:03:05 zakim, who is on the phone?
16:03:05 On the phone I see JF, chaals, janina, Léonie, paulc, Judy, Plh, Adrian_Roselli, Joanmarie_Diggs, Sam
16:03:17 aardrian has joined #html-a11y
16:03:20 zakim, next item
16:03:20 agendum 1. "anything else for the agenda?" taken up [from chaals]
16:03:40 Q+
16:03:55 CN: HTML WG face to face in April. Currently a poll for location choices.
16:04:14 ack jf
16:04:25 +ShaneM
16:04:38 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html-spring-2015/
16:04:46 q+
16:05:02 q?
16:05:03 ack plh
16:05:45 JF: What is the status of Web VTT? Is it officially a W3C spec that's being worked on?
16:05:47 JS: It's been in CR since November. David Singer is concerned there hasn't been enough review.
16:06:02 http://www.w3.org/TR/webvtt1/
16:06:06 CN: Is this PF or TF issue?
16:06:09 agenda+ webVTT
16:06:22 JB: We had a liaison from the TF.
16:06:29 zakim, next item
16:06:29 agendum 2. "longdesc news?" taken up [from chaals]
16:07:03 CN: Longdesc proposed Recc is closed.
16:07:39 JB: Update is that the review period closed on Friday. The Director will be reviewing the results.
16:07:46 zakim, next item
16:07:46 agendum 3. "alt note update: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/296" taken up [from chaals]
16:08:06 CN: Liam has an action to put suggestions into the mailing list.
16:08:15 SM: Nothing to report.
16:08:20 action-296 due in 1 week
16:08:20 Set action-296 Present substantive alt note bugs due date to 2015-01-29.
16:08:24 q+
16:08:45 PC: Are we giving this item satisfactory attention? It hasn't progressed since December.
16:08:49 CN: No, we're not.
16:08:57 s/CN/SM/
16:09:02 PC: Does the TF want to look at something else then?
16:09:08 q+
16:09:22 ack pa
16:09:25 ack ju
16:09:40 CN: We don't want it languishing.
16:09:52 q+
16:10:08 JB: People who wanted to work on it have been unavailable recently.
16:10:20 PC: Can someone point me to the current editor's draft?
16:10:29 rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:10:48 PC: So we're still trying to map changes into bugs?
16:10:51 SM: Correct.
16:11:12 SM: If you sense frustration, that's good.
16:11:16 q?
16:11:49 JB: We have resource shortage right now within W3C team.
16:12:27 I guess the unchanged Editor's draft is at http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
16:12:34 SM: I would just go do this, but was told not to... I can go ahead if it's ok to do so?
16:12:42 JB: I'll follow up on that.
16:13:14 ack me
16:13:50 q+
16:13:59 q+
16:14:04 ack ju
16:14:17 CN: We want this to move forward. Need to identify and remove blockers.
16:14:52 Alt technique bugs: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&component=LC1%20alt%20techniques%20%28editor%3A%20Steven%20Faulkner%29&list_id=50965&product=HTML%20WG&query_format=advanced
16:15:05 ack jan
16:15:15 q+ paulc
16:15:24 q+
16:15:26 ack ju
16:15:33 richardschwerdtfeger has joined #html-a11y
16:15:51 ack pau
16:15:51 JS: It's difficult to do the job we understand needs to happen, with the status of longdesc still unresolved. Don't think we can assume it'll be TR anytime.
16:15:52 +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:16:01 PC: Can someone point me to the bug Shane created?
16:16:12 Liam's text: I posted one new bug on alt this week (needing abstract, intro, refs etc as a standalone dog, and drafted possible abstract and intro
16:16:14 s/shane/Liam/
16:16:16 s/Shane created/Liam created/
16:16:37 PC: I don't understand which bugs we're trying to process? Happy to take it offline though.
16:16:44 CN: Suggest taking it offline with Liam.
16:16:54 zakim, next item
16:16:54 agendum 4. "panel controls - http://bkardell.github.io/common-panel/" taken up [from chaals]
16:18:08 CN: This has come from a series of different discussions. Amongst them at TPAC between myself Brian Kardell and Léonie.
16:18:39 CN: Tabs are a common design pattern. No native support at present.
16:18:50 CN: There is a draft specification.
16:19:47 scribe: chaals
16:20:11 LJW: The idea is that panels are an old concept that has moved onto the Web.
16:20:45 … draft proposal looks at panel element, with a title and content. In the proposal it can include a label and icon, and could be removable.
16:21:02 q+ to request we write use cases, to get clear requirements
16:21:36 … the proposal introduces the idea of a panel set, matching tabpanels and accordions from aria, as well as card decks. It is an early draft and needs work.
16:21:44 q+
16:21:49 q- later
16:21:51 ack pl
16:22:22 PLH: We have interesting markup for application UI, and we are not the only ones. That proposal is very interesting from my point of view.
16:23:07 CN: It's important we write down the requirements, especially accessibility requirements, so we can make sure the proposed spec meets them.
16:23:56 zakim, next ite
16:23:56 I don't understand 'next ite', LJWatson
16:23:57 m
16:24:01 zakim, next item
16:24:01 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LJWatson
16:24:06 q=
16:24:09 queue=
16:24:13 zakim, next item
16:24:13 agendum 5. "transcripts (if we have time) - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Full_Transcript" taken up [from chaals]
16:24:32 s/m//
16:24:48 JF: Right now there is no mechanism for programmatically linking a transcript to a video.
16:24:58 q+
16:25:16 JF: One option is proximity, but I think we need a tighter binding than that.
16:25:31 JF: There are other options but they've languished. We need to pick up on this again.
16:25:53 JF: Suggest the media sub-team create an extension spec.
16:26:11 s/proximity/a text link somewhere/
16:26:40 ack me
16:27:54 CN: In search engine terms we don't like to rely on a link nearby. It becomes guesswork, which reduces our ability to associate useful metadata with a media object.
16:27:59 Q+
16:28:22 CN: So a track is time based, synched to the video. Seems there is no requirement to time sync a transcript?
16:28:59 JF: You've identified some of the problems. Needs to be a tigher binding. A child element of the parent, or an idref based association.
16:29:13 s/medie object/media object even more than the apparently unaviodable linkrot for metadata/
16:29:31 q+
16:29:45 JF: Browsers were wary of using the kind attribute.
16:29:55 s/Browsers/Browser vendors/
16:30:18 JF: We need a solution the browser vendors buy into.
16:30:37 ack ja
16:30:56 s|s/medie object/media object even more than the apparently unaviodable linkrot for metadata/||
16:31:18 Q+
16:31:40 s/with a media object/with a media object even beyond than the apparently unavoidable effects of linkrot on searchable but invisible metadata/
16:31:41 JS: On memory... we had three proposals 1. No programmatic link. 2. Had a programmatic link but nothing else. 3. Had linkage plus time sync ability.
16:31:56 +Liam
16:32:01 q+
16:32:03 -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:32:15 JS: Do we have any information on resolution of timestamping? Conceivable the minimum would be start/end.
16:32:19 ack jf
16:32:25 Q+
16:32:26 rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:32:35 https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:JFoliot/Issue194_Recap#Change_Proposals
16:32:38 ack jf
16:32:50 q+
16:33:01 JF: 1. Transcript element. 2. Transcript attribute. 3. New value for @kind - those were the three options.
16:33:29 JF: There are examples of transcripts with and without timing. Don't think it's a key characteristic, but it does exist.
16:33:56 ack ju
16:34:31 Q+
16:34:44 JB: Is the suggestion there should be an extension by the media sub-group? My initial reaction would be to discourage development in a sub-team, and bring it to the TF.
16:34:45 q- later
16:35:08 ack jf
16:35:22 JS: Would want to take the temperature of the HTML WG.
16:36:37 ack me
16:37:00 JF: Someone has to do the work. The transcript element seems like a good option. We should try to put some definition behind that proposed solution.
16:37:42 CN: If you have content that has no timing, you don't want to put it into a system that looks for timing.
16:38:15 CN: If we think this is work for the TF, and it seems like it is, we should ask someone to work on it.
16:38:26 q+
16:38:46 CN: There's a risk this could suffer the same type of problem as longdesc - link rot etc.
16:38:49 -Plh
16:38:57 ack ju
16:39:05 Q+ to say that this would be the same problem with any transcripts linked via @kind
16:39:16 JB: We need clear use cases and requirements.
16:39:24 rrsagent, make minutes
16:39:24 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:39:55 ack jf
16:39:55 JF, you wanted to say that this would be the same problem with any transcripts linked via @kind
16:40:38 JF: The argument of link rot etc. You'd have the same problem with the transcript attrib or @kind attrib.
16:41:27 q+
16:41:43 JF: One thing we do have is multiple ways to do it, so we need to identify that this blob of content serves a specific purpose.
16:42:12 ack me
16:42:21 q+ to suggest that ability to add to the mpeg4 container actually argues for less link rot
16:42:24 CN: WOuld be interested in doing some work on the use cases if someone is willing to work on it?
16:42:27 q+
16:42:31 JF: Sign me up.
16:42:43 ack ju
16:42:55 ack jan
16:42:55 janina, you wanted to suggest that ability to add to the mpeg4 container actually argues for less link rot
16:43:19 ACTION: johnf to produce a draft of use cases for transcripts
16:43:19 Error finding 'johnf'. You can review and register nicknames at .
16:43:22 ACTION: JF to draft use cases for transcripts
16:43:22 Created ACTION-300 - Draft use cases for transcripts [on John Foliot - due 2015-01-29].
16:43:39 action-300 due in 2 weeks
16:43:39 Set action-300 Draft use cases for transcripts due date to 2015-02-05.
16:43:49 q+
16:44:02 action-300 due 2015-02-05
16:44:02 Set action-300 Draft use cases for transcripts due date to 2015-02-05.
16:44:03 ack me
16:44:04 JS: The fact we can take different track types as separate resources or bundle them, may be a reason to choose that approach over other options because it could avoid link rot - and keep the pieces associated.
16:44:45 CN: Re-use should be a requirement, where it isn't bundled.
16:45:10 s/should be a requirement/looks like a requirement from use cases we already have/
16:45:24 JF Notes that Sylvia already listed a number of use cases at https://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/Issue194_SP#The_use_cases
16:45:24 zakim, next item
16:45:24 agendum 6. "webVTT" taken up [from chaals]
16:46:21 action: chaals to contribute use cases to JohnF
16:46:21 Created ACTION-301 - Contribute use cases to johnf [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-01-29].
16:47:30 agenda?
16:47:42 agenda+ alt note update?
16:47:47 JB: Mark Sadeck was monitoring work in this area. Liam is covering some of Mark's work, but we haven't been as active as we'd have liked. I believe the WG is using the last accessibility information we sent them.
16:47:58 s/Sadeck/Sadecki/
16:48:04 Q+
16:48:32 ack jf
16:48:37 JB: If David Singer is concerned Web VTT has not had enough review, I'd encourage the media sub-group to review.
16:49:09 q+
16:49:15 JF: I'm watching the conversation about Web VTT. Ongoing discussion around styling. Agree we need to watch more closely. WWould like another accessibility person to be watching as well as me.
16:49:42 JB: Intent was to help, not just monitor.
16:49:53 rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
16:50:11 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:50:11 On the phone I see JF, chaals, janina, Léonie, paulc, Judy, Adrian_Roselli, Joanmarie_Diggs, Sam, ShaneM, Liam
16:50:19 q+ to suggest it isn't obviously in TF scope and sounds like it should be in PF
16:50:26 ack ju
16:50:39 JB:Suggest we put this on the agenda for next week.
16:50:45 I agree with Judy that we should have at least another a11y SME involved here
16:50:47 q+ Does anyone know whether transformation between TTML and WebVTT has been explored?
16:51:19 CN: Scope of the TF is things published by HTML WG. Web VTT is not, so suggest this is better suited to PF.
16:51:35 +Plh
16:51:39 JB: We structured a liaison between them and the media sub-group.
16:52:27 CN: Ocurrs to me we're exceeding our scope, suggest we take this offline though.
16:52:33 Q+ to ask if the current WebVTT work intends to become an extension spec, which then asks whether it is in scope for this WG
16:52:38 ack me
16:52:38 chaals, you wanted to suggest it isn't obviously in TF scope and sounds like it should be in PF
16:52:56 JS: Is anyone aware whether the transformation between TTML and Web VTT has happened?
16:53:07 ack jf
16:53:07 JF, you wanted to ask if the current WebVTT work intends to become an extension spec, which then asks whether it is in scope for this WG
16:53:07 http://www.w3.org/2014/03/timed-text-charter.html
16:53:08 PLH: It's within their charter.
16:53:55 q+
16:53:58 JF: Agree work on Web VTT is happening inside W3C but outside of HTML. If intent is to make it an extension spec and roll it into HTML5, at what point does it become something we should look at?
16:54:06