13:58:50 RRSAgent has joined #dwbp 13:58:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/19-dwbp-irc 13:58:52 RRSAgent, make logs 351 13:58:52 Zakim has joined #dwbp 13:58:54 Zakim, this will be DWBP 13:58:54 ok, trackbot, I see DATA_DWBP()9:00AM already started 13:58:55 Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 13:58:55 Date: 19 December 2014 13:59:11 Eric_Kauz has joined #DWBP 13:59:29 +[IPcaller.a] 13:59:29 rrsagent, make logs public 13:59:32 Zakim, IPcaller.a is me 13:59:32 +JoaoPauloAlmeida; got it 13:59:38 zakim, who is here? 13:59:38 On the phone I see [IPcaller], +1.609.947.aaaa, JoaoPauloAlmeida 13:59:40 annette_g has joined #dwbp 13:59:40 On IRC I see Eric_Kauz, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, JoaoPauloAlmeida, rhiaro_, phila, hadleybeeman, sandro, trackbot 13:59:45 hello all 13:59:49 zakim, [ipcaller] is me 13:59:49 +deirdrelee; got it 13:59:50 zakim, aaaa is me 13:59:51 +Eric_Kauz; got it 13:59:58 zakim, who is here? 13:59:59 On the phone I see deirdrelee, Eric_Kauz, JoaoPauloAlmeida 14:00:00 On IRC I see annette_g, Eric_Kauz, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, JoaoPauloAlmeida, rhiaro_, phila, hadleybeeman, sandro, trackbot 14:00:43 AdrianoC-UFMG has joined #dwbp 14:01:07 MTCarrasco has joined #dwbp 14:01:12 +??P13 14:01:13 +HadleyBeeman 14:01:17 chair: deirdrelee 14:01:36 zakim, ??P13 i sme 14:01:36 I don't understand '??P13 i sme', MTCarrasco 14:01:47 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20141219 14:01:52 zakim, ??P13 is me 14:01:52 +MTCarrasco; got it 14:01:56 +[IPcaller] 14:02:00 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:02:00 +phila; got it 14:02:23 + +1.510.384.aabb 14:02:25 - +1.510.384.aabb 14:02:54 + +1.510.384.aacc 14:03:04 zakim, who is here? 14:03:06 On the phone I see deirdrelee, Eric_Kauz, JoaoPauloAlmeida, MTCarrasco, HadleyBeeman, phila, +1.510.384.aacc 14:03:06 On IRC I see MTCarrasco, AdrianoC-UFMG, annette_g, Eric_Kauz, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, JoaoPauloAlmeida, rhiaro_, phila, hadleybeeman, sandro, trackbot 14:03:22 ericstephan has joined #dwbp 14:03:47 zakim, aacc is annette_g 14:03:48 +annette_g; got it 14:03:57 newton has joined #dwbp 14:04:07 +ericstephan 14:04:09 scribe: phila 14:04:15 Caroline__ has joined #DWBP 14:04:30 hadleybeeman has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20141219 14:04:38 Bernardette just e-mailed: "I am in a meeting and I'm gonna be a little bit late." 14:05:12 Hello! We are dialing 14:05:21 hello, caroline__! 14:05:21 deirdrelee: Opens the meeting 14:05:21 Newton and I 14:05:23 +??P28 14:05:28 gatemezi has joined #dwbp 14:05:28 ... lots of mail and progress around the BP doc 14:05:36 +Reinaldo 14:05:43 Hi all 14:05:43 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20141219 14:05:44 Zakim, ??28 is AdrianoC-UFMG 14:05:44 sorry, AdrianoC-UFMG, I do not recognize a party named '??28' 14:05:51 Zakim, Reinaldo is Caroline__ 14:05:51 +Caroline__; got it 14:05:54 Zakim, ??P28 is AdrianoC-UFMG 14:05:54 +AdrianoC-UFMG; got it 14:05:59 Zakim, Caroline__ has newton 14:05:59 +newton; got it 14:06:10 http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-12-12 14:06:23 PROPOSED: Accept last week's minutes 14:06:24 +1 14:06:26 +1 14:06:29 +1 14:06:31 +1 14:06:37 +1 14:06:38 +1 14:06:40 +1 14:06:46 RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes 14:06:53 +1 14:07:17 deirdrelee: We haven't officially said that we won't have meetings for the next 2 weeks 14:07:43 deirdrelee: Date of the next meeting is 9 January 2015 14:08:06 hadleybeeman: Of course others can use the zakim bridge for an informal meeting if so desired 14:08:19 deirdrelee: I'm going to swap items 1 and 2... 14:08:39 deirdrelee: Tomas asked to add COMURI to the agenda so we'll talk about that today 14:08:47 topic: The Use Case doc 14:08:57 I send regrets in advance because I will be on vacation! Coming back for the meeting on January 23 :) 14:09:15 deirdrelee: A couple of weeks ago I went back to the UCR. We decided to go through the existing UCs to see if we could extract more reqs from them 14:09:47 ... with hindsight, such and such a requirement does apply to my use case. So we can strengthen our requirements and maybe drop some and add some new ones 14:10:04 ... so I went through them all and asked the authors to do the same. Lots have done that 14:10:30 ... I ma currently going through those replies. When doing this I had difficulty mapping the UCs and Reqs so I set up a little RDF model to help me 14:11:10 scribe: hadleybeeman 14:11:51 deirdrelee: I'm going through the feedback I've received; will have a new version for the group to review by the next meeting on 9 Jan. 14:12:12 ... Any comments/questions? Authors, was it useful to enhance your use cases? 14:12:27 ... Hopefully it will be useful for the other deliverables then 14:12:27 q+ 14:12:34 scribe: phila 14:12:48 Thanks deirdrelee. It was very useful 14:13:00 ericstephan: TNhank you Deirdre for doing that. We can see where all the use cases and requirements match up 14:13:12 ack eric 14:13:19 ... I thought it would be a lot more work than it turned out to be thanks to Deirdre's actions 14:13:45 deirdrelee: It's for myself as well. I added a couple of UCs myself earlier on and I;m questionaing how valuable they are now the doc is as it is 14:13:56 MakxDekkers has joined #dwbp 14:14:10 topic: BP Doc 14:14:13 q+ 14:15:01 Caroline__: I would just suggets that we can change the order a little and talk about the vocabs before Bernadette comes. 14:15:12 .. Newton and I are here but it's best if Bernadette were here 14:15:45 yes I can talk 14:15:54 thank you! 14:15:57 Topic: Data Usage Vocab 14:15:58 +[IPcaller] 14:16:08 zakim, ipcaller is me 14:16:09 +MakxDekkers; got it 14:16:09 ericstephan: Bernadette and I have been talking to each other outside the schedule 14:16:12 BernadetteLoscio has joined #dwbp 14:16:22 zakim, mute me 14:16:22 MakxDekkers should now be muted 14:16:23 welcome BernadetteLoscio! :) 14:16:34 hello! 14:16:38 ... she proposed different targets for us a few weeks ago and we've been iterating on the date schedule. She and I are meeting after this meeting today and we'll report back 14:17:19 ericstephan: We haven't been doing a whole lot since the TPAC but Bernadette has been doing a lot on BP and we're working on a concrete schedule 14:17:31 deirdrelee: Could you remind us of the current status? 14:17:44 ericstephan: Before the f2f we were doing quite a bit of work to identify new UCs 14:18:21 +[IPcaller] 14:18:25 ... that would give us new Reqs for the vocab. We're continuing on with that. We have a draft of the vocab based on new scenarios. They're on the wiki (will add pointer by mail later) 14:18:30 zakim, ipcaller is BernadetteLoscio 14:18:30 +BernadetteLoscio; got it 14:18:33 ... we're hoping for feedback from the WG on that 14:18:39 zakim, mute BernadetteLoscio 14:18:39 BernadetteLoscio should now be muted 14:19:02 ... and then we can extract the data usage scenarios. Hoping that within a short time we'll be able to make progress 14:19:07 +1 for it being 6:00 in the morning 14:19:45 hi Eric! 14:19:53 thats good! 14:20:29 yes! 14:20:44 ericstephan: We had a question about whether some of these things would be in the UCs and/or in the vocab document 14:20:55 q+ to help ericstephan out here (I hope) 14:21:19 ericstephan: We tried before the f2f to find UCs that we could incorporate in the UCR 14:21:39 ... but maybe we could add some stories as primer to the vocab 14:21:43 q? 14:21:47 ack caroline 14:21:59 ack Caroline__ 14:22:01 ack me 14:22:01 phila, you wanted to help ericstephan out here (I hope) 14:22:18 http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-dcat/ 14:23:00 Phil examples +1 14:23:22 phila: UCs give you evidence for what you need to do. The vocab spec can then tell a story about how to use it and why it's the way it is 14:23:23 Illustrations +1 14:23:31 +1 to examples! 14:23:34 thanks! 14:23:39 topic: Bp Doc 14:23:51 zakim, unmute BernadetteLoscio 14:23:51 BernadetteLoscio should no longer be muted 14:24:00 deirdrelee: There has been lots of mailing list activity so... over to you Bernadette 14:24:09 BernadetteLoscio: We have had a lot of discussion on the list, thank you 14:24:22 ... but we still don't have a consensus about the audience of the doc 14:24:38 ... yesterday I sent a message trying to summarise where we are. 14:24:54 ... I think we have some agreement in termns of what data consumers we are talking about 14:25:16 ... but we still need to agree on what is going to be the audience of the doc 14:25:28 ... are we talking about developers or consumers, for example 14:25:40 ... in the beginning we said we'd have the BPs for data publishers and BPs for developers 14:26:08 RiccardoAlbertoni has joined #DWBP 14:26:11 ... but the discussion ... some people think we should just address publishers. Maybe BPs for developers should be in anotehr doc 14:26:43 link of the mail sent by BernadetteLoscio yesterday at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2014Dec/0145.html 14:26:44 ... Second point - if we just have publishers as the audience - or is it also interesting for developers to know about publishers' BPs 14:27:02 CarlosIglesias has joined #dwbp 14:27:31 ... this is the main point of discussion. Maybe Anette and makx want to say something? 14:27:31 q? 14:27:37 +RiccardoAlbertoni 14:27:41 ... there has been a lot of info this week 14:27:47 ... it's important to have comments from the group 14:28:14 BernadetteLoscio: Eric S and Laufer think the audience should be both publishers and developers 14:28:28 ... my opinion is that we should consider both 14:28:38 +1 (for both) 14:28:57 hi all, sorry if I join in the call so late .. 14:29:00 publishers and developers +1 14:29:01 q+ 14:29:03 BernadetteLoscio: The terms we use are important 14:29:42 BernadetteLoscio: It's the same people discussing the topic - we need to come to a resolution 14:29:43 terms +1 - the must be formal difinitons 14:30:02 BernadetteLoscio: One more thing... we are also working on a picture for the data lifecycle 14:30:17 @MTCarrasco agreed very important to have good definitions 14:30:32 ... Ghislain, Makx and Christophe have been looking at that. Feedback would be good 14:30:35 +1 to BernadetteLoscio 14:30:40 ack ericstephan 14:31:15 ericstephan: I think Tomas put it in IRC - part of the challenge is that we come up with definitions of what we mean by certain things. Whilst focusing on the BP doc, 14:31:33 ... there were some disagreements about where theere would be places for data consumers that may be outside the BP docv 14:31:40 s/docv/doc/ 14:31:55 ericstephan: It's vital for us to have clear terms so that we can share 14:31:57 +[IPcaller] 14:31:58 deirdrelee: +1 14:32:08 +1 14:32:15 zakim, IPcaller is me 14:32:15 +CarlosIglesias; got it 14:32:15 deirdrelee: When I was going gthrough the open Issues and Actions that were about definitions 14:32:26 ... we already have recorded what we need to define 14:32:41 In addition to fulfill the function of specification, the docs should be usable as tutorial 14:32:43 ... maybe we need a new wiki page for ourselves that we may or may not surface in the doc 14:32:47 +1 to Deirdre 14:32:48 ericstephan: That sounds reakly useful 14:32:51 q+ 14:32:51 q+ to 14:32:52 s/gthrough/through 14:32:56 q+ 14:32:57 q- later 14:33:00 q+ 14:33:06 ack BernadetteLoscio 14:33:08 ack BernadetteLoscio 14:33:09 s/reakly/really 14:33:17 BernadetteLoscio: I think the last meeting we were talking about this 14:33:23 q- to 14:33:28 q+ later 14:33:32 q- 14:33:37 yes that's right @bernadette 14:34:03 BernadetteLoscio: Yaso was at that meeting 2 weeks ago and we decided to create a wiki page 14:34:08 ... for definitions 14:34:17 deirdrelee: So does that wiki page exist yet? 14:34:22 BernadetteLoscio: Don't know 14:34:25 I don't think an action was made 14:34:53 BernadetteLoscio: As soon as we find a defn that's important, we should be able to put it on the wiki there and then 14:34:56 Could the author or authors of the definitions also be put in the table? 14:35:07 just so we have a point of reference? 14:35:33 Before we do, deirdrelee... can I jump in? 14:35:34 Wiki pages could be harmful - one should consider Editor's Draft with the appropriate definitons and a terminoligy section 14:35:53 ack had 14:35:57 q+ 14:36:01 +1 to MTCarrasco 14:36:10 https://indiewebcamp.com/Category:building-blocks 14:36:26 hadleybeeman: The other way of approaching this might be... the Indie WebCamp have created on the wiki a new page for every new concept 14:36:41 ... they can point to it and keep a trial for each topic 14:37:18 deirdrelee: If people are adding conent to a wiki page for definitions, does that distract from the docs 14:37:24 ack me 14:37:40 s/conent/content 14:38:25 phila: my take on this is the majority is targeting people producing data whether it is publishers or re-users. 14:38:55 Zakim, who is talking? 14:38:59 zakim, who is making noise? 14:39:06 JoaoPauloAlmeida, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: HadleyBeeman (90%), phila (43%) 14:39:17 deirdrelee, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: deirdrelee (37%), phila (62%) 14:39:23 phila: if you want to know who was using the data, you might want to use a form, you want to encourage use of metadata 14:39:59 phila: reusers let publishers people are doing with their data. that's the target. 14:40:17 q+ 14:40:34 phila: steering people from sign up forms and using data usage vocabulary.... 14:40:36 q+ 14:40:39 +1 :) 14:40:41 ack MTCarrasco 14:40:54 MTCarrasco: Coming back to terminology. 14:41:11 @phila, double check my notes I hop I captured it, I think I missed a few things with the noise. 14:41:16 ... we have to produce formal specs. Wikis can be dangerous. Better to use the format it will be in later on 14:41:26 +1 to MTCarrasco 14:41:29 q+ 14:41:45 ... maybe terms defined in the doc. Maybe one of the editors for each doc takes responsibility for collecting term definitions in the doc in the final format 14:41:51 ack BernadetteLoscio 14:42:18 BernadetteLoscio: Replying to Phil - I like that approach to give BPs for publishers to help reusers to give feedback 14:42:51 ... I'm still not convinced that the doc is really only for publishers 14:43:09 ... developers won't have an interest if it's only for publishers 14:43:11 q+ 14:43:16 ... so I;m not 100% sure 14:43:19 +1 to BernadetteLoscio about developers being interested on the document of BP 14:43:28 q- 14:43:34 zakim, unmute me 14:43:34 MakxDekkers should no longer be muted 14:43:39 ack annette_g 14:43:43 q+ 14:44:11 annette_g: +1 to Phil. I think the usage vocab will address the primary that we want to convey to users that they should let publishers know what they've done 14:44:32 ... and I also wanted to suggest that the doc could be for primary and secondary audiences 14:44:58 ... there is a 2ndary interest in reading over the doc by consumers so they know what to expect 14:45:01 +1 14:45:08 phila: +1 to annette_g 14:45:12 deirdrelee: +1 14:45:21 +1 14:45:29 deirdrelee: In terms of audience - who is going to implement the BPs - that's the primary audience 14:45:30 +1 to deirdrelee 14:45:42 Just wrote an e-mail message to the list on this 14:45:44 +1 14:45:45 ... but the data users can put pressure on publishers to follow the BPs 14:46:05 q+ 14:46:17 deirdrelee: Also to respond to Tomas - in terms of the glossary, oyu suggetsed that we go straight to the structure of the published doc, I;m not sure that I agree 14:46:18 +1 to using a wiki initially 14:46:21 +1 to difference of primary and secondary audience 14:46:48 ... as not all terms are detined for publication and the wiki is easier to collect ideas. GitHug etc. is not as good for brainstorming 14:47:02 +1 to the wiki 14:47:07 q? 14:47:10 s/GitHug/GitHub/ 14:47:14 ... might make more sense to have a central page that can be referenced 14:47:23 q+ 14:47:34 MakxDekkers: I put myself on the queue but I think both deirdrelee and annette_g said what I was going to say 14:47:34 I'm 100% with deirdrelee. If we need to publish a glossary document out of what's on the wiki, then we can. And we can decide that at any time. 14:47:41 ... the audience is the group opf people we want to do things 14:47:47 ... that doesn't mean the doc is only for them 14:48:15 ... people qwho want to use the data can see what publishers can/should do and if they don't, the publisher can be contacted and encouraged 14:48:26 +1 to maxkdekkers 14:48:37 s/opf/of 14:48:49 s/qwho/who 14:48:51 BernadetteLoscio: I like the idea of the 1ry and 2ry audiences - I'm happy 14:49:05 BernadetteLoscio: So I propose to revise the intro to reflect this 14:49:36 q- 14:49:50 deirdrelee: So do you want to make a proposal about audiences now? 14:50:04 I was going to agree, as BernadetteLoscio just said. +1 to make a proposal! 14:50:06 yes please do so I can sleep :-) 14:50:14 ack deirdrelee 14:50:15 +1 for sleep 14:50:28 MTCarrasco_ has joined #dwbp 14:50:29 @annette :-) 14:50:32 ericstephan: so chairs don't sleep? 14:50:33 q+ 14:50:43 q+ 14:50:48 PROPOSED: The BP document has a primary audience of data publishers and a secondary audience of developers and reusers 14:50:52 ack BernadetteLoscio 14:50:58 That's my first stab... 14:51:02 q? 14:51:06 I understand now why we have so many chairs in this group ;) 14:51:32 BernadetteLoscio: One more thing... I want to know about the FPWD. What's the schedule 14:52:22 ack MakxDekkers 14:52:34 q- 14:52:45 phila: Publish w/c 26 Jan, means resolving w/c 19 Jan so needs to be ready w/c 12 Jan 14:52:48 q+ 14:52:50 i did 14:52:54 q- 14:52:58 @bernadette just as Steve A said in the email we don't have to get everything in the first draft 14:53:08 PROPOSED: The BP document has a primary audience of data publishers and a secondary audience of developers and reusers 14:53:18 +1 14:53:20 +1 14:53:21 +1 14:53:22 +1 14:53:24 +1 14:53:24 +1 14:53:26 +1 14:53:26 +1 14:53:27 +1 14:53:27 +1 14:53:29 +1 14:53:31 +1, because it makes sense with our scope that we agreed at the TPAC f2f https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Scope 14:53:48 q? 14:53:50 http://dragoman.org/comuri - proposal to go for First Public Working Draft 14:53:57 Topic: COMURI 14:54:05 woo hoo! The right the write 14:54:06 q- 14:54:06 :):):) 14:54:09 MTCarrasco: I'd like to propose that the COMURI document goes to FPWD 14:54:22 ... it was commented on several months ago and I answered those comments 14:54:22 q+ 14:54:35 ack MTCarrasco_ 14:54:38 Ack hadleybeeman 14:55:03 hadleybeeman: I would love to have the conversation - there's a lot to talk about. But as we didn't put this on the agenda 24 hours' notice 14:55:09 ... formal decisions need 24 hours' notice 14:55:32 deirdrelee: When I sent the agenda yesterday I didn't know but added it afterwards when Tomas wrote to me 14:56:00 MTCarrasco_: So we can schedule for it 9 Jan, that's OK 14:56:18 MTCarrasco_: I sent it out, I answered the comments. I took some parts out and it now just addresses the URIs 14:56:41 ... the BP doc talks about data indentification but not into the details of the URI design 14:56:52 ... in the document I took everything into account. 14:56:59 q? 14:57:03 ... I believe that URIs are an important part of data on the Web 14:57:24 q+ to talk about this resolution about the Best Practices and formats http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-10-31#resolution_5 14:58:01 and this one too: http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2014-10-31#resolution_6 14:58:11 BernadetteLoscio: For me the COMRUI doc is far from the BP doc - I need to take a look and think about it some more. We need to see what should and shouldn't fit in the BP doc 14:58:25 MTCarrasco_: I don't think everything inCOMURI fits in the BP doc 14:58:31 ... It should be separate 14:58:49 deirdrelee: So we'll put that on the agenda for 9 Jan 14:59:01 ... maybe it's not as straightforward and it's a great starting point 14:59:22 MTCarrasco_: we talked a lot of about having a FPWD - this one has been ready for nearly 3 months 14:59:30 deirdrelee: Yes, but the process has to fit in with everything else 14:59:37 +1 14:59:40 q? 14:59:44 q- 14:59:45 q- hadleybeeman 14:59:54 Feliz Natal! 15:00:01 Happy Xmas!!! 15:00:03 happy xmas !! 15:00:19 Thank you! Merry Christmas! 15:00:30 happy holidays, all!! 15:00:30 deirdrelee: Closes the meeting and Felice Navidad 15:00:31 Best wishes to everyone! Merry Christmas, Happy New Year! 15:00:32 bye! 15:00:33 -MTCarrasco 15:00:36 -Eric_Kauz 15:00:36 Happy xmas and New Year!! 15:00:37 -JoaoPauloAlmeida 15:00:37 Bye all! 15:00:37 -annette_g 15:00:38 -HadleyBeeman 15:00:40 -Caroline__ 15:00:42 -CarlosIglesias 15:00:42 Good parties and vacations for everybody! A nice break and see ya! Happy New Year!!! 15:00:43 -MakxDekkers 15:00:46 -phila 15:00:49 -ericstephan 15:00:50 -BernadetteLoscio 15:00:58 thanks, philA. Brilliant scribing. :) 15:00:59 -AdrianoC-UFMG 15:01:05 -RiccardoAlbertoni 15:01:12 annette_g has left #dwbp 15:01:19 @hadleybeeman - agreed! 15:01:23 zakim, who is here? 15:01:25 On the phone I see deirdrelee 15:01:25 On IRC I see BernadetteLoscio, Caroline__, ericstephan, AdrianoC-UFMG, Eric_Kauz, Zakim, RRSAgent, deirdrelee, rhiaro_, phila, hadleybeeman, sandro, trackbot 15:01:32 -deirdrelee 15:01:32 DATA_DWBP()9:00AM has ended 15:01:32 Attendees were +1.609.947.aaaa, JoaoPauloAlmeida, deirdrelee, Eric_Kauz, HadleyBeeman, MTCarrasco, phila, +1.510.384.aabb, +1.510.384.aacc, annette_g, ericstephan, AdrianoC-UFMG, 15:01:32