18:59:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:59:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-irc
18:59:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:59:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:59:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:59:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
18:59:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:59:23 <trackbot> Date: 08 January 2015
18:59:30 <Arnaud> you beat me to it!
19:00:13 <Arnaud> if only zakim would let me in...
19:00:35 <Arnaud> zakim hung up on me, not very friendly!
19:01:00 <pfps> is there a pointer to the ShEx tutorial from the WG wiki?
19:01:02 <Arnaud> zakim, this is shapes
19:01:02 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; that matches DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
19:01:10 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the call?
19:01:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, ericP, [IPcaller], pfps, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman
19:01:19 <ArthurRyman> ArthurRyman has joined #shapes
19:01:25 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P1 is me
19:01:25 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
19:01:28 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
19:01:30 <Zakim> + +30694579aaaa
19:02:01 <ericP> Zakim, +30694579aaaa is dimitris
19:02:01 <Zakim> +dimitris; got it
19:02:25 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the call?
19:02:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonSteyskal, ericP, [IPcaller], pfps, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, dimitris
19:02:51 <Zakim> + +1.510.435.aabb
19:02:53 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
19:03:11 <kcoyle> zakim, aabb is me
19:03:11 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
19:03:12 <ericP> Zakim, [IPcaller] is labra
19:03:12 <Zakim> +labra; got it
19:03:18 <Zakim> + +1.919.306.aacc
19:03:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:03:28 <SteveS> zakim, aacc is me
19:03:28 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
19:03:29 <Zakim> +??P1
19:03:33 <hknublau> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:03:33 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
19:03:49 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P1 is me
19:03:49 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
19:04:26 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the call?
19:04:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see ericP, labra, pfps, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, dimitris, kcoyle, SteveS, hknublau, SimonSteyskal
19:04:51 <Anamitra> Anamitra has joined #SHAPES
19:05:29 <kcoyle> i can scribe
19:05:53 <kcoyle> scribe: kcoyle
<kcoyle> chair: Arnaud
<kcoyle> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2015.01.08
19:06:02 <SimonSteyskal> http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html
<kcoyle> topic: Admin
19:06:50 <pfps> minutes look fine
19:07:34 <kcoyle> Resolved: Minutes of 12 December 2014 approved
19:08:01 <kcoyle> Arnaud: next call Jan 15
<kcoyle> topic: Tracking of actions & issues
19:08:25 <kcoyle> Arnaud: no open actions, but lots of issues
19:08:47 <kcoyle> ... anyone can raise an issue; group decides whether to open or not
19:09:20 <kcoyle> ... last call agreed to freeze user stories at this time; but there are issues, which have been raised
19:10:15 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #shapes
19:10:31 <kcoyle> ... proposes that we accept and open issues; maybe not have to discuss every one; stories authors can respond
19:11:18 <kcoyle> ... suggested process: owners of stories should be first to address issue and offer resolution
19:11:37 <pfps> q+ to ask whether we are in the "User Stories" section of the meeting
19:11:42 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:11:42 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to ask whether we are in the "User Stories" section of the meeting
19:12:28 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/raised
19:12:46 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:12:47 <Zakim> +??P27
19:13:00 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, ??P27 is me
19:13:00 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
19:13:02 <kcoyle> PROPOSED: open in bulk the 15 raised issues on User Stories
19:13:05 <pfps> I'm fine with opening all these issues :-)
19:13:22 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:13:31 <kcoyle> ArthurRyman: Q: grandfathering in these issues?
19:13:55 <kcoyle> Arnaud: without getting into detail; do we accept these as open issues?
19:14:16 <pfps> I think that what is under consideration here is whether there is some reason not to open these issues.
19:14:37 <ArthurRyman> +1
19:14:44 <kcoyle> Arnaud: issues are open unless there is an objection to one
19:14:47 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:14:49 <pfps> +1
19:14:50 <kcoyle> +1
19:15:12 <AxelPolleres> +1
19:15:47 <labra> +1
19:15:47 <ericP> +1
19:15:48 <SteveS> +1
19:15:50 <Dimitris> +1
19:16:15 <ericP> +ε
19:16:10 <kcoyle> RESOLVED: open in bulk the 15 raised issues on User Stories
19:16:59 <pfps> q+ to talk about the importance of the user stories and the important of getting the user stories fixed quickly
19:17:26 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Owners now need to address issue and see if it can be resolved
<kcoyle> topic: User stories
19:17:32 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:17:32 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to talk about the importance of the user stories and the important of getting the user stories fixed quickly
19:18:06 <kcoyle> pfps: Process is dragging on; would be good to get user stories in publishable shape by next week; then editor of that doc can complete task
19:18:28 <kcoyle> ...#2 user stories are important; group has to address that user story
19:18:40 <kcoyle> ... otherwise story could be vetoed
19:19:20 <kcoyle> Arnaud: No editor yet assigned/volunteered. Wiki page is previsional document that will need to be edited and formatted
19:19:46 <kcoyle> ... some of the issues may be addressed by the editor
19:20:00 <pfps> q+ to put forward a modest proposal
19:20:04 <kcoyle> +q
19:20:18 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:20:18 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to put forward a modest proposal
19:20:25 <ArthurRyman> in the interest of making progress, I will volunteer in the absense of others
19:20:40 <kcoyle> pfps: will volunteer, as long as only approved things ever get in it
19:20:42 <SimonSteyskal> i volunteer (maybe under the supervision of axel) ;)
19:21:16 <kcoyle> ericP: what does approved mean? will editor be gatekeeper of content and edits?
19:21:38 <kcoyle> pfps: if a story has comment on it, it is not finished
19:21:48 <kcoyle> ... wiki can have more than the finished note
19:22:24 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
19:22:43 <ericP> kcoyle: i think i could edit this doc but i don't know about the formatting. example?
19:22:51 <kcoyle> kcoyle: do we have an example?
19:22:52 <AxelPolleres> q+
19:23:46 <kcoyle> ericP: two levels: layout, and mechanics of editing (html? restack?) structure: look in TR pages for interesting examples
19:24:16 <pfps> my editing philosophy would be to not include any at risk stuff - everything in the note is at risk in some sense, as we don't know what is possible yet
19:24:17 <kcoyle> ... this doc will probably be use cases and requirements; in the end we'll want to connect those
19:24:27 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
19:25:02 <kcoyle> AxelPolleres: normal to have sections in working docs that have 'at risk' info
19:25:28 <kcoyle> pfps: adding to doc eliminates reason to finish stores
19:25:35 <kcoyle> ... stories
19:26:01 <AxelPolleres> fair enough.
19:26:08 <AxelPolleres> (for this specific document)
19:26:48 <AxelPolleres> Simon also volunteered, right?
19:27:05 <SimonSteyskal> yes
19:27:08 <SteveS> I can help as well, recently doing some LDP drafts
19:27:17 <SteveS> with the process and using the tools, that is
19:27:20 <SimonSteyskal> but I'm as experienced as karen ;)
19:27:46 <pfps> in some sense, the editors get to decide what information goes in the document and how it is presented
19:27:54 <kcoyle> Arnaud: Karen and Simon will be editors
19:27:57 <kcoyle> I'm fine with html
19:28:08 <SimonSteyskal> but I can query Axel as my knowledge base
19:28:16 <pfps> I've come to like ReSpec much better than I thought that I would  :-)
19:28:31 <SteveS> in LDP we used ReSpec to do the LDP-UCR doc, located at: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/ldp-ucr.html
19:28:56 <pfps> Eric is a *resource* for the WG - we should feel free to (ab)use him
19:29:29 <kcoyle> ACTION: Simon and Karen will be the editors. They will develop the document by ??
19:29:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-6 - And karen will be the editors. they will develop the document by ?? [on Simon Steyskal - due 2015-01-15].
19:29:38 <pfps> q+
19:29:50 <kcoyle> Arnaud: process: only transfer things with no issue open
19:29:51 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:30:17 <kcoyle> pfps: if editors wish a different process, I'm fine. But everyoone needs to get their stories into good shape
19:30:34 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:30:36 <kcoyle> Arnaud: story owners need to address issues
19:30:42 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:30:54 <kcoyle> ArthurRyman: How do you respond to an issue?
19:31:09 <kcoyle> Arnaud: you can edit the wiki directly
19:31:13 <pfps> There should be firm understanding that at some point only clean user stories will be in the note.
19:31:29 <pfps> q+
19:31:32 <kcoyle> ... if you have addressed the issue, mark the issue as pending in issue list
19:31:39 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:32:01 <AxelPolleres> q?
19:32:02 <kcoyle> pfps: also a good idea to respond to the email to make visible that you hav edone something
19:32:30 <kcoyle> ... not clear if editing issue sends an email
19:33:02 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Requirements document
19:33:24 <kcoyle> Arnaud: we have long list of proposed requirements (done by Holger); need people to review requirements and endorse them
19:33:45 <kcoyle> ... http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements
19:33:55 <pfps> I see that there are third endorsements where the third endorser has not changed the status
19:34:11 <kcoyle> Arnaud: added status line for names
19:34:28 <pfps> It's not too bad scanning the document, looking for nice colours.
19:35:19 <kcoyle> Arnaud: tag requirements  status using color
19:35:36 <kcoyle> ... more activity on this needed!
19:35:58 <kcoyle> ... add your name to the ones you endorse/think are important
19:36:16 <kcoyle> ACTION: everyone endorse requirements in list
19:36:16 <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/users>.
19:37:01 <pfps> There is no reason not to have a first version of the US&R documents being only User Stories
19:37:39 <kcoyle> Arnaud: use cases and requirements may be same document
19:38:00 <ericP> Dimitris, can you look at https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#S7:_Different_shapes_at_different_times.2C_or_different_access_at_the_same_time. to see if your comment applies also to https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#S4:_Issue_repository ?
19:38:35 <ericP> pfps propsed deleting and i'd second if that didn't leave your text homeless.
19:38:42 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Short description of the basic operation of each proposed solution
19:39:24 <pfps> I'm willing to put together a wiki page that has this information
19:39:29 <ericP> q+ to voice some confusion
19:39:35 <kcoyle> Arnaud: pfps: how do proposals function at lower level? This got no response. We should add a wiki page for this type of description
19:39:38 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:39:38 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to voice some confusion
19:39:58 <Dimitris> ericP, yes I deleted the comment
19:40:09 <kcoyle> ericP: During the chartering process asked questions about semantics of shape expressions
19:40:16 <Arnaud> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-data-shapes-wg/2014Dec/0251.html
19:40:21 <kcoyle> ... not sure how to square that with email questions
19:40:44 <kcoyle> pfps: no sure what shape expressions are supposed to validate; not clear where resource shapes validate
19:40:51 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:41:16 <kcoyle> ... for all proposals need a story that explains what they are trying to do, functionally
19:42:06 <kcoyle> Arnaud: this will probably bring up questions of terminology
19:42:21 <kcoyle> ... look at Peter's email and try to describe something similar for their own proposal
19:43:02 <kcoyle> pfps: this is your chance to put your technology forward for discussion; for all technologies, even those not included in final
19:43:16 <kcoyle> Arnaud: like the elevator speech for your proposal
19:43:25 <kcoyle> ACTION: Eric, for ShEx
19:43:25 <trackbot> Error finding 'Eric,'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/users>.
19:43:31 <Arnaud> q?
19:43:34 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:43:37 <kcoyle> ACTION: Arthur for resource shapes
19:43:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - For resource shapes [on Arthur Ryman - due 2015-01-15].
19:44:03 <kcoyle> ArthurRyman: to pfps, please clarify what is unclear
19:44:24 <kcoyle> pfps: for OWL, take RDF graph and colleciton of constraints that are validated against RDF graph
19:44:33 <ericP> q+ to say i believe pfps's examples are focused on discovery
19:45:03 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:45:03 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say i believe pfps's examples are focused on discovery
19:45:47 <kcoyle> ericP: the issue here is that Peter's doc is focused on discovery; other schema languages are agnostic to discovery
19:47:31 <kcoyle> pfps: has to be something that a program can 'have in hand'
19:48:11 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:48:17 <kcoyle> ericP: ShEx and ResShapes very similar in how this works
19:48:42 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:49:17 <kcoyle> ArthurRyman: confirms th eprocessing model: have node, apply ResShape
19:49:53 <kcoyle> ... volunteers to write formal semantics of group decision
19:50:52 <kcoyle> ACTION: Dimitris write up RDFUnit processing
19:50:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Write up rdfunit processing [on Dimitris Kontokostas - due 2015-01-15].
19:51:42 <ericP> pfps, do you see http://www.w3.org/2013/ShEx/FancyShExDemo?schemaURL=test/Issue-inheritance/schema.shex&dataURL=test/Issue-inheritance/pass-user-employee.ttl&colorize=true as giving you a thumbs up?
19:51:44 <kcoyle> TOPIC: Definition of "Resource"
<kcoyle> Arnaud: arthur and peter were to figure this out
19:51:53 <pfps> q+
19:52:02 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:52:05 <kcoyle> Arnaud: can we conclude what the email thread brought up
19:52:25 <kcoyle> pfps: pfps and ArthurRyman have clarified differences in understanding
19:52:48 <kcoyle> ... that concludes what resource shapes mean by resource
19:53:06 <kcoyle> ericP: what do we call nodes in graph, and what do we call non-literal?
19:53:59 <kcoyle> hknublau: I believe that there is no problem; in the specifications we should consistently used "IRI or blank node"; not use "resource" because overloaded
19:54:11 <pfps> q+
19:54:30 <kcoyle> ... other open issue is what to do with URI rdfs:resouce as range of property
19:54:54 <kcoyle> ... delay decision until we have a specific language candidate, because that will change the context
19:55:14 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:55:46 <kcoyle> pfps: disagree. group should use the word resource as used in w3c docs, and rdfs:resource as in RDF docs
19:55:53 <hknublau> +q
19:56:19 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:57:01 <kcoyle> hknublau: the terminology that is ten years old has not passed the test of time; we should not continue with things that do not work, have not become mainstream
19:57:39 <kcoyle> ... a new language is opportunity to propose a more intuitive use, with explanation of context
19:57:55 <kcoyle> ... propose that rdf:Resource should exclude literals
19:58:01 <AxelPolleres> holger, well, the most recent RDF spec is from feb 2014… I don’t think we can/should change terminology from there, if so, that would have been an issue to be raised in the RDF 1.1 WG
19:58:04 <AxelPolleres> q+
19:58:11 <Arnaud> ack AxelPolleres
19:58:33 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
19:58:43 <AxelPolleres> oops, I broke up...
19:58:57 <kcoyle> AxelPolleres: there is a group looking at terminology
19:59:00 <AxelPolleres> wanted to say: don’t think it’s our task to redefine RDF terminology.
19:59:21 <AxelPolleres> that has been done by the RDF 1.1 group, which closed its work a year ago.
19:59:26 <kcoyle> pfps: RDF 1.1 declined to change terminology; this should be out of scope for this group
19:59:29 <AxelPolleres> (not 10 years ago)
19:59:51 <pfps> I'm not happy using resource in the way that it is defined by W3C, but I'm not going to use it in other ways.
20:00:23 <pfps> q+
20:00:34 <kcoyle> hknublau: still think it will depend on the context of the solution; defer for later
20:00:42 <Arnaud> ack pfps
20:01:30 <kcoyle> pfps: would never agree to using RDF terminology in a way different from RDF standard; no need to wait
20:02:16 <AxelPolleres> this said, if we can find some *really simpler* terminology, and explain in the doc how it relates to RDF standard terminology, I have no objections, but I am not sure this is what we are chartered for.
20:02:39 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
20:02:40 <Zakim> -kcoyle
20:02:40 <Zakim> -hknublau
20:02:41 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
20:02:41 <Zakim> -dimitris
20:02:43 <Zakim> -labra
20:02:43 <Zakim> -Arnaud
20:02:48 <pfps> Sure, we could have something like constraints:whatever
20:02:51 <Dimitris> Dimitris has left #shapes
20:02:52 <Zakim> -ericP
20:02:53 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
20:02:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:02:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ericP, pfps, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, dimitris, +1.510.435.aabb, kcoyle, labra, +1.919.306.aacc, SteveS, hknublau, AxelPolleres
20:03:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
20:03:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-actions.rdf :
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Simon and Karen will be the editors. They will develop the document by ?? [1]
20:03:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-irc#T19-29-29
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: everyone endorse requirements in list [2]
20:03:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-irc#T19-36-16
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Eric, for ShEx [3]
20:03:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-irc#T19-43-25
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Arthur for resource shapes [4]
20:03:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-irc#T19-43-37
20:03:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Dimitris write up RDFUnit processing [5]
20:03:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/01/08-shapes-irc#T19-50-52
20:03:03 <Zakim> -pfps
20:03:09 <Zakim> -SteveS
20:03:10 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:03:10 <Zakim> Attendees were ericP, pfps, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, dimitris, +1.510.435.aabb, kcoyle, labra, +1.919.306.aacc, SteveS, hknublau, AxelPolleres
<kcoyle> present: ericP, pfps, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, dimitris, kcoyle, labra, SteveS, hknublau, AxelPolleres