14:59:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ldp
14:59:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/19-ldp-irc
14:59:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:59:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ldp
14:59:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
14:59:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
14:59:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:59:27 <trackbot> Date: 19 January 2015
15:00:00 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
15:00:03 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
15:00:10 <Zakim> +Arnaud
15:00:16 <Zakim> +azaroth
15:00:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:00:24 <cburleso> Zakim, IPcaller is me.
15:00:24 <Zakim> +cburleso; got it
15:00:26 <Zakim> +??P5
15:00:31 <deiu> Zakim, ??P5 is me
15:00:31 <Zakim> +deiu; got it
15:00:48 <cburleso> Zakim, MiguelAraCo is with me.
15:00:49 <Zakim> +MiguelAraCo; got it
15:01:47 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #ldp
15:02:23 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
15:02:46 <Zakim> + +33.6.47.14.aaaa
15:03:04 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #ldp
15:03:10 <bblfish> zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:11 <Zakim> +bblfish; got it
15:04:11 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?
15:04:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, azaroth, cburleso, deiu (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, bblfish
15:04:14 <Zakim> cburleso has cburleso, MiguelAraCo
15:04:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see azaroth, Ashok, bblfish, Zakim, RRSAgent, MiguelAraCo, cburleso, nmihindu, SteveS, bblfish_, deiu, Arnaud, tommorris, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot
15:04:49 <azaroth> zakim, who is on holiday?
15:04:50 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, azaroth.
15:04:58 <Arnaud> regrets: steves, pchampin, tallted
15:05:05 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2015.01.19
15:05:23 <cburleso> scribe: cburleso
15:05:45 <cburleso> TOPIC: Minutes Last Meeting (Jan 2)
15:05:54 <bblfish> oops have I missed that many calls?
15:06:23 <bblfish> ah ok, was in Berlin
15:06:24 <Arnaud> s/Jan 2/Jan 12/
15:06:42 <Zakim> +Roger
15:06:45 <roger> roger has joined #ldp
15:07:16 <cburleso> No objections on meeting minutes: approved.
15:07:24 <cburleso> TOPIC: Actions and Issues
15:07:35 <cburleso> Arnaud: No new news on actions and issues.
15:07:51 <cburleso> TOPIC: Working Group Extended
15:08:40 <cburleso> TOPIC: LLDP Spec
15:09:00 <cburleso> s/LLDP /LDP
15:09:31 <cburleso> Arnaud: We can pretty much consider the LDP Spec a recommendation and I think the announcement will come out next week.
15:09:48 <cburleso> roger: if we put in our vote late, will it still be accepted?
15:10:05 <cburleso> Arnaud: I don't think so.
15:10:26 <cburleso> roger: the form is still there now at the moment, but it doesn't seem to have any buttons to suibmit anymore
15:10:33 <cburleso> Arnaud: That's what I expected.
15:11:54 <cburleso> … it has to be approved also by the W3C management. The director takes into account the input to the review. It's usually delegated to the W3C management and I would expect this to be on the agenda of the next call. They make a decision, then it goes to the communication team who has to announce it.
15:12:02 <bblfish> EricP ?
15:12:10 <bblfish> ericP ?
15:12:11 <Zakim> +??P10
15:12:22 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P10 is me
15:12:23 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
15:12:38 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me
15:12:38 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted
15:13:52 <cburleso> … when they announce it, it will go on the blog, they will use twitter to announce it. Roger, you can add to it in some way then. You can also respond to the email that I will share it with. You can also post to whatever public list you want to add your support. I don't expect the W3C to put a press release together.
15:14:21 <cburleso> … Arnaud: I have a few questions on the exact timing that I don't have the answer for, but without eric and sandro, I don't know.
15:14:28 <cburleso> TOPIC: Paging
15:14:44 <cburleso> Arnaud… is now candidate recommendation
15:14:54 <cburleso> … is anyone actually implementing paging right now?
15:14:54 <bblfish> q+
15:15:14 <Zakim> +EricP
15:15:33 <cburleso> azaroth: We will begin very soon
15:15:54 <cburleso> NPO. I just didn't recognize the voice.
15:16:02 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
15:16:06 <cburleso> s/NPO / NP
15:17:08 <cburleso> bblfish: I've been working on paging. I think you have paging in sparql, so that's something to consider.
15:17:32 <cburleso> Arnaud: Are you going to implement paging as specified?
15:18:46 <cburleso> bblfish: There is good reason to have it, but I just have limited resources. From a client perspective you need to be in the graph around a certain node. So, I think, from a display side I can see the need.
15:18:50 <ericP> SPARQL does indeed say do whatever you want. We had 0 implementation experience to tall us what MUST be in the returned graph.
15:19:14 <cburleso> Arnaud: We will need 2 implementations to get out of CR into Proposed Recommendation.
15:19:30 <Ashok> I'm happy to talk about QUERY -- Henry and I have a proposal
15:19:41 <cburleso> … We also need to further develop the Test Suite. That is a good way to contribute to the working group.
15:20:37 <cburleso> … Worst case scenario is that if we have not implemented by the end of our time (near July); we will have to publish it as a working group note; which is a final document, but is not "the standard" per se.
15:21:23 <cburleso> … Of course, if we recharter, then we could, but if by then another team is not implementing, I fear by then it will have shown low interest.
15:21:33 <cburleso> TOPIC: LDP Spec (again)
15:22:17 <cburleso> Arnaud: What's next, Eric?
15:22:31 <cburleso> ericP: Someone needs to get the director's attention to look over the results.
15:22:46 <cburleso> Arnaud: That's why I wanted to have you or Sandro involved in the discussion.
15:23:30 <cburleso> … I assume the editors are going to be asked to produce the final document that says it's a recommendation. Steve can do that, but only if you coordinate with him.
15:23:45 <cburleso> ericP: OK, I'm pinging about it.
15:23:53 <cburleso> TOPIC: LD Patch Format
15:24:30 <cburleso> Arnaud: We are now waiting on the team to approve; this is Ralph, I believe now, Eric… to go over the transition request of LD PAtch going to CR.
15:24:47 <cburleso> ericP: OK, I will work on that. Can you create formal actions on that?
15:24:58 <cburleso> Arnaud: Go ahead, please create them yourself.
15:25:24 <cburleso> ericP: Schedule LDP transition to Req and LD Patch to CR; those are the actions.
15:25:25 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to schedule LDP transition from PR to REC
15:25:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-152 - Schedule ldp transition from pr to rec [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2015-01-26].
15:25:33 <cburleso> TOPIC: Workshop
15:25:35 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to schedule LDP Patch transition from LC to CR
15:25:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-153 - Schedule ldp patch transition from lc to cr [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2015-01-26].
15:25:49 <cburleso> Arnaud: We discussed having a workshop in the Spring.
15:26:30 <cburleso> … We need to figure out where, when, find a venue, we need a chair. W3C Workshops have a standard operating model.
15:26:55 <cburleso> … We need to setup a program committee, make an announcement, and inviute people to submit position papers.
15:27:08 <bblfish> q+
15:27:19 <cburleso> … We previously discussed San Fran Bay area with hope of attracting attendees from Silicon Valley.
15:28:19 <bblfish> q-
15:28:51 <cburleso> … We talked to another working group. There is a need for a protocol for annotations. I told them we actually are looking for feedback. And I think there is also interest from the Social Working Group.
15:29:29 <azaroth> April 22nd, Fort Mason Ctr, in San Francisco
15:29:33 <cburleso> … In the case of Annotation Working Group, I mentioned the workshop and they actually mentioned that they are going to have a F2F in April in San Fran. They suggested co-locating the Workshop with their event.
15:29:50 <azaroth> q+ to provide details
15:29:58 <Arnaud> ack azaroth
15:29:58 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to provide details
15:31:46 <cburleso> azaroth: Their F2F is 22 April, followed by a 2 day conferency/tech-a-thon sort of thing. I talked to the organizer last week. He said for W3C Workshop, there is a nice room in the conf center for something on Tuesday the 25th that would be nice. It could be a great opportunity to build closer ties to the two group and get some good feedback.
15:32:36 <bblfish> It would be good to have a workshop in Europe too
15:32:41 <cburleso> Arnaud: It is interesting because the location and time-frame BOTH are inline with what we've been discussing. And an interested group.
15:32:52 <bblfish> I think it is a good idea
15:32:52 <cburleso> +1 to this (Cody)
15:33:12 <azaroth> (+1 from me, if that wasn't clear already)
15:33:34 <cburleso> Ashok: We'd have to do some outreach.
15:33:56 <bblfish> There is the AC meeting in Paris in May too btw
15:34:04 <bblfish> q+
15:34:24 <cburleso> Arnaud: I agree. But I don't want to go through all the effort unless there is enough initial interest. Because there are still other possibilities.
15:34:28 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
15:35:49 <cburleso> bblfish: My feeling is that the Social Web Working Group could be interested. I wonder how many on the list may be interested. There is also the European side of things; a lot of things going on in Europe. I definitely think working with that group is a key and one of the most important things to happen to LDP if it happens.
15:36:14 <bblfish> who is interested in working with Social Web and LDP here?
15:36:16 <bblfish> +1
15:36:19 <cburleso> Arnaud: I agree. I don't know, Eric - is there any other format than W3C Workshop that we can use?
15:36:47 <bblfish> obviously Arnaud being chair is :-)
15:36:52 <cburleso> … For W3C Workshop there is a description, committee process, producing a report; it's fairly intensive work.
15:37:02 <Ashok> q+
15:37:05 <bblfish> how many people are on the call?
15:37:10 <Arnaud> ack Ashok
15:37:17 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:37:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Arnaud, azaroth, cburleso, deiu (muted), Ashok_Malhotra, bblfish, Roger, nmihindu (muted), EricP
15:37:19 <Zakim> cburleso has cburleso, MiguelAraCo
15:37:23 <azaroth> q+
15:37:47 <Arnaud> ack azaroth
15:37:56 <cburleso> Ashok: Isn't LDP somewhat heavyweight for annotations? I thought annotations was supposed to be sort of easy and quick. To buy into all of our framework sounds heavy-weight.
15:38:05 <ericP> i suspect we will always be responsible for a report, but we needn't be formal about papers and acceptance.
15:39:01 <cburleso> azaroth: You would be welcome to join the Annotation Working Group, by the way. New deliverables: a client-0side browser API and protocol (basic CRUD plus notification plus search).
15:39:40 <cburleso> … Paging will be extremely important for annotations. There will be likely dozens of annotations on any given page or resource. Patch will be equally important.
15:40:11 <cburleso> … Graph is also important given that there will be several different resources required to process annotations.
15:40:44 <bblfish> Also annotations sounds like it would be very useful for Social Web tools, so that there are just more and more reasons to have LDP. Once you need it for one use case, then it is easy for all the other use cases
15:40:45 <cburleso> … We think the semantics added by LDP are very valuable. If we didn't use them, we may be inventing some similar process down the line.
15:41:08 <cburleso> … So, it's not certain, but the group is excited about the prospects opf LDP.
15:41:14 <bblfish> cool Rob
15:41:54 <cburleso> Arnaud: If you look at LDP and take just base resources and Basic Container, it's actually pretty simple. Anybody who starts doing REST API with LDP will end up with something very similar anyway.
15:42:35 <cburleso> … Eric, back to you regarding the workshop gathering. Other formats of meeting?
15:43:01 <bblfish> the w3c i running out of money to pay staff
15:43:48 <bblfish> :-)
15:44:01 <cburleso> ericP: If we're using the W3C name, we probably have to report to the AC, but I think we can pretty much do whatever we want. Unless a member cares; they then need the opp to stand up and have their voice heard.
15:44:29 <Ashok> q+
15:45:05 <Arnaud> ack Ashok
15:45:06 <cburleso> Arnaud: So, we'd have to figure out what we'd want to do exactly. But there is a trade-off. With the formality, I think we might get higher interest and attendance. Informally, I don't know.
15:45:31 <cburleso> Ashok: I think we should do it as a recognized event with the associated PR. I've done a bunch of these and can help.
15:46:15 <cburleso> Arnaud: But I haven't heard too many people say "Yes" to come to that meeting. For now, I think it is still a bit premature to settle on that.
15:47:12 <bblfish> but this would be a great time to experiment with the Social Web folks
15:47:25 <cburleso> … Everyone, please think about it and submit your interest. Maybe it is just too early (still implementing and such). Decide and get back to us.
15:47:45 <cburleso> … The proposal is San Fran in April for starters.
15:47:57 <cburleso> Ashok: I would like to have some of the Oracle developers attend.
15:48:13 <cburleso> Arnaud: That sounds good. That's the kind of thing we'd be hoping to get.
15:48:31 <cburleso> TOPIC: Other Business (not on agenda)
15:48:44 <cburleso> Arnaud: Henry, maybe we can discuss the query verb.
15:48:55 <cburleso> … Can you ecplain,.
15:49:08 <cburleso> s/ecplain /explain
15:49:18 <Ashok> q+
15:49:52 <cburleso> bblfish: QUERY verb was in very early specs of W3C related to WebDAV. So these things are out there already.
15:50:38 <bblfish> https://github.com/read-write-web/rww-play
15:50:56 <cburleso> … We already have SPARQL. But you could have other, simpler languages. It seems to fit very nicely together and I think it would give us a little extra power. I already implemented something like this.
15:51:50 <Arnaud> ack Ashok
15:51:52 <cburleso> Arnaud: So this is a proposal to specify the QUERY HTTP verb. Today, you would use POST for such a thing (the catch-all for HTTP). In this case, it is advantageous because it has a clear indication of a READ-ONLY quality.
15:52:01 <cburleso> … may be benefits with caching, etc.
15:52:20 <cburleso> Ashok: I have a point of view to send out about this.
15:52:29 <cburleso> Arnaud: OK, please submit to the list.
15:52:55 <Ashok> s/point of view/write up/
15:53:17 <cburleso> … I find the proposal to be sane and logical. My only concern is that the HTTP Working Group may not be very open to any additions. We had trouble with a new response code (209). So, I wonder if they are even open to considering something like this.
15:53:30 <cburleso> Ashok: I agree it will be hard, but I think it may be worth the try.
15:53:57 <cburleso> Arnaud: I was surprised because even Tim BL was in support of 209, but there was still push-back.
15:54:36 <Ashok> yes, I can talk to Mark if there is interest
15:55:33 <cburleso> bblfish: Well, it's already got background (such as in WebDAV history); there are other alliances where, when done correctly, it can be useful to other groups/specs. So, with the 302, I think there was some good reason. (Scribe notes: 209 became 302?).
15:55:53 <cburleso> Arnaud: Wel, it would be good to test the waters.
15:56:02 <cburleso> s/Wel /Well
15:56:03 <bblfish> the alliances could be with folks wanting to do XQuery, or XPath, or something, ...
15:56:14 <cburleso> Ashok: I can talk to Mark.
15:56:29 <bblfish> just let me know if you do talk to people, perhaps I can get others at Apache interested
15:56:56 <Ashok> Henry, that's a good idea!
15:57:07 <cburleso> Arnaud: Meeting adjourned. Please think about the workshop in April; we'd need to gather this decision very quickly to have any success!
15:57:18 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
15:57:19 <bblfish> thanks all
15:57:21 <Zakim> -azaroth
15:57:23 <Zakim> -cburleso
15:57:24 <Zakim> -Roger
15:57:25 <azaroth> Thanks, bye all :)
15:57:27 <Zakim> -deiu
15:57:28 <Zakim> -Arnaud
15:57:29 <Zakim> -bblfish
15:57:30 <Zakim> -nmihindu
15:57:44 <Zakim> -EricP
15:57:45 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
15:57:45 <Zakim> Attendees were Arnaud, azaroth, cburleso, deiu, MiguelAraCo, Ashok_Malhotra, +33.6.47.14.aaaa, bblfish, Roger, nmihindu, EricP
16:16:06 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
17:17:51 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
17:33:03 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
17:43:02 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
17:58:45 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
18:28:19 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ldp
18:31:43 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
18:44:30 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
19:02:01 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #ldp
20:09:05 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp
20:49:12 <deiu> deiu has joined #ldp
21:08:45 <Arnaud> Arnaud has joined #ldp
21:19:42 <SteveS> SteveS has joined #ldp