18:02:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
18:02:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-irc
18:02:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:02:07 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria-apg
18:02:08 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:02:08 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named '[IPcaller]'
18:02:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:02:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM already started
18:02:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:02:10 <trackbot> Date: 12 January 2015
18:02:18 <LJWatson> zakim, who is on the phone?
18:02:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.217.244.aaaa, [IPcaller], James_Nurthen, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa
18:02:25 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA APG Working Group
18:02:37 <Zakim> +Matt_King
18:02:41 <jemma> me jemma
18:02:46 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
18:02:46 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
18:02:55 <Zakim> + +1.512.459.aabb
18:03:06 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
18:03:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.217.244.aaaa, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, +1.512.459.aabb
18:03:07 <jemma> 1217244AAAA
18:03:29 <annabbott> annabbott has joined #aria-apg
18:03:58 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria-apg
18:04:00 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call
18:04:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', jamesn
18:04:02 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
18:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see jamesn, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, +1.512.459.aabb
18:04:11 <jamesn> zakim, jamesn is jemma
18:04:11 <Zakim> +jemma; got it
18:04:18 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
18:04:18 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
18:04:37 <jamesn> zakim, aabb is Ann_Abbott
18:04:37 <Zakim> +Ann_Abbott; got it
18:04:42 <mattking> mattking has joined #aria-apg
18:04:52 <jamesn> zakim, who is on the call?
18:04:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see jemma, LJWatson, James_Nurthen, Jon_Gunderson, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, Ann_Abbott
18:06:00 <jamesn> 1. Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu
18:06:00 <jamesn> Are there additional authoring limitations imposed by menu event requirements?
18:06:00 <jamesn> In particular, should persistent menus work or do they need to be discouraged?
18:06:00 <jamesn> UAIG section 5.8.4. Special Events for Menus
18:06:01 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_events_menus
18:06:31 <LJWatson> scribe LJWatson
18:07:47 <jamesn> http://www.w3.org/2012/webcrypto/wiki/Efficient_IRC
18:08:23 <LJWatson> zakim, this is 92473
18:08:23 <Zakim> LJWatson, this was already WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM
18:08:24 <Zakim> ok, LJWatson; that matches WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM
18:12:00 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
18:12:00 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
18:12:48 <jemma> JaEun Jemma Ku
18:13:00 <annabbott> Leonie: my email = aabbott@us.ibm.com
18:13:04 <jemma> Ku is my last name
18:13:06 <jamesn> agenda+ Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu
18:13:23 <jamesn> agenda+ 2. Menu button: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menubutton
18:13:33 <jamesn> agenda+ 3. Popup Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#popupmenu
18:13:37 <mattking> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?component=Practices&list_id=48588&order=short_desc%2Cpriority%2Cbug_severity&product=ARIA&query_based_on=&query_format=advanced&resolution=---
18:14:35 <LJWatson> zakim, agenda?
18:14:35 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
18:14:36 <Zakim> 1. Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu [from jamesn]
18:14:36 <Zakim> 2. 2. Menu button: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menubutton [from jamesn]
18:14:36 <Zakim> 3. 3. Popup Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#popupmenu [from jamesn]
18:15:06 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 1
18:15:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu" taken up [from jamesn]
18:15:21 <LJWatson> MK: A cople of the bug summaries need cleaning up.
18:15:40 <LJWatson> s/cople/couple/
18:17:35 <LJWatson> MK: 27526 and 27527.
18:20:09 <jamesn> agenda+ Future Meetings (1/19 is MLK day)
18:20:58 <LJWatson> MK: 27526 updated.
18:22:10 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
18:22:12 <LJWatson> MK: 27527 need to review the keyboard interaction?
18:23:14 <LJWatson> BG: The pattern assumes it will be a vertical menu, but that's not always the case.
18:23:47 <LJWatson> ... Need to be careful the pattern doesn't assume an orientation.
18:24:09 <Zakim> + +1.919.607.aacc
18:24:30 <jamesn> zakim, aacc is Birkir
18:24:30 <Zakim> +Birkir; got it
18:25:18 <Birkir> Yeap, sorry guys, traffic
18:25:34 <LJWatson> JN: Did we file an issue against the ARIA spec for menu orientation?
18:25:37 <LJWatson> BG: Yes.
18:26:23 <LJWatson> JN: Need to make sure keyboard interaction works for all orientations, or constrain the pattern to a vertical convention.
18:26:42 <LJWatson> MK: Think the first option. Would still want people to use this pattern for horizontal menus.
18:27:08 <LJWatson> JN: We could have two separate patterns and/or sub-patterns for the different orientation/keyboard interactions?
18:27:26 <LJWatson> MK: We could add to the table.
18:27:48 <LJWatson> AA: How does the user know which orientation is being used?
18:28:10 <LJWatson> JN: When support for aria-orientation is introduced, but for now through experience.
18:29:07 <Birkir> We leave the most efficient way to communicate orientation to the individual screen reader vendors.
18:30:10 <LJWatson> BG: The pattern mentions aria-orientation on separator, which is confusing.
18:30:22 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:30:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:30:44 <LJWatson> MK: It's required on the separator role, so has to be in the menu pattern.
18:31:05 <LJWatson> BG: It's still confusing.
18:33:25 <LJWatson> MK: COrrection aria-orientation isn't required for separator.
18:33:50 <LJWatson> s/COrrection/Correction/
18:34:14 <Birkir> e
18:34:14 <LJWatson> MK: Need a bug about separating horizontal and vertical orientation.
18:37:03 <Birkir> need to look into why aria-setsize and aria-posinset are not supported properties for elements with role menuitem
18:37:25 <LJWatson> BG: In the attribute list it doesn't mention aria-disabled for disabled menu items.
18:38:52 <LJWatson> MK: Do we need to separate menu and menubar?
18:39:05 <LJWatson> JN: Don't think so.
18:40:19 <LJWatson> MK: A menubar is just a horizontal menu, right?
18:41:15 <LJWatson> MK: Also what is the difference between a persistently visible menu and a menubar.
18:41:22 <LJWatson> BG: I think possibly event firing.
18:41:34 <LJWatson> AA: Menubars have buttons on them?
18:41:45 <LJWatson> JN: Toolbars have buttons, menubars have menuitems.
18:43:08 <LJWatson> MK: With Jaws once in menu mode, don't know it makes any difference?
18:43:45 <LJWatson> MK: Don't see there should be any difference in the way an AT treats them.
18:44:27 <LJWatson> BG: If you tab to a container with either menu or menubar there is a difference, but not if you tab to a menuitem within one of those constructs.
18:45:53 <LJWatson> BirkirG: Menu is persistent, menubar isn't.
18:46:17 <Birkir> Oh, I got it backwards then ;) not the first time.
18:47:56 <LJWatson> BG: The APG doesn't differentiate between the two.
18:48:20 <LJWatson> MK: Doesn't describe menubar, or how/when to choose between the two.
18:48:33 <LJWatson> MK: Actually not clear to me that we need the menubar role at all.
18:48:43 <LJWatson> BirkirG: Agree. It confuses things.
18:49:22 <LJWatson> MK: As a minimum we should explain when a menubar isn't a menu.
18:49:40 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
18:49:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
18:50:11 <LJWatson> BG: Should either explain the differences or separate into different patterns, either is fine.
18:50:36 <LJWatson> MK: Suggest we change the opening paragraph, and also add a definition of menubar.
18:51:37 <LJWatson> JG: There is a platform API difference between the menu and menubar roles.
18:52:40 <LJWatson> MK: Think a persistently visible menu should be supported.
18:53:59 <LJWatson> BG: Supported, but not best practice. If we promote persistent menus, there's a risk developers will apply the ARIA even when the menu interaction isn't client-side.
18:56:25 <LJWatson> BG: There are instances where it would be ok, but my worry is with generalising it.
18:57:11 <LJWatson> MK: So a menu with a sub-menu must be able to manage focus in such a way that you can return focus to the parent menu, and navigate to a different child menu.
18:58:12 <Birkir> LJ: wow, that level of transcription accuracy is crazy. *grin* Just had to point it out.
18:58:23 <LJWatson> MK: Don't think we should discourage persistent menus as best practice.
18:58:31 <LJWatson> MK: Think we need to think about this more.
18:58:42 <LJWatson> JN: Not sure the pattern encourages persistent menus?
18:59:02 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 4
18:59:02 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Future Meetings (1/19 is MLK day)" taken up [from jamesn]
18:59:31 <LJWatson> JN: Will there be a meeting next week?
18:59:41 <jongund> I will be on holiday next monday
19:00:01 <LJWatson> MK: Think enough of us can make it, so we'll go ahead and plan to meet.
19:00:16 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 4
19:00:16 <Zakim> agendum 4, Future Meetings (1/19 is MLK day), closed
19:00:17 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:00:17 <Zakim> 1. Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu [from jamesn]
19:00:26 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 2
19:00:26 <Zakim> agendum 2. "2. Menu button: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menubutton" taken up [from jamesn]
19:00:30 <Zakim> -Ann_Abbott
19:00:32 <Zakim> -Matt_King
19:00:52 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 2
19:00:52 <Zakim> agendum 2, 2. Menu button: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menubutton, closed
19:00:54 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:00:54 <Zakim> 1. Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu [from jamesn]
19:01:02 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 1
19:01:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu" taken up [from jamesn]
19:01:47 <LJWatson> zakim, close item 1
19:01:47 <Zakim> agendum 1, Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menu, closed
19:01:48 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:01:48 <Zakim> 3. 3. Popup Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#popupmenu [from jamesn]
19:01:54 <LJWatson> zakim, take up item 2
19:01:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "2. Menu button: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#menubutton" taken up [from jamesn]
19:02:46 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26377
19:04:02 <Zakim> -jemma
19:04:25 <LJWatson> JN: Not sure why the menu is part of the menu button pattern. Can we remove it?
19:04:40 <LJWatson> JN: Seems to duplicate menu behaviour description.
19:05:29 <LJWatson> JN: Suggest we change keyboard interaction information to refer back to the menu design pattern.
19:05:48 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:05:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
19:06:29 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27811
19:07:14 <LJWatson> Jn: Drop "when presenting the menu ensure it's completely visible on screen"?
19:07:21 <LJWatson> BG: Yes.
19:07:40 <LJWatson> JN: Will add that to the menu bug so we do it in both places at the same time.
19:08:06 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27810
19:09:06 <LJWatson> JN: Last bullet under k'board interaction... seems understandable but incorrect.
19:09:29 <LJWatson> BirkirG: Usually a menu isn't more than 6/7 items.
19:09:43 <LJWatson> JN: Plus it's already in menu, doesn't need to be in menubutton too.
19:09:59 <LJWatson> BG: Yes.
19:10:56 <LJWatson> JN: Has anyone come across a hybrid menu/menubutton widget? A button section of buttons, and a menu section of buttons.
19:11:15 <LJWatson> JN: So a menu with menuitems and a default button action.
19:11:25 <LJWatson> BG: Yes. We need a pattern to handle this.
19:11:44 <LJWatson> BG: There is a labelling issue for one thing.
19:12:15 <LJWatson> JN: Not sure what the right solution is - better descriptions/interaction help, or two tab stops (one for the button and one for the menu).
19:12:43 <LJWatson> JN: Will log a placeholder bug so we don't lose this.
19:13:32 <LJWatson> BG: Call it a split button?
19:13:42 <LJWatson> LW: Split button menu pattern?
19:14:28 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27812
19:14:47 <LJWatson> BirkirG: Will need aria-expanded on it for example.
19:15:02 <LJWatson> JN: Depends on how it's implemented - we might need multiple pattern variations.
19:15:25 <LJWatson> zakim, take up next item
19:15:26 <Zakim> agendum 3. "3. Popup Menu: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#popupmenu" taken up [from jamesn]
19:15:35 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:15:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
19:16:13 <LJWatson> BirkirG: Essentially replacingbrowser context menu with custom menu.
19:16:32 <LJWatson> BG: How does it work in Jaws with Shift f10?
19:16:37 <LJWatson> JN: It isn't going to work.
19:17:05 <LJWatson> JN: This is usually used when there is already native focus.
19:18:00 <LJWatson> LW: Should we mention this in the pattern?
19:18:09 <LJWatson> JN: Yes think so.
19:18:28 <LJWatson> JG: So Shift f10 opens the context menu?
19:18:37 <LJWatson> JN: Yes.
19:18:57 <LJWatson> JN: Windows touch also has a way to hold down and invoke things like this.
19:19:22 <LJWatson> JN: There does need to be a gesture and/or an alternative for touch devices though.
19:19:52 <LJWatson> JG: Does it always replace the browser context menu?
19:20:15 <LJWatson> JN: Don't think you can support both on a single element/object.
19:20:28 <LJWatson> JN: No way to access/choose between different context menus.
19:22:57 <LJWatson> JN: If entire application had same custom context menu, the context of the thing you're on would have no impact. That doesn't make e it a good idea though.
19:23:45 <LJWatson> BG: A user in the virtual buffer of a screen reader wouldn't have access to it.
19:23:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:23:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
19:24:07 <jongund> i need to leave a little early for another meeting
19:24:11 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
19:26:22 <LJWatson> JN: What about advising that context menus should be focusable in order to provide the nescessary context to make them useful?
19:26:46 <LJWatson> BG: We might want to include the alternative of adding it through the body tag too?
19:27:42 <LJWatson> JN: What confuses me is that this seems to be targeted at clicking on whitespace, so where there is no focus.
19:28:41 <LJWatson> BG: Apart from the triggering mechanism, the resulting menu interaction should be the same.
19:28:56 <LJWatson> JN: So we can refer people back to the menu instead of replicating that guidance?
19:29:03 <LJWatson> BG: Yes.
19:29:08 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson
19:30:18 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
19:30:36 <jamesn> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27813
19:30:54 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
19:30:55 <Zakim> -LJWatson
19:30:56 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
19:30:58 <Zakim> -Birkir
19:30:59 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(ARIA)1:00PM has ended
19:30:59 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.217.244.aaaa, Jon_Gunderson, James_Nurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, LJWatson, +1.512.459.aabb, jemma, Ann_Abbott, +1.919.607.aacc, Birkir
19:33:37 <LJWatson> Present: James Nurthen, Matt King, Léonie Watson, Bryan Garaventa, Jemma Ku, Jon Gunderson, Birkir, Ann Abbot
19:33:43 <LJWatson> Chair: Matt King
19:33:49 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/12-aria-apg-minutes.html LJWatson