15:43:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:43:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/22-dpub-irc
15:43:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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15:43:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:43:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
15:43:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:43:10 <trackbot> Date: 22 December 2014
15:48:35 <HeatherF> HeatherF has joined #dpub
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15:53:14 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:53:21 <Zakim> +clapierre
15:53:45 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
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15:56:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:56:35 <Zakim> +Tzviya
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15:57:29 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
15:57:35 <Zakim> +Markus
15:57:51 <mgylling> trackbot, start telcon
15:57:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:57:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM already started
15:57:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:57:56 <trackbot> Date: 22 December 2014
15:58:01 <Zakim> +[Ugent]
15:58:10 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ugent is me
15:58:10 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
15:58:22 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:58:30 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:58:54 <Zakim> +MikeMiller
15:59:21 <mgylling> regrets: Alan, Frederick, Phil, Vladimir, Julie
15:59:31 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
15:59:54 <HeatherF> And there's a newbie on the call.
16:00:07 <Zakim> +pkra
16:00:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:00:44 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:00:50 <mgylling> zakim, who is here?
16:00:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see clapierre, [IPcaller], Tzviya, Markus, bjdmeest, dauwhe, MikeMiller, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf
16:00:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, tmichel, bjdmeest, AH_Miller, mgylling, clapierre1, HeatherF, Zakim, RRSAgent, tzviya, Karen, dauwhe, ivan, liam, rego, iank__, mihnea_____,
16:00:53 <Zakim> ... astearns, plinss, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:00:54 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:55 <Zakim> +madi
16:00:55 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:57 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:01:13 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:01:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see clapierre, [IPcaller], Tzviya, Markus, bjdmeest, dauwhe, MikeMiller, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, Ivan
16:01:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, tmichel, bjdmeest, AH_Miller, mgylling, clapierre1, HeatherF, Zakim, RRSAgent, tzviya, Karen, dauwhe, ivan, liam, rego, iank__, mihnea_____,
16:01:15 <Zakim> ... astearns, plinss, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:01:38 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is HeatherF
16:01:38 <Zakim> +HeatherF; got it
16:02:12 <ivan> chair: markus
16:02:13 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
16:02:15 <Zakim> +??P0
16:02:24 <ivan> scribenick: bjdmeest
16:02:27 <tmichel> zakim, ??P0 is me
16:02:27 <Zakim> +tmichel; got it
16:02:45 <tmichel> zakim, who is here ?
16:02:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see clapierre, HeatherF, Tzviya, Markus, bjdmeest, dauwhe, MikeMiller, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, Ivan, Karen_Myers, tmichel
16:02:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, tmichel, bjdmeest, AH_Miller, mgylling, clapierre1, HeatherF, Zakim, RRSAgent, tzviya, Karen, dauwhe, ivan, liam, rego, iank__, mihnea_____,
16:02:47 <Zakim> ... astearns, plinss, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:02:49 <bjdmeest> Markus: topics: metadata and a11y
16:02:52 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #dpub
16:03:01 <bjdmeest> ... objections to last minutes?
16:03:09 <bjdmeest> .. no? approved
16:03:15 <bjdmeest> TOPIC: next meeting
16:03:29 <Zakim> +TimCole
16:03:37 <bjdmeest> Markus: options: 5 or 12 january
16:03:54 <Karen> DBW is 13-15 Jan.
16:04:09 <bjdmeest> ... Will enough people be around at the fifth?
16:04:09 <pkra> I'll be aroud.
16:04:11 <pkra> around.
16:04:18 <HeatherF> I will be available for both.
16:04:21 <clapierre1> yes will be there
16:04:23 <ivan> I'll be around
16:04:27 <bjdmeest> \me I'm available
16:04:28 <Karen> Karen not available; at CES in LV
16:04:29 <Bill_Kasdorf> I'll be available
16:04:30 <TimCole> I'll be around on 5th
16:04:36 <AH_Miller> Good dates
16:05:05 <bjdmeest> Markus: allright, I will not be available, but everyone else seems to
16:05:14 <bjdmeest> tzviya: We have a new member
16:05:40 <bjdmeest> Heather: I work with publishing IETF and so on
16:06:13 <bjdmeest> Markus: [gives new member advice]
16:06:26 <Karen> Welcome, Heather!
16:06:31 <tzviya> +1
16:06:35 <madi_> madi_ has joined #dpub
16:07:11 <bjdmeest> TOPIC: Metadata
16:07:43 <madi_> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-metadata/
16:07:48 <bjdmeest> Bill: everyone got a look at the draft of the notes
16:07:53 <Zakim> + +33.6.48.38.aaaa
16:08:14 <bjdmeest> ... We would move on with the publication, without section 2
16:08:29 <bjdmeest> ... Section 2 is replaced by a glossary (appendix A)
16:08:46 <bjdmeest> ... so section 2 is redundant, and section 3 will be renumbered
16:09:23 <bjdmeest> ... We sensed that this TF would not uncover any serious issues in OWP
16:09:42 <bjdmeest> ... while publishers have many metadata issues, the ground of these issues are not part of the OWP
16:09:50 <bjdmeest> ... some things might be refined
16:10:03 <HeatherF> no dropouts for me
16:10:12 <bjdmeest> ... but the problems are :
16:10:22 <bjdmeest> ... there are a gazillion vocabaries
16:10:30 <bjdmeest> ... there are very specific vocabularies
16:10:39 <Zakim> - +33.6.48.38.aaaa
16:10:53 <bjdmeest> ... W3C is providing a universal framework
16:11:05 <bjdmeest> ... to express those vocabularies
16:11:13 <Zakim> + +33.6.48.38.aabb
16:11:19 <Zakim> -Markus
16:11:23 <HeatherF> ah.  That's a good clarification for me; I was wondering if/how the archivist-themed metadata might fit in all this.
16:11:44 <bjdmeest> ... We found that there are many different groups working on similar issues
16:11:48 <Zakim> +Markus
16:11:58 <bjdmeest> ... we want them to express withing and between domains the issues they face
16:12:29 <bjdmeest> ... they all need to talk to each other
16:12:45 <bjdmeest> ... the second bullet point
16:12:57 <bjdmeest> ... tools and manuals of how to use metadata
16:13:22 <bjdmeest> ... there were 2 subprojects: how much expressions of ID as URIs are there, and how many works are there about RDF?
16:13:40 <bjdmeest> ... Madi started with a gigantic list of Identifiers
16:14:09 <bjdmeest> ... a majority of them _can_ be expressed as URIs, many of them _are_ expressed as URIs
16:14:16 <bjdmeest> ... but tends to be siloed
16:14:19 <tzviya> q+
16:14:34 <bjdmeest> ... there are areas where certain IDs are not expressed at all as URIs
16:14:43 <HeatherF> same
16:14:45 <Karen> same
16:15:24 <bjdmeest> ... ISBN is currently possible to be expressed as a URI
16:15:42 <bjdmeest> ... In both cases, the lists are not exhaustive
16:16:03 <TimCole> q+ about identifiers included in list
16:16:04 <bjdmeest> ... Appendix C also shows a list of RDF-resources
16:16:22 <TimCole> q+
16:16:34 <bjdmeest> ... one of our criteria was: would an executive read this?
16:16:40 <bjdmeest> ... this list is a starting point
16:16:58 <bjdmeest> ... the issue is chicken-and-egg: no-one uses it because no-one uses it
16:17:16 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
16:17:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see clapierre, HeatherF, Tzviya, bjdmeest, dauwhe, MikeMiller, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, Ivan, Karen_Myers, tmichel, TimCole, +33.6.48.38.aabb, Markus
16:17:17 <bjdmeest> ... What is needed is an expanding of these resources
16:17:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see madi_, TimCole, Bill_Kasdorf, pkra, tmichel, bjdmeest, AH_Miller, mgylling, clapierre1, HeatherF, Zakim, RRSAgent, tzviya, Karen, dauwhe, ivan, liam, rego, iank__,
16:17:19 <Zakim> ... mihnea_____, astearns, plinss, dkaplan3, trackbot
16:17:43 <bjdmeest> ... last point is to associate rights metadata with publications
16:17:48 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. ODL
16:18:04 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #dpub
16:18:21 <mgylling> s/ODL/ODRL/
16:19:38 <bjdmeest> ... personally, There should be an underlying framework to work with multiple vocabularies
16:20:18 <bjdmeest> ... conclusion: the more W3C can disseminate specs and technologies to increase the interoperability, the better
16:20:34 <bjdmeest> ... the note also includes the interviews (as mentioned before)
16:20:35 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:20:59 <bjdmeest> tzviya: question: who's the target audience?
16:21:18 <bjdmeest> ... there is a lot of assumed knowledge of publishing _and_ OWP
16:21:35 <bjdmeest> ... I think we need one perspective, and a little more targeted
16:21:49 <madi_> q
16:22:47 <bjdmeest> Ivan: for W3C the question is: is there any work to be done by W3C?
16:23:03 <bjdmeest> ... that was the starting position
16:23:46 <tmichel> who is calling from france with +33.6.48.38.aabb ?
16:24:15 <bjdmeest> Madi: I think we should have this one doc, with extra deepening docs
16:24:56 <bjdmeest> Bill: This is more a progress reports, we don't want to replicate material that already existed
16:25:27 <mgylling> q?
16:25:56 <mgylling> ack TimCole
16:26:13 <bjdmeest> TimCole: there are some very usefull documents on the Web
16:26:21 <bjdmeest> ... about URIs etc
16:26:40 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:26:56 <bjdmeest> ... One of the things that came up: what are good example URIs?
16:27:06 <bjdmeest> ... e.g., Google URI is not neutral
16:28:00 <bjdmeest> ... the tradeoff: do we want to include useful URIs, even though they are tied to organizations?
16:28:11 <ivan> q?
16:28:12 <Karen> +1 include library communties
16:28:44 <bjdmeest> Ivan: [about not including google IDs]
16:28:56 <tzviya> q+
16:29:20 <bjdmeest> ... The google way examplifies an organization that does some work for itself, and adds some useable URIs for itself
16:29:39 <bjdmeest> ... if we do that, we should add more than just Google URIs (e.g., Gutenberg, Europeana, etc)
16:30:06 <bjdmeest> ... atm, the current URIs are standard or from a group of organizations
16:30:20 <bjdmeest> Bill: trade publishers will say: what about Amazon?
16:30:33 <bjdmeest> Ivan: indeed
16:30:43 <bjdmeest> ... We can review the note in a year
16:30:58 <bjdmeest> ... but now, we need to be consistent
16:31:23 <bjdmeest> TimCole: do we have text in the note about those IDs (Google, Amazon), that explains the rationale?
16:31:28 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:31:29 <bjdmeest> Bill: that should be good
16:31:57 <bjdmeest> tzviya: Explanation about only listing the non-proprietary IDs would be good
16:33:07 <bjdmeest> Bill: The note could be publishable with the changes mentioned? (leaving out section to and adding the URI explanation)
16:33:33 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:33:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:33:43 <ivan> PROPOSED: the metadata report should be published as a NOTE in January
16:34:15 <Karen> +1 add some context per Tzviya's suggestion
16:34:17 <HeatherF> I think those subsequent projects would be useful
16:34:27 <bjdmeest> Bill: question: do we want to alude to the point that we want to do subsequent projects?
16:34:58 <bjdmeest> Ivan: ATM, I am not sure that we have reasonable chances to do more projects properly
16:35:06 <ivan> +1
16:35:12 <mgylling> +1
16:35:13 <bjdmeest> +1
16:35:17 <HeatherF> +1
16:35:18 <laudrain> +1
16:35:19 <madi_> +1
16:35:19 <clapierre1> +1
16:35:20 <pkra> +1
16:35:22 <TimCole> +1
16:35:25 <tzviya> +1
16:35:34 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
16:35:44 <dauwhe> +1 with edits suggested by Tzviya
16:35:48 <ivan> RESOLUTION: the metadata report should be published as a NOTE in January (modulo some editing)
16:36:15 <bjdmeest> TOPIC: A11Y
16:36:21 <AH_Miller> +1
16:36:23 <clapierre1> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-accessibility/wiki
16:37:16 <bjdmeest> clapierre: The wiki has three sections
16:37:59 <bjdmeest> ... We are going to see which techniques are relevant for DPUB
16:38:24 <bjdmeest> ... then, from that sublist, we go from the google sheets to the wiki
16:38:36 <bjdmeest> ... as there are a lot of people working on these techniques list
16:38:48 <bjdmeest> ... afterwards, we will dig into the relevant techniques
16:38:56 <bjdmeest> ... and look for comments, provide examples
16:39:20 <bjdmeest> ... our ultimate goal is to create an accessible note on a11y
16:39:39 <bjdmeest> ... with comments of what publishers should be aware of, and what we might need
16:39:53 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:40:05 <bjdmeest> ... I am not sure if we need to be concerned about ARIA, except for UAAG WCAG and ATAG
16:40:21 <mgylling> ack Bill_K
16:40:50 <bjdmeest> Bill_K: observation: what is your target audience?
16:40:56 <ivan> q+
16:41:44 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we want guidelines for publishers, not for W3C recommendation
16:42:03 <bjdmeest> ... if there are gaps, we would escalate that to protocols and standards, for example
16:42:03 <mgylling> ack Ivan
16:42:52 <bjdmeest> Ivan: question: whether the 3 docs (WCAG etc) cover what the publishers need
16:43:01 <bjdmeest> ... that needs to be answered to the W3C groups
16:43:12 <bjdmeest> ... this is easier than metadata, easier to separate
16:43:32 <bjdmeest> ... 2nd question: what are the used techniques
16:43:43 <bjdmeest> ... again, less of a problem then for metadata TF
16:44:12 <bjdmeest> ... [about ARIA] that work is very different, this TF should focus on the current 3, and put ARIA aside for the moment
16:44:27 <tzviya> q+
16:44:56 <mgylling> q?
16:44:57 <Zakim> - +33.6.48.38.aabb
16:45:00 <mgylling> ack tzviya
16:45:39 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we just got the google sheets done, and linked from our wiki, now it is a matter of filtering the content
16:45:55 <bjdmeest> ... we will concentrate in the first quarter of 2015 if the status is good
16:46:27 <bjdmeest> tzviya: concern: It looks like an enormeous amount of work, do you have enough resources to move forward?
16:46:50 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I will link to the google sheets, then everybody can edit
16:47:46 <bjdmeest> Markus: [about whether this is the right approach] I certainly think they are not out of scope, this is very relevant work
16:48:04 <bjdmeest> ... starting with the guideline trio is good to me
16:48:46 <bjdmeest> ... covering DPUB needs in these documents using ARIA? No, ARIA covers very rudimentary html pages, not books or magazines
16:48:56 <mgylling> q?
16:48:57 <bjdmeest> ... we don't need to throw ourselves at that right now
16:49:18 <bjdmeest> Markus: [about resources] what is your timeline for hitting a first readable version?
16:49:30 <bjdmeest> clapierre: we are with a dozen or less, we could be a lot bigger
16:49:39 <bjdmeest> .. if anyone is interested, we need some extra help
16:50:11 <bjdmeest> ... this TF has always had a difficulty to find people
16:50:35 <bjdmeest> ... a lot of people, a lot of timezones (for organizing conf calls)
16:50:50 <bjdmeest> ... I hope to get something by the end of the first quarter
16:51:13 <Zakim> + +33.6.48.38.aacc
16:51:16 <mgylling> q?
16:51:16 <bjdmeest> ... Once experts have determined what is relevant, we can go from the google sheets to the Wiki
16:51:23 <bjdmeest> ... but no fixed timeline
16:51:49 <bjdmeest> Markus: So, once all google sheets are ready, they are all fed into the wiki?
16:51:53 <bjdmeest> clapierre: yes
16:52:20 <ivan> zakim, aacc is Luc
16:52:20 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
16:52:36 <bjdmeest> Markus: There is a lot of work
16:52:45 <bjdmeest> ... How can the IG stay connected to this?
16:53:16 <bjdmeest> clapierre: I don't have any ideas, tzviay is on our TF as well
16:53:59 <bjdmeest> tzviya: It would be good to have a (bi-)weekly telcon, maybe on alternating timezones
16:54:47 <bjdmeest> ... to have, e.g.,  something finished by the end of january, and DPUB issues can be solved starting from february
16:55:14 <bjdmeest> Markus: that concludes today, and that concludes this year
16:55:27 <bjdmeest> ... next telcon on january 5th 2015
16:55:35 <HeatherF> Thanks all!
16:55:43 <pkra> happy holidays!
16:55:43 <laudrain> happy new year
16:55:45 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:55:45 <tzviya> happy new year
16:55:46 <Zakim> -Markus
16:55:46 <Zakim> -madi
16:55:46 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:55:47 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:55:47 <Zakim> -clapierre
16:55:48 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:55:48 <Zakim> -Luc
16:55:50 <Zakim> -TimCole
16:55:50 <Zakim> -HeatherF
16:55:54 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:55:55 <laudrain> laudrain has left #dpub
16:55:55 <Zakim> -pkra
16:55:56 <mgylling> +regrets Ayla
16:55:57 <Zakim> -MikeMiller
16:56:00 <Zakim> -tmichel
16:56:01 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:56:01 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
16:56:01 <Zakim> Attendees were clapierre, Tzviya, Markus, bjdmeest, dauwhe, MikeMiller, pkra, Bill_Kasdorf, madi, Ivan, HeatherF, Karen_Myers, tmichel, TimCole, +33.6.48.38.aaaa, +33.6.48.38.aabb,
16:56:01 <Zakim> ... +33.6.48.38.aacc, Luc
16:56:15 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:56:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/22-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
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