15:26:23 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
15:26:23 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/17-annotation-irc
15:26:25 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:26:25 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #annotation
15:26:27 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
15:26:27 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 34 minutes
15:26:28 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
15:26:28 <trackbot> Date: 17 December 2014
15:44:25 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Dec/0084.html
15:46:08 <fjh> Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:47:29 <fjh> Regrets+ Raphaël_Troncy, Timothy_Cole, Jacob_Jett
15:47:37 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
15:51:17 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #annotation
15:52:04 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
15:54:06 <azaroth> Thanks Frederick!
15:54:13 <Zakim> DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has now started
15:54:20 <Zakim> +azaroth
15:54:43 <fjh> zakim, code?
15:54:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 2666 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
15:54:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:54:57 <fjh> zakim, ipcaller is me
15:54:57 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
15:55:14 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:55:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh
15:55:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar, JakeHart, bigbluehat, nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_, rhiaro, renoirb,
15:55:16 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:55:23 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
15:56:48 <rayd> rayd has joined #annotation
15:57:31 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?
15:57:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh
15:57:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see rayd, tbdinesh, azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar, JakeHart, bigbluehat, nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_,
15:57:32 <Zakim> ... rhiaro, renoirb, trackbot
15:58:26 <Zakim> +dauwhe
15:58:53 <paoloC> paoloC has joined #annotation
15:58:59 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
15:59:10 <Jacob> present+ Jacob_Jett
15:59:23 <Zakim> + +1.202.707.aaaa
15:59:34 <davissalisbury> davissalisbury has joined #annotation
15:59:40 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:59:45 <Zakim> + +1.617.768.aabb
16:00:13 <rayd> present+ Ray_Denenberg
16:00:13 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:00:13 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:00:14 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:00:24 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, +1.202.707.aaaa, [IPcaller], +1.617.768.aabb, Ivan
16:00:26 <tbdinesh> dinesh
16:00:26 <Zakim> On IRC I see davissalisbury, Jacob, paoloC, rayd, tbdinesh, azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar, JakeHart, bigbluehat,
16:00:26 <Zakim> ... nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_, rhiaro, renoirb, trackbot
16:00:28 <Zakim> + +1.434.971.aacc
16:00:35 <azaroth> Zakim, aabb is PaoloC
16:00:35 <Zakim> +PaoloC; got it
16:00:35 <paoloC> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
16:00:36 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
16:00:41 <azaroth> zakim, [IPCaller] is rayd
16:00:41 <Zakim> +rayd; got it
16:00:43 <tbdinesh> aabb is dinesh
16:00:45 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer
16:00:51 <ivan> zakim, aabb is dinesh
16:00:52 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
16:00:53 <Kyrce> Kyrce has joined #annotation
16:01:02 <azaroth> zakim, forget rayd
16:01:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'forget rayd', azaroth
16:01:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #annotation
16:01:09 <azaroth> zakim, aaaa is rayd
16:01:09 <Zakim> +rayd; got it
16:01:15 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?
16:01:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, rayd.a, rayd, PaoloC, Ivan, +1.434.971.aacc
16:01:17 <ivan> Present+ Dinesh
16:01:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, Kyrce, davissalisbury, Jacob, paoloC, rayd, tbdinesh, azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar,
16:01:17 <Zakim> ... JakeHart, bigbluehat, nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_, rhiaro, renoirb, trackbot
16:01:25 <fjh> zakim, where is 434?
16:01:25 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.434 is Virginia
16:01:29 <azaroth> zakim, rayd.a is dinesh
16:01:29 <Zakim> +dinesh; got it
16:01:33 <azaroth> zakim, who is here?
16:01:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, dinesh, rayd, PaoloC, Ivan, +1.434.971.aacc
16:01:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, Kyrce, davissalisbury, Jacob, paoloC, rayd, tbdinesh, azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar,
16:01:35 <Zakim> ... JakeHart, bigbluehat, nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_, rhiaro, renoirb, trackbot
16:01:35 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:01:42 <azaroth> present+ Rob_Sanderson
16:01:43 <fjh> zakim, aacc is davissalisbury
16:01:43 <Zakim> +davissalisbury; got it
16:01:51 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:01:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, dinesh, rayd, PaoloC, Ivan, davissalisbury, Bill_Kasdorf
16:01:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, Kyrce, davissalisbury, Jacob, paoloC, rayd, tbdinesh, azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar,
16:01:53 <Zakim> ... JakeHart, bigbluehat, nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_, rhiaro, renoirb, trackbot
16:02:06 <ivan> Present+ David_Salisbury
16:02:13 <Zakim> + +1.845.665.aadd
16:02:30 <azaroth> zakim, aadd is Kyrce
16:02:30 <Zakim> +Kyrce; got it
16:02:36 <Zakim> + +1.650.274.aaee
16:02:49 <fjh> zakim, where is 650?
16:02:49 <Zakim> North American dialing code 1.650 is California
16:03:01 <azaroth> zakim, aaee is dwhly
16:03:01 <Zakim> +dwhly; got it
16:03:05 <dwhly> Present+ Dan_Whaley
16:03:22 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
16:03:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, dinesh, rayd, PaoloC, Ivan, davissalisbury, Bill_Kasdorf, Kyrce, dwhly
16:03:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bill_Kasdorf, Kyrce, davissalisbury, Jacob, paoloC, rayd, tbdinesh, azaroth, fjh_, Zakim, RRSAgent, fjh, dauwhe, tripu, ivan, MorbusIff, shepazu, MarkS, Mitar,
16:03:24 <Zakim> ... JakeHart, bigbluehat, nickstenn, oshepherd, dwhly, stain_, rhiaro, renoirb, trackbot
16:03:34 <Kyrce> Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
16:03:36 <davissalisbury> Just noting that my name is Davis, not David (common mistake!)
16:03:44 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
16:04:18 <paoloC> I would add to the agenda an updated in relation to the F2F meeting
16:04:47 <azaroth> paolo: Yes, +1, we should do that first
16:04:54 <fjh> Topic: Agenda Review, Scribe Selection, Announcements
16:05:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:30 <JakeHart> Present+ Jake_Hartnell
16:05:48 <fjh> fjh: add agenda item for F2F
16:05:53 <ivan> scribenick: dwhly
16:06:05 <dwhly> Topic: Minutes approval
16:06:09 <fjh> Topic: Minutes Approval
16:06:22 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: 3rd December 2014 minutes approved:
16:06:22 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2014/12/03-annotation-minutes.html
16:06:35 <fjh> Note:  No minutes from the cancelled call last week.
16:06:44 <dwhly> Topic: Using annotation within the group
16:07:02 <dwhly> @azaroth: add F2F discussion first
16:07:14 <fjh> s/Using.*/F2F Planning/
16:07:31 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
16:07:38 <dwhly> fjh: Thought we were discussing different dates
16:07:55 <azaroth> scribenick: azaroth
16:07:56 <fjh> s/dates/dates and places/
16:07:57 <Zakim> +Ruben
16:08:05 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ruben is me
16:08:05 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
16:08:13 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:08:20 <azaroth> dwhly: PaoloC and dwhly plus some folks from MIT tried to see if Boston would work for a venue for I Annotate
16:08:43 <azaroth> ... closer to europe, would move things around, dwhy very open to see the conference move around
16:08:59 <azaroth> ... explored options for a week, and it didnt work out in terms of securing the venue for enough consecutive days
16:09:29 <azaroth> ... and when we could also get space for hackathon and so on. Conflicting priorities and schedules, such as graduations in the area doubled hotel room cost
16:09:51 <azaroth> ... gave it a good shot and came away with the conclusion that we need an earlier start, eg sept rather than december
16:10:01 <azaroth> ... so have secured same San Francisco facility
16:10:17 <azaroth> ... Weds April 22nd as available for a face to face for the WG
16:10:20 <fjh> q+
16:10:34 <azaroth> ... Would need to know if we want to do that, if so will make the plans
16:10:50 <azaroth> ... conference then is April 23, 24, and hack days at the weekend 25, 26
16:11:05 <azaroth> ack fjh
16:11:19 <azaroth> fjh: Curious if the dates are firm, or if could be a week later?
16:11:24 <azaroth> dwhly: dates are firm
16:11:27 <fjh> q?
16:11:30 <ivan> q+
16:11:47 <azaroth> ... weeks either sides are bad
16:11:53 <azaroth> ack ivan
16:12:11 <azaroth> ivan:  I raised the concern a few weeks ago about location, so propose to accept the 22nd and move on
16:12:40 <azaroth> fjh: Might have a problem, but a low probability
16:12:57 <fjh> not clear yet, might have a conflict
16:13:08 <csillag> csillag has joined #annotation
16:13:14 <azaroth> rayd: Funding still in play?
16:13:41 <azaroth> dwhly: We have 2 grants in process here, with Sloan and Mellon. Should be a fair amount of travel support for people attending the conference
16:13:51 <azaroth> If you happen to show up early, that's great and we'll cover the extra hotel day
16:14:42 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: 22 April F2F (1 day) in conjunction with iAnnotate conference 23-24 April, in San Francisco
16:14:58 <fjh> RESOLUTION: 22 April F2F (1 day) in conjunction with iAnnotate conference 23-24 April, in San Francisco
16:15:13 <ivan> scribenick: dwhly
16:15:19 <fjh> much thanks to dwhly for organizing this
16:15:23 <Jacob_> Jacob_ has joined #annotation
16:15:34 <Zakim> + +36.2.020.7.aaff
16:15:48 <shepazu> q+
16:15:51 <dwhly> Topic: Using annotation within the Working Group
16:16:09 <fjh> q?
16:16:09 <csillag> Zakim, +36.2.020.7.aaff is me.
16:16:11 <Zakim> +csillag; got it
16:16:16 <dwhly> azaroth: Have people tried it, did you find it useful, is there anything we can do to improve it
16:16:48 <dwhly> ... we know for instance that there is a bug in replying to posts, and if you navigate using an anchor, it doesn't work properly
16:17:07 <dwhly> ... can we do a straw poll
16:17:23 <dwhly> shepazu: I just want to note that the annotation system is not working
16:17:39 <Jacob_> Jacob_ has joined #annotation
16:17:40 <dwhly> ... I thought I'd socialized this properly with the W3 Systems team
16:18:01 <dwhly> ... this was a little surprising... so in case people were wondering why it's not working that's why
16:18:23 <dwhly> ... so you won't be able to see annotations, or use it till we get that resolved.
16:18:37 <dwhly> azaroth: Do you have an estimate?  Sounds like a lengthy process.
16:19:10 <dwhly> shepazu: Hoping that it's before xmas, but not sure.  I will say that TimBL was on the call and that he was enthusiastic about the spec annotations, and that he thought it was a good idea.
16:19:28 <azaroth> q?
16:19:35 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:19:57 <dwhly> shepazu: I have used the system.... if we want to take a straw poll... not exactly sure what that would be.
16:20:06 <ivan> q+
16:20:07 <bjdmeest> q+
16:20:09 <rayd> not
16:20:11 <shepazu> +1
16:20:11 <dwhly> azaroth: Poll have people used it or not?
16:20:12 <tbdinesh> used it, but not extensively
16:20:12 <Zakim> + +1.864.787.aagg
16:20:52 <dwhly> ivan: I've used it, ran into a few minor problems... the only question is where do we draw the line between annotating and using the issue tracker on gh
16:21:21 <bigbluehat> sorry, that's me
16:21:22 <dwhly> azaroth: Yes, I agree.  And that was part of the discussion before.  What can we do to mitigate this?
16:21:36 <ivan> zakim,, aagg is bigbluehat
16:21:36 <Zakim> I don't understand ', aagg is bigbluehat', ivan
16:21:43 <ivan> zakim, aagg is bigbluehat
16:21:43 <Zakim> +bigbluehat; got it
16:21:50 <bigbluehat> thank you ivan
16:21:59 <dwhly> ... I think one of the mitigating factors is that there is the channel to the list, which has some kinks but seem to be working.
16:22:01 <bigbluehat> I'd registered it previously...but I guess it feel off :(
16:22:05 <shepazu> q+
16:22:15 <ivan> ack ivan
16:22:17 <dwhly> ... If we had the same list on gh then that would be the canonical place
16:22:34 <dwhly> ... There has been some discussion around using gh
16:22:48 <fjh> q?
16:22:50 <dwhly> ... So what do people think about the separation of conversations
16:22:51 <fjh> Q+
16:22:52 <Zakim> -davissalisbury
16:22:55 <azaroth> ack bjdmeest
16:22:59 <azaroth> q?
16:23:04 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:23:21 <dwhly> shepazu: I think we should look at the separation of conversations in a couple ways
16:23:23 <tbdinesh> is there a way to annotate an annotation and link it to an issue on github
16:23:37 <Zakim> +davissalisbury
16:24:14 <dwhly> ... 1) certainly this does divide the conversation.  The fact that the annotations are on the mailing list is a unifying factor.  And that gh issues are on the mailing list is a unifying factor
16:24:25 <dwhly> ... so the mailing list is a good place for discovery.
16:24:46 <dwhly> ... when I left my first annotation dwhly pinged me on IRC
16:25:01 <dwhly> ... so the mailing list seems to be a good place for discussion
16:25:24 <dwhly> ... when I see a link in the ML from gh, I click through to read it on gh
16:25:46 <dwhly> ... I don't think the separation of discussion won't be a big deal because of the discoverabilitty
16:25:58 <dwhly> ... 2) the question is the workflow for the editors
16:26:19 <dwhly> ... the big issue I've seen is the inability for people to give feedback in the first place
16:26:26 <dwhly> ... it's unclear to folks how to do that.
16:26:39 <dwhly> ... giving people multiple options is a good way to do that.
16:26:51 <dwhly> ... I'd like to share briefly... the traditional workflow is:
16:26:58 <dwhly> ... First you write the specification
16:27:57 <fjh> q/
16:27:59 <fjh> q?
16:29:13 <azaroth> ack fjh
16:29:27 <dwhly> fjh: So, I'm not eactly sure what the issue is we're trying to resolve
16:29:43 <dwhly> ... I think context is important.  Annotations provide a great benefit in that regard...
16:29:48 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
16:29:58 <dwhly> ... For comments that are editorial, annotations are the way to go...
16:30:16 <dwhly> ... Using issue tools is probably better for larger things we want to keep track over time...
16:30:20 <shepazu> (or feature requests)
16:30:42 <dwhly> ... Also, important that people not only raise issues, but also propose solutions
16:30:53 <shepazu> q+
16:30:56 <dwhly> ... And yes, the tool is great
16:31:01 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:31:23 <dwhly> Shepazu: Good point fjh.  I think we'll establish best practices...
16:31:40 <dwhly> ... i.e. propose solutions, not just problems...
16:31:54 <dwhly> ... like be sure to leave a tag...
16:32:24 <dwhly> ... azaroth you had a couple pieces of feedback, not sure where you're sending it
16:32:49 <dwhly> ... but speaking to places where the conversation is split, I'd like to capture feedback in the spec annotation CG
16:33:08 <dwhly> ... now annotations are public by default
16:33:09 <Zakim> -csillag
16:33:13 <Zakim> +??P0
16:33:23 <csillag> Zakim, ??P0 is me
16:33:23 <Zakim> +csillag; got it
16:33:25 <fjh> example of issue best practices ‘general recommendations for raising issues’ https://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Overview.html#issues (member only)
16:33:33 <dwhly> ... and now the canonical targets work, so the dated spec versions track to the master
16:33:48 <dwhly> ... and we do have a gh tracker for spec annotations too
16:33:49 <azaroth> q?
16:33:56 <fjh> (however not suggesting using tracker, prefer annotation mechanism)
16:33:59 <Zakim> -Kyrce
16:34:27 <dwhly> azaroth: For the record, the issue I ran into was in replying.  The note sent to the mailing list didn't have the context
16:34:37 <fjh> q+
16:34:54 <dwhly> ... if you go to the TOC and you have link, then it loses the context (?)
16:35:26 <azaroth> ack fjh
16:35:33 <dwhly> fjh: How is the membership proceeding w/ the CG
16:35:40 <dwhly> ... is there a lot of interest
16:35:55 <dwhly> shepazu: No. But folks from H. are participating.
16:36:00 <dwhly> ... but people don't know about it.
16:36:09 <fjh> need to hook into the respec folks
16:36:19 <dwhly> ... but there are requests to put it on CSS specs
16:36:38 <dauwhe> q+
16:36:39 <dwhly> ... because they operate more locally
16:36:54 <dwhly> azaroth: it seems TPAC next year would be good time
16:37:09 <dwhly> ... so just to wrap
16:37:30 <dwhly> ... any other issues with the tool / discussions...
16:37:41 <dauwhe> q-
16:37:44 <dwhly> Topic: Use cases
16:37:49 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/community/spec-annotation/
16:38:19 <dwhly> azaroth: What is the status of transcription, analysis.  How can we get more submissions.... especially where we're weaker
16:39:01 <dwhly> Bigbluehat: So the q of participation is tricky.  We've posted to the list, but we haven't gone hunting
16:39:21 <dwhly> ... we are looking for support from the rest of you
16:39:33 <dwhly> ... the H. team can mostly provide client side ones
16:39:48 <dwhly> ... we'd like a lot more from other folks
16:40:01 <dwhly> PaoloC: I go with the first question: transcription
16:40:18 <dwhly> ... I've been traveling, but we have 3 new use cases
16:40:30 <dwhly> ... (Ray's) use cases are on the wiki
16:40:44 <dwhly> ... the second one one is going to get a sentence too
16:41:00 <dwhly> ... if you look at the cross-format use case in particular
16:41:23 <dwhly> ... we are down to three use cases
16:41:37 <dwhly> ... I can contribute from Annotopia, but it's not an elaborate one
16:41:49 <dwhly> ... Some will overlap from the EPUB use cases
16:42:02 <dwhly> ... But we need more input in terms of protocol and client API
16:42:06 <azaroth> ack rayd
16:42:12 <dwhly> azaroth: I can contribute from the Stanford set
16:42:21 <dwhly> ... lots of overlap w/ Annotopia
16:42:38 <Jacob> with regards to cross-format I have one from the HTRC that I can contribute.
16:42:41 <tbdinesh> dinesh
16:43:03 <dwhly> tbdinesh: I cannot edit the wiki, but I sent via email
16:43:23 <dwhly> ... sent a few weeks ago
16:43:34 <dwhly> ... one on accessibility ... <can't hear>
16:43:42 <Jacob> There's also the juxtaposition of targets (i.e., compound targets) use case from Digital Emblematica. Does that need to be formally written up in the wiki?
16:44:08 <azaroth> q?
16:44:17 <Jacob> From a modelling standpoint I feel like its adequately supported.
16:44:30 <dwhly> azaroth: jacob had a comment on IRC (above)
16:44:41 <dwhly> ... does that need to be written up?  yes.
16:44:44 <ivan> Dinesh's Use case: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2014Nov/0102.html
16:45:03 <shepazu> q+
16:45:08 <dwhly> ... To what degree do annotations provide insight into what a annotation is and what its not
16:45:27 <dwhly> ... Do we simply want to transcribe the use cases, or do we want to filter them
16:45:30 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:45:56 <dwhly> ... based on some objective or subjective criteria
16:46:05 <dwhly> ... or just capture them all
16:46:13 <dwhly> shepazu: I favor capturing them all
16:46:17 <paoloC> +1
16:46:19 <rayd> capture
16:46:19 <Jacob> +1
16:46:22 <azaroth> +1
16:46:23 <fjh> +1 to doug on capturing first and then filtering, also provides a record of decision making
16:46:39 <dwhly> ... functionally what this group is working on will be useful for other things
16:46:43 <ivan> +1 to doug
16:46:53 <dwhly> ... robust anchoring <> findAPI
16:47:13 <dwhly> ... I think we should be looking at bits that serve our needs, but potentially others
16:47:21 <dwhly> ... I'll pick on rayd's use case
16:47:36 <dwhly> ... there's a set of books and a set of images... this image might work as the cover
16:47:47 <dwhly> ... that's not an annotation, it's a categorization
16:48:07 <rayd> q+
16:48:08 <dwhly> ... however, if we had that collected... we can figure it out later
16:48:37 <dwhly> ... and we can make sure it's handled on the platform overall, or take it to the DPWG, or to the CSSWG or to WAWG
16:48:53 <dwhly> ... so I think that collecting use cases is a useful exercise
16:49:10 <dwhly> ... and since we'll be alive for several years, we may come back to them
16:49:20 <dwhly> ... ramble ramble
16:49:27 <paoloC> q+
16:49:34 <azaroth> ack rayd
16:49:54 <dwhly> rayd: I just want to talk about the cover art... it is an annotation...
16:50:04 <dwhly> i'll write it up, and discuss there.
16:50:30 <dwhly> shepazu: take a fb post.  i'll often post and comment on it
16:50:39 <dwhly> ... but sometimes it's just a post
16:50:47 <dwhly> ... does that mean it's not an annotation?
16:51:01 <dwhly> ... we'll be able to reuse the annotation data model
16:51:18 <dwhly> ... as a unit of discussion even thought it doesn't have some parts
16:51:25 <dwhly> ... it's a blurry line
16:51:35 <azaroth> ack paoloC
16:51:36 <dwhly> ... people will use whatever we come up in ways we didn't expect
16:51:51 <bigbluehat> +1 to paoloC
16:51:51 <dwhly> PaoloC: collect everything first
16:52:02 <Jacob> I'd say that the comment is an annotation...
16:52:05 <dwhly> ... i feel annotations are more a fluid thing
16:52:27 <dwhly> ... it can be a transient object, that live in time, keep track of things forever, but have a temporal validity
16:52:30 <Jacob> ...but this gets into the murky area of discourse. Which annotations have been used for in the past.
16:52:42 <dwhly> ... so be careful in drawing a sharp line
16:52:43 <bigbluehat> q+
16:52:55 <dwhly> ... they'll be hard to enforce
16:52:59 <dwhly> shepazu: agree
16:53:07 <tbdinesh> +1 to paoloC : even the edit log (history of a page) in wikipedia can be a collection of annotations
16:53:24 <dwhly> PaoloC: lets collect everything.  lets have guidelines
16:53:31 <azaroth> ack bigbluehat
16:53:36 <dwhly> ... a lot of stuff falls in between
16:53:54 <dwhly> shepazu: lets look at the functional questions, where they meet a use case
16:54:15 <dwhly> bigbluehat: the question is what falls in a formal use case list
16:54:24 <dwhly> ... +1 to PaoloC
16:54:36 <dwhly> ... at some point we'll decide on the list
16:54:40 <azaroth> +1 to BBH
16:54:44 <dwhly> ... that we circulate to the world
16:54:52 <dwhly> ... and that list will get updated over time
16:54:53 <azaroth> q?
16:54:56 <fjh> +1
16:55:19 <dwhly> PaoloC: in terms of triggering more use cases?  Is there anything else we can do?
16:55:41 <dwhly> ... or just wait
16:55:44 <rayd> q+
16:55:53 <shepazu> q+
16:56:05 <dwhly> azaorth: my perspective... lets wait till after the holidays.
16:56:23 <dwhly> ... but H. and the annotation collaboration have good lists of previous systems
16:56:34 <dwhly> ... we could do an analysis of what features they support
16:56:40 <azaroth> ack rayd
16:56:41 <dwhly> ... that could drive use cases
16:57:00 <dwhly> rayd: i have four or five more use cases that I haven't contributed
16:57:05 <dwhly> ... but I'll do that.
16:57:06 <azaroth> ack shepazu
16:57:22 <dwhly> shepazu: it might be useful if we had a Use Case Czar
16:57:29 <dwhly> ... to pester the masses
16:57:40 <bigbluehat> shepazu: submit a use case, get a W3C sticker? :)
16:57:44 <dwhly> ... and usually there's an editor for a use case document
16:58:01 <dwhly> ... lets sit around the table, smoke cigars and brainstorm use cases
16:58:14 <tantek> tantek has joined #annotation
16:58:25 <dwhly> ... when people get together physically, more magic happens
16:58:47 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:58:49 <tbdinesh>  +1 on use case at f2f
16:58:51 <dwhly> ... lets think about an hour at the beginning of the next F2F lets do a use case ice-breaker
16:58:52 <azaroth> q?
16:59:13 <fjh> q+
16:59:16 <fjh> q-
16:59:25 <dwhly> azaroth: lets get together the first wednesday on the new year
16:59:39 <shepazu> +1
16:59:40 <azaroth> q?
16:59:43 <dwhly> ... does anyone have opinions
16:59:46 <Jacob> +1
17:00:07 <dwhly> fjh: if there's nothing substantive we shouldn't have a call
17:00:23 <dwhly> PaoloC: NO MEETING ON CHRISTMAS EVE?!?!?!
17:00:34 <dwhly> shepazu: I'lll be there!
17:00:51 <dwhly> azaroth: gives his benediction to us all.
17:00:56 <Zakim> -dinesh
17:01:01 <Zakim> -fjh
17:01:02 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:01:02 <Zakim> -PaoloC
17:01:02 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
17:01:04 <Zakim> -rayd
17:01:05 <Zakim> -davissalisbury
17:01:05 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
17:01:05 <bigbluehat> 🌲
17:01:06 <Zakim> -azaroth
17:01:06 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
17:01:07 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:01:07 <Zakim> -csillag
17:01:08 <azaroth> :)
17:01:10 <Kyrce> Kyrce has left #annotation
17:01:12 <Zakim> -bigbluehat
17:01:14 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:01:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/17-annotation-minutes.html ivan
17:01:16 <Zakim> -dwhly
17:01:17 <Zakim> DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM has ended
17:01:17 <Zakim> Attendees were azaroth, fjh, dauwhe, +1.202.707.aaaa, +1.617.768.aabb, Ivan, +1.434.971.aacc, PaoloC, rayd, dinesh, Bill_Kasdorf, davissalisbury, +1.845.665.aadd, Kyrce,
17:01:17 <Zakim> ... +1.650.274.aaee, dwhly, Doug_Schepers, [IPcaller], bjdmeest, csillag, +1.864.787.aagg, bigbluehat
17:02:22 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:02:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/17-annotation-minutes.html ivan
17:14:04 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:14:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:14:04 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:14:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:14:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/17-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
17:14:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:14:13 <RRSAgent> I see no action items