15:58:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:58:46 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-dpub-irc
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16:00:17 <mgylling> trackbot, start telecon
16:00:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:00:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
16:00:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM already started
16:00:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
16:00:22 <trackbot> Date: 12 January 2015
16:00:29 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:00:39 <Zakim> +azaroth
16:00:42 <Zakim> -??P12
16:00:49 <mgylling> regrets: Charles LaPierre, Bill Kasdorf, Alan Stearns, Ivan Herman, Peter Krautzberger, Phil Madans, Luc Audrain, Tim Cole, Laura Fowler, Susanne Keohane, Michael Miller
16:00:54 <Zakim> +Vlad
16:00:56 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:00:56 <Zakim> +??P12
16:01:06 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
16:01:15 <Zakim> +??P9
16:01:21 <HeatherF> I'm usually IP_Caller (or some such thing) to start - not sure how to fix it since I came on before the trackbot?
16:01:24 <Zakim> +Markus
16:01:31 <shinyu> Zakim, ??P9 is me
16:01:31 <Zakim> +shinyu; got it
16:01:35 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
16:01:36 <kwkbtr> Zakim, +??P12 is me
16:01:37 <Zakim> sorry, kwkbtr, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12'
16:01:41 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ugent is me
16:01:41 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
16:01:46 <Zakim> -??P12
16:01:47 <azaroth> Morning :)
16:01:52 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:01:56 <Zakim> +??P12
16:02:04 <kwkbtr> Zakim, +?PP12 is me
16:02:04 <Zakim> sorry, kwkbtr, I do not recognize a party named '+?PP12'
16:02:13 <kwkbtr> Zakim, ?PP12 is me
16:02:13 <Zakim> sorry, kwkbtr, I do not recognize a party named '?PP12'
16:02:21 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
16:02:22 <kwkbtr> Zakim, PP12 is me
16:02:22 <Zakim> sorry, kwkbtr, I do not recognize a party named 'PP12'
16:02:33 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
16:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Safari], [Safari.a], Tzviya, [IPcaller], dauwhe, azaroth, Vlad, shinyu, Markus, bjdmeest, ??P12, Karen_Myers
16:02:33 <kwkbtr> Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:02:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see bjdmeest, Vlad, tmichel, HeatherF, RRSAgent, Zakim, aylaStein, shinyu, liza, tzviya, azaroth, kwkbtr, mgylling, dauwhe_, rego, Karen, liam, dkaplan3, astearns, iank__,
16:02:36 <Zakim> ... mihnea_____, plinss, trackbot
16:02:36 <Zakim> +kwkbtr; got it
16:02:39 <Zakim> +??P26
16:02:41 <dkaplan3> Zakim, Safari is me
16:02:41 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it
16:02:51 <tmichel> zakim, ??P26 is me
16:02:51 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
16:03:05 <liza> Zakim, Safari.a is me
16:03:06 <Zakim> +liza; got it
16:03:08 <tzviya> scribenick: tzviya
16:03:23 <Zakim> + +1.217.300.aaaa
16:04:18 <aylaStein> That's Ayla Stein
16:04:20 <kwkbtr> Thank you!
16:04:22 <tzviya> kwbtr: joining from Vivliostyle for first time
16:04:25 <mgylling> zakim, aaaa is Ayla
16:04:25 <Zakim> +Ayla; got it
16:04:29 <mgylling> * Approval of last week's minutes [1]
16:04:30 <mgylling> * Cancel call next week? (MLK day in US)
16:04:31 <mgylling> * Move to public wiki: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/W3C_specs_for_DPUB
16:04:32 <mgylling> * Houdini project: digital publishing requirements
16:04:35 <kwkbtr> This is Toru Kawakubo from Vivliostyle
16:04:40 <tzviya> Welcome Vivliostyle!
16:05:18 <tzviya> last week's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/22-dpub-minutes.html
16:05:20 <Zakim> +madi
16:05:21 <tzviya> approved
16:05:31 <aylaStein> Yes
16:05:36 <liza> Safari's off
16:05:40 <HeatherF> No preference on my part.
16:05:48 <azaroth> sadly, Stanford is open
16:05:49 <Karen> MIT is closed
16:05:54 <aylaStein> UIUC is closed
16:05:58 <Vlad> Monotype is closed
16:06:03 <tzviya> MLK day in USA: cancel meeting
16:06:14 <madi> madi has joined #dpub
16:06:57 <tzviya> topic: W3C publications relevant to publishing
16:07:31 <tzviya> Markus: Thierry and Ivan recommend moving https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/W3C_specs_for_DPUB to public wiki
16:08:21 <tzviya> tmichel: currently, the document is on DPUB IG wiki, question is whether to move this to public wiki that is editable by anyone with an account
16:08:44 <tzviya> ...or should we keep it restricted to W3C/DPUB IG members?
16:09:20 <tzviya> ...and, is IG satisfied with content?
16:09:52 <tzviya> markus: if one of us would like to update, we can edit in the wiki
16:10:08 <tzviya> tmichel: we will keep an eye on it if it is a public space
16:10:49 <tmichel> review the document until the next call
16:10:51 <tmichel> +1
16:11:05 <aylaStein> +1
16:11:07 <bjdmeest> +1
16:11:11 <liza> +1
16:11:31 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
16:11:49 <tmichel> next call in two weeks
16:11:58 <tzviya> markus: homework for IG to review/edit the document until next call, at which point we will make public
16:12:01 <liza> I'll volunteer to explicitly review it
16:12:20 <tmichel> People should also voice if they are not satisfied with moving the document to a public wiki
16:12:31 <tzviya> topic: project Houdini
16:12:40 <liza> (I'd like to write a blog post with some narrative around it when it's public anyway, so this will be good homework)
16:13:13 <tzviya> dauwhe: Project Houdini is very technical
16:13:27 <tzviya> ...initial meeting is in Australia 7-8 Feb
16:13:38 <tzviya> ...joint meeting between CSS WG and TAG
16:14:26 <tzviya> ...objective of task force is to explain the magic of layout on the web
16:15:08 <tzviya> ...people are starting to look for ways of extending CSS in the same way that HTML can be extended via ShadowDOM, JS, etc
16:15:19 <tzviya> ...to date this has been impossible
16:15:50 <mgylling> +regrets Frederick Hirsch
16:16:01 <tzviya> ...one aspect of this is the BoxTree API
16:16:33 <tzviya> ...people have been creating numerous nested boxes and positioning them
16:16:44 <tzviya> ...Boxtree provides a model for that
16:16:45 <mgylling> +regrets David Stroup
16:17:09 <tzviya> ,,,Another part is a method of manipulating the CSS Object Model (CSSOM)
16:17:51 <tzviya> ...there is interest in rewriting the CSSOM from scratch as the existing model is difficult
16:18:20 <tzviya> ...one thought for this meeting is to get an idea of what people want from this effort
16:18:37 <tzviya> ...one example that came up last week is font metrics
16:19:00 <pkra> darn I want to dial in now...
16:19:15 <tzviya> q+
16:19:29 <Zakim> +Liam
16:19:32 <dauwhe_> wiki https://wiki.css-houdini.org/main
16:19:39 <dauwhe_> mailing list: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-houdini/
16:20:03 <tzviya> markus: when is the meeting?
16:20:21 <mgylling> q?
16:20:25 <tzviya> dauwhe: 7 - 8 Feb, adjacent but separate from CSS WG
16:20:28 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:20:41 <Karen> Tzviya: I am wondering from DigPub perspective, is there anything you need from us?
16:20:49 <Karen> …Our most pressing issue is Fragmentation issues
16:20:56 <Karen> …Brady wrote something up
16:21:04 <Karen> …Ivan is concerned things not get lost in the shuffle
16:21:11 <Karen> …What is it that we should be doing?
16:21:14 <Karen> Dave: I am not sure on that
16:21:19 <Karen> …I will be there, Peter there
16:21:39 <Karen> …This use case is definitely going to get some attentoion
16:21:45 <Karen> …not sure yet what direction
16:21:55 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:22:14 <tzviya> Dauwhe: some of information is coming from Google
16:22:29 <tzviya> ...there will be some loud voices making sure that pagination is address
16:22:41 <tzviya> markus: help me understand scope of Houdini
16:23:01 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
16:23:02 <tzviya> ...accessing a refreshed CSS with JS is one thing, boxtree is another
16:23:28 <tzviya> ...would a fundamental issue such as pagination be scripted, not declarative?
16:23:30 <Karen_> Karen_ has joined #dpub
16:23:47 <tzviya> dauwhe: some of ideas are heavily influenced by extensible web manifesto
16:24:04 <tzviya> ...which advoactes for experimenting
16:24:29 <mgylling> Brady’s pagination requirements page: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements
16:24:32 <tzviya> ...and polyfilling. The polyfills can evolve into standars
16:24:59 <tzviya> extensible web manifesto https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/
16:26:00 <mgylling> q?
16:26:08 <dauwhe_> TabAtkins: We'll nail things down more explicitly in the first meeting, but the idea is that our current approach of delivering a new layout mode every 5 years or so isn't sustainable; they're too complex and the whole thing is too slow.  Beyond core "layout modes" (like Flexbox, etc) there's a lot of other stuff that generally falls under the rubric of "box-tree manipulation" (like Regions, and the constellation of functionality surrounding their
16:26:08 <dauwhe_>  core concept, like running headers, footnotes, etc.) which, again, takes a long time to go from "idea" to "usable on mass-market websites".
16:26:20 <dauwhe_> TabAtkins: While there's still value in finding the highest-impact stuff in this realm and standardizing it with CSS syntax, we feel that for CSS to continue to be viable in the future, we need to open up these sorts of APIs to developers more directly, allowing them to define their own layout managers/etc with lower-level box-creation/manipulation primitives.  This TF's goal is to figure out how to do this in a way that's compatible with the perf
16:26:20 <dauwhe_>  concerns of today's and tomorrow's browsers.
16:27:49 <tzviya> markus: we have dave, alan, peter linss, vivliostyle. is it correct to assume then that we do not need to worry about publishing being dropped on the floor? Do we need to rally?
16:28:07 <tzviya> dauwhe: for now, we are OK. We may need to rally in the future
16:29:05 <tzviya> markus: Brady's use cases (https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements) are applicable use cases
16:29:38 <tzviya> markus: at the very least, we need to get Brady and other contributors to flesh out the use cases
16:30:35 <tzviya> action markus talk to Brady about fleshing out the pagination use cases
16:30:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-44 - Talk to brady about fleshing out the pagination use cases [on Markus Gylling - due 2015-01-19].
16:31:46 <tzviya> markus: are there any other items that we should prepare to have ready for Houdini?
16:32:33 <tzviya> dauwhe: we might get a lot more capability to intercept and process CSS, which might offer reading systems processing power
16:32:40 <tzviya> ...for things like user style sheets
16:33:29 <tzviya> q+
16:34:12 <tzviya> markus: it might be a good idea to break the personalization use cases out of brady's use cases and present them separately
16:34:41 <mgylling> q?
16:34:46 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:35:22 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Accessibility_and_Personalization
16:35:48 <tzviya> tzviya: we have use cases related to personalization as regards to accessibility
16:36:22 <tzviya> ...we should try to consolidate the 2 sets of use cases
16:36:53 <tzviya> markus: other topics?
16:37:05 <tzviya> dauwhe: there might be smaller categories
16:37:12 <tzviya> ...math layout for example
16:37:50 <tzviya> ...how does one display chemML in a browser? There might be several things required for polyfills
16:39:06 <tzviya> ...If we started to have access to layout primitives, new things might be possible
16:39:34 <tzviya> Tzviya: Peter Krautzberger probably will have something to add in the area
16:40:08 <tzviya> ,,,issues in STEM often involve extending table rendering, fonts for chemistry, etc
16:40:22 <tzviya> markus: what is a good term?
16:41:11 <tzviya> markus: maybe the best place to start is with Peter K and STEM use cases
16:41:38 <tzviya> ...it does not sound STEM-specific
16:41:59 <tzviya> +1
16:43:57 <tzviya> tzviya: another area that can be difficult is infographics
16:44:07 <tzviya> markus: that might be solved with SVG
16:44:41 <tzviya> markus: we have a meanwhile plan to collect use cases
16:45:24 <tzviya> ...brady on pagination, consolidate personalization, and talk to Peter K about STEM
16:46:01 <tzviya> ...and Dave will be our conduit to CSS WG :)
16:46:29 <Karen_> q+
16:46:37 <mgylling> ack Karen
16:46:48 <tzviya> karen: is anyone going to Digital Book World?
16:47:06 <HeatherF> q+
16:47:15 <mgylling> ack HeatherF
16:47:25 <Zakim> -kwkbtr
16:48:06 <mgylling> +regrets Brady
16:48:31 <Zakim> +??P12
16:48:50 <kwkbtr> Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:48:50 <Zakim> +kwkbtr; got it
16:48:59 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
16:49:00 <Zakim> -Ayla
16:49:00 <Zakim> -liza
16:49:02 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:49:02 <Zakim> -Markus
16:49:03 <Zakim> -Liam
16:49:03 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:49:03 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:49:05 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:49:07 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
16:49:09 <mgylling> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-dpub-minutes.html mgylling
16:49:10 <Zakim> -kwkbtr
16:49:12 <Zakim> -tmichel
16:52:23 <Zakim> -azaroth
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16:55:02 <Zakim> -madi
17:01:35 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
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17:24:11 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
17:29:11 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, shinyu, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM
17:29:13 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
17:29:13 <Zakim> Attendees were Tzviya, Karen_Myers, [IPcaller], dauwhe, azaroth, Vlad, Markus, shinyu, bjdmeest, kwkbtr, dkaplan3, tmichel, liza, +1.217.300.aaaa, Ayla, madi, Liam
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