18:59:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
18:59:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-shapes-irc
18:59:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
18:59:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
18:59:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
18:59:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
18:59:11 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
18:59:11 <trackbot> Date: 18 December 2014
18:59:59 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
19:00:08 <ArthurRyman> ArthurRyman has joined #shapes
19:00:17 <BartvanLeeuwen> BartvanLeeuwen has joined #shapes
19:01:00 <Arnaud> zakim, this is shapes
19:01:00 <Zakim> ok, Arnaud; that matches DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM
19:01:09 <Arnaud> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:01:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, kcoyle, ??P6, pfps, jimkont, Arnaud
19:01:21 <Zakim> +Arthur_Ryman
19:01:21 <hsolbrig> hsolbrig has joined #shapes
19:01:32 <SimonSteyskal> zakim, ??P2 is me
19:01:32 <Zakim> +SimonSteyskal; got it
19:01:39 <Zakim> +magyarblip
19:01:42 <Zakim> -??P6
19:02:03 <hknublau> hknublau has joined #shapes
19:02:08 <Zakim> +??P6
19:02:21 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim: ??P6 is me
19:02:28 <BartvanLeeuwen> Zakim, ??P6 is me
19:02:28 <Zakim> +BartvanLeeuwen; got it
19:02:38 <Zakim> +Tony
19:02:42 <Zakim> +ericP
19:03:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:03:26 <hknublau> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
19:03:26 <Zakim> +hknublau; got it
19:03:43 <Arnaud> zakim, tony is temporarily hsolbrig
19:03:43 <Zakim> +hsolbrig; got it
19:04:30 <Dimitris> zakim jimkont is me
19:05:10 <hsolbrig> scribe: hsolbrig
<hsolbrig> chair: Arnaud
<hsolbrig> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.12.18
<hsolbrig> topic: Admin
19:06:52 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: new Scribe.perl not in cvs yet. EricP will submit
<hsolbrig> ... generated minutes now have a summary of resolutions
<hsolbrig> ... with ids on resolutions so they can be linked to
19:06:58 <hsolbrig> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 11 December Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-shapes-minutes.html
19:07:06 <pfps> Yay that we can now point to resolutions in minutes.
19:07:14 <pfps> The minutes from last week look OK.
19:07:16 <hsolbrig> Minutes approved
19:07:26 <hsolbrig> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 11 December Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-shapes-minutes.html
19:07:44 <hsolbrig> Next meeting on January 8, 2015
19:07:44 <ericP> scribenick: hsolbrig
19:07:47 <andimou> andimou has joined #shapes
19:08:26 <SimonSteyskal> you have to prepend the name of the person who's is speaking
19:08:31 <hsolbrig> Action 5 is completed and wiki page has been created for requirements
<hsolbrig> topic: User stories
19:10:25 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: Stories page is frozen.  New stories will only be insterted if approved by the group.
19:10:56 <hsolbrig> PROPOSED: "Freeze" and approve the user stories we've collected as of 18 December 2014
19:10:57 <pfps> q+
19:11:16 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:11:24 <hsolbrig> pfps: I think there is a lot that isn't appropriate to approve in that document.
19:12:07 <hsolbrig> pfps: Happy to say that these are our stories, but it is still possible to challenge story and perhaps drop.
19:12:35 <hsolbrig> pfps: Comments in documents have no responses.
19:13:03 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: we should turn comments into issues and discuss
19:13:08 <hsolbrig> PROPOSED: "Freeze" the user stories we've collected as of 18 December 2014
19:14:04 <hsolbrig> Arnaud:  Frozen stories are considered in proposed stage.  People should raise separate issues for every story they have an issue with.
19:14:08 <pfps> I'm happy raising issues for stories that are not in what I consider an acceptable state.
19:14:21 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:14:23 <hsolbrig> +1
19:14:23 <pfps> +1
19:14:25 <magyarblip> +1
19:14:26 <kcoyle> +1
19:14:29 <ericP> +1
19:14:32 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
19:14:33 <Dimitris> +1
19:15:05 <hsolbrig> RESOLVED: "Freeze" the user stories we've collected as of 18 December 2014
19:15:48 <pfps> I'm fine with "approved by default"
19:16:16 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: Default will be to approve user story unless an issue is raised.
19:16:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-shapes-minutes.html ericP
<hsolbrig> topic: Requirements
19:17:13 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: pfps and hknublau created requirements wiki page (https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Requirements)
19:17:52 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: Disagreement on how we get from proposed to approved.  Is intermediate step required?
19:18:58 <hsolbrig> pfps: Propose "contract" - if requirement is under consideration, every working group member has to understand it.  Needs to be an intial step -- "I think this could be a requirement..."
19:19:42 <hsolbrig> ericP: One person has to understand it before it moves to under consideration...
19:20:31 <hsolbrig> pfps: DC had 200+ requirements to be evaluated.  Need some way to triage
19:20:56 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: How do we determine getting things moved to under consideration?
19:21:29 <hsolbrig> pfps: Need to be sure that  every requirement gets serious examination and we don't have 200 all at once.
19:22:47 <hsolbrig> pfps: PROPOSED: Every member reviews requirement and it needs least one second before it goes to a vote.
19:23:14 <SimonSteyskal> http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=73865&public=1
19:23:24 <SimonSteyskal> ;)
19:23:57 <hsolbrig> Arnaud:  Requirements have someones name associated with them.  People endorse requirements by adding their name to them  threshold of 2-3 names (2 too low?)
19:24:21 <magyarblip> how about ensuring the seconder is semantically distinct from the proposer?
19:24:23 <pfps> I'm fine with endorsements coming via tags on the wiki page.  Maybe then there should be both positive and negative votes?
19:25:20 <hsolbrig> ericP: Issue with requirements changing while being clarified.
19:25:55 <hsolbrig> ericP:  Voting includes refinement?
19:25:57 <pfps> q+
19:26:03 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:26:49 <hsolbrig> pfps: Things could get dropped back to proposed stage if there is confusion or voters were mistaken about what they voted for.
19:27:47 <hsolbrig> hknublau:  I'm happy with any process as long as there is reasonable timeline.  What is role of stories and requriements in big picture?  At what stage do we address proposed solutions?  When do we shift to actual work?
19:28:49 <hsolbrig> Arnaud:  Wish we could go faster.  Process is evaluate stories and requirements then look at proposed solutions.  Not sure how to go faster without folks feeling that things are not fair.
19:29:57 <hsolbrig> hknoblau:  Requirements need to developed along with solution.  We could create thousands of requirements, but solution may explode.  Solution must be concise and sufficient for the job.
19:30:38 <hsolbrig> hnkoblau:  If we delete requirements too early we may throw away good things
19:32:24 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: Suggest we start looking at the requirements and read through them, people can add their initials to them.  Third person moves section to under consideration.  In a week or two we should be able to start talking about proposed solutions
19:34:10 <hsolbrig> hnkoblau: suggest "+" or "-" that allows people to express their concern
19:34:51 <pfps> I'm not against keeping the requirements in place, but there should be some better way of tagging them.  Setting up classes would be fine, as long as it was easy to see the status of the requirements.
19:35:35 <hsolbrig> arnaud: We can discuss the write method to tag things, but from a process perspective I feel this is reasonable
19:36:12 <hsolbrig> PROPOSED: People should add their name (initials) to requirements they think ought to be considered, if there are three persons endorsing  a requirement it is then "under consideration"
19:36:21 <hsolbrig> +1
19:36:22 <SimonSteyskal> +1
19:36:33 <hknublau> +1
19:36:41 <pfps> +1
19:36:43 <Dimitris> +1
19:36:50 <ArthurRyman> +1
19:36:52 <kcoyle> +1
19:37:04 <BartvanLeeuwen> +1
19:37:14 <hsolbrig> RESOLVED: People should add their name (initials) to requirements they think ought to be considered, if there are at least three persons endorsing  a requirement it is then "under consideration"
19:37:46 <hsolbrig> Arnaud: We cannot allow this to go on for too long.  Tag soon!
19:38:02 <ericP> +1
19:39:04 <hsolbrig> pfps:  Feel free to comment without voting + or -
19:39:38 <hsolbrig> topic: Issue-5
19:40:11 <pfps> q+
19:40:37 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:41:10 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:41:14 <hsolbrig> pfps: Two issues.  First is use of the word "Resource".  Dick Cheney is a "Resource", working group is not trying to find Dick Cheney's shape.
19:41:47 <hsolbrig> ericP: Even if we misuse "resource" to refer to graph nodes, we still need to make this publishable.
19:41:51 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:42:22 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: May want to describe the shape of an information resource that describes Dick Cheney.
19:42:32 <hsolbrig> pfps: What is the "shape" of a web page?
19:43:43 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: We are talking about rdf information resources not web pages.  An RDF graph is a representation of an "information resource", you can GET through http.  We are concerned about RDF information resources
19:44:09 <hsolbrig> pfps: The RDF representation of an information resource is a graph that *describes* a resource.
19:44:45 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: you never get an information resource you get an representation of it.
19:46:13 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyam: You may have a URL that is a picture of Dick Cheney.  You can negotiate for format (.png , gif, etc).
19:46:40 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: Shape is a term that is used to describe expected content and constraints of RDF Graph
19:47:01 <hsolbrig> pfps:  Two different communities in this working group
19:47:39 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman:  Personally I'm interested in linked data aspect, others in community are more interested in pure RDF.  Need to be relevant to linked data world.
19:48:33 <hsolbrig> Arnaud:  Peter started a glossary -- maybe we should hash this out offline and add definitions to the glossary?
19:49:00 <ericP> q+ to make a plea for a term in a graph which has properties conforming to some "shape"
19:49:08 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:49:19 <hsolbrig> pfps:  If anyone is going to refer to "Resource" they need to deliniate what it is or isn't.  Even "web resource" isn't sufficient
19:49:28 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:49:28 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to make a plea for a term in a graph which has properties conforming to some "shape"
19:50:07 <hsolbrig> ericP: Objective is to come up with some term that describes a "term in a graph"  a subject or object of a set of triples and a pattern around it.  Do we agree?
19:50:29 <hsolbrig> pfps:  We have "Node", which includes literals.
19:50:35 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:51:00 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: We can have an identifier for Dick Cheney, and that can be a node in a graph.  What is the objection?
19:51:13 <hsolbrig> pfps: Is the node unrepentent?
19:51:47 <hsolbrig> pfps:  Need to differentiate what software can work with (graph) and what it can't (Dick)
19:52:11 <hsolbrig> +q
19:52:33 <Arnaud> ack hsolbrig
19:52:48 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:53:32 <ericP> hsolbrig: i agree with pfps's point. ran into issues when working with ericP on the [ShEx] draft about separating nodes from their dentation.
19:53:40 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
19:53:51 <ericP> ... a node could be about dick cheynei, but for shapes, it's just a node.
19:54:18 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: We're defining shapes for nodes in a graph.  Shape describes graph, not just a node...
19:54:38 <hsolbrig> Is he the good twin?
19:55:48 <ericP> i now believe "rooted graph" is the better understood term of art. i got "pointed graph" working with someone who translated it from french.
19:55:49 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman:  You could say that a node on a graph that contains 12 arcs.  Real world examples of disconnected graphs exist.
19:56:23 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman:  Json doesn't require things in JSON/ JSON LD to be completely connected.
19:56:46 <pfps> For these situations to be considered, I would very much like to have some stories and use cases for them.
19:58:06 <hsolbrig> Arnaud:  I think Peter objects to "resource" because we are inheriting from RDF.  Maybe we need to invent a placeholder term to facilitate the discussion?
19:58:09 <pfps> q+
19:58:30 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:58:59 <ericP> q+ to nominate pfps anyways
19:59:01 <ArthurRyman> q+
19:59:09 <hsolbrig> pfps:  Don't know what the target is supposed to be. What I think we're talking about already has a perfectly good RDF name.
19:59:10 <Arnaud> ack ericP
19:59:10 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to nominate pfps anyways
19:59:43 <ArthurRyman> SEE s35 https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/User_Stories#S35:_Describe_disconnected_graphs
20:00:03 <Arnaud> ack ArthurRyman
20:00:06 <hsolbrig> ericP: I suspect we need a term for a set or island of data.
20:00:38 <hsolbrig> ArthurRyman: I don't see conflict, we just need to describe what we are talking about. Suggest 1-1 call
20:00:49 <ericP> s/I suspect we need/I suspect that Arthur wants/
20:00:54 <hsolbrig> pfps:  What else is there besides "node" and "rdf/graph"
20:01:50 <hsolbrig> Arnaud:  We need an answer for the next call.  Peter and Arthur need to duke it out and have an answer to the thing we're talking about in issue 5.
20:02:00 <ericP> i suspect that disconnected graphs are implicitly connected, and that should be made explicit before validation.
20:02:53 <Zakim> -hsolbrig
20:02:55 <BartvanLeeuwen> bye
20:02:55 <Zakim> -Arthur_Ryman
20:02:57 <pfps> Thanks to Arnaud for fixup up the minutes script.
20:02:57 <Zakim> -hknublau
20:02:58 <Zakim> -kcoyle
20:03:00 <Zakim> -SimonSteyskal
20:03:00 <Zakim> -magyarblip
20:03:01 <Zakim> -BartvanLeeuwen
20:03:01 <Zakim> -jimkont
20:03:02 <Zakim> -pfps
20:03:05 <Zakim> -Arnaud
20:03:15 <Zakim> -ericP
20:03:17 <Zakim> DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM has ended
20:03:17 <Zakim> Attendees were kcoyle, pfps, jimkont, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, magyarblip, BartvanLeeuwen, ericP, hknublau, hsolbrig
<hsolbrig> present: kcoyle, pfps, jimkont, Arnaud, Arthur_Ryman, SimonSteyskal, magyarblip, BartvanLeeuwen, ericP, hknublau, hsolbrig
<hsolbrig> regrets: SteveS
20:03:23 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
20:03:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
20:03:23 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
20:03:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:03:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
20:03:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
20:03:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items