IRC log of social on 2014-12-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:58:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
17:58:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-irc
17:58:05 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:58:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #social
17:58:07 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:58:07 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
17:58:08 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:58:09 [trackbot]
Date: 16 December 2014
18:01:30 [Arnaud]
zakim, this is socl
18:01:30 [Zakim]
ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM
18:01:36 [eprodrom]
Zakim, who's on the call?
18:01:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jasnell, ??P1, +1.514.554.aaaa, Arnaud
18:01:44 [eprodrom]
Zakim, aaaa is me
18:01:44 [Zakim]
+eprodrom; got it
18:02:04 [cwebber2]
-q
18:02:14 [cwebber2]
Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:02:14 [Zakim]
+cwebber2; got it
18:02:16 [cwebber2]
-q
18:02:26 [Zakim]
+??P4
18:02:29 [cwebber2]
-q ??P1
18:03:18 [Zakim]
+Sandro
18:04:45 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:04:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jasnell, cwebber2, eprodrom, Arnaud, rhiaro (muted), Sandro
18:04:50 [Zakim]
+??P7
18:04:52 [tantek]
zakim, ??p7 is me
18:04:52 [Zakim]
+tantek; got it
18:05:01 [tantek]
zakim, mute me
18:05:01 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
18:05:14 [tantek]
zakim, unmute me
18:05:15 [Zakim]
tantek should no longer be muted
18:05:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.541.410.aabb
18:05:23 [jasnell]
everyone is winding down
18:05:33 [jasnell]
brain slowly shutting down for the end of the year
18:05:56 [jasnell]
+1 for skipping next week
18:06:27 [cwebber2]
+1 on skipping 2 weeks
18:06:31 [jasnell]
+1 for skipping two weeks
18:06:55 [tantek]
zakim, who is here?
18:06:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jasnell, cwebber2, eprodrom, Arnaud, rhiaro (muted), Sandro, tantek, +1.541.410.aabb
18:06:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, eprodrom, jasnell, tantek, jaywink, bblfish, shepazu, KevinMarks, wilkie, Morbus, Arnaud, pdurbin, cwebber2, JakeHart, mattl, hadleybeeman, bret, bigbluehat,
18:06:58 [Zakim]
... Loqi, nickstenn, oshepherd, rektide_, dwhly, kylewm, rhiaro, jaakko, Tsyesika, jessica_lily, aaronpk, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
18:07:12 [tantek]
who is calling from 541?
18:07:12 [Zakim]
+bblfish
18:07:23 [bblfish]
hi
18:07:27 [Zakim]
+??P10
18:07:32 [tantek]
who just joined?
18:07:36 [jessica_lily]
me
18:07:41 [jessica_lily]
Zakim, ??P10 is me
18:07:41 [Zakim]
+jessica_lily; got it
18:07:47 [jessica_lily]
Zakim, mute me
18:07:47 [Zakim]
jessica_lily should now be muted
18:08:09 [cwebber2]
I can scribe if nobody volunteers
18:08:24 [eprodrom]
Henry is presenting today
18:08:31 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:08:39 [eprodrom]
I scribed last week
18:08:41 [wilkie]
Zakim, IPcaller is me
18:08:41 [Zakim]
+wilkie; got it
18:08:44 [eprodrom]
But I can share in the job
18:08:52 [eprodrom]
scribenick eprodrom
18:09:04 [eprodrom]
TOPIC: Approval of last week's minutes
18:09:10 [jasnell]
no objection
18:09:14 [cwebber2]
no objections
18:09:29 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: minutes of Dec 9 approved
18:09:35 [eprodrom]
TOPIC: when should we meet next?
18:09:42 [eprodrom]
Next meeting is the 23rd
18:09:49 [eprodrom]
Today is low, next two weeks will be lower
18:09:58 [tantek]
+1 for 2015-01-06 for next meeting
18:10:00 [eprodrom]
PROPOSED: skip 2 weeks for holidays, next meeting Jan 6
18:10:01 [jasnell]
+1 to skipping two weeks
18:10:02 [eprodrom]
+1
18:10:05 [bblfish]
+1
18:10:06 [jessica_lily]
+1 for missing two weeks
18:10:07 [cwebber2]
+1 to skipping till jan 6
18:10:25 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: next telecon Jan 6 2015
18:10:29 [wilkie]
+1
18:10:44 [eprodrom]
TOPIC: schedule on the wiki
18:11:03 [Zakim]
- +1.541.410.aabb
18:11:11 [cwebber2]
I think having deadlines helps a lot
18:11:13 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik proposes removing dates from #sched section of socialwg wiki pages
18:11:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.541.410.aacc
18:11:20 [cwebber2]
even ones you fall behind on :)
18:11:23 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: we have a deadline
18:11:28 [eprodrom]
And we need to keep track of what's going on
18:11:31 [jessica_lily]
i think deadlines are useful providing they're realistic
18:11:46 [eprodrom]
q+
18:11:52 [tantek]
who just joined from 541?
18:11:55 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
18:13:13 [eprodrom]
eprodrom: Let's put small number of dates on the schedule
18:13:34 [eprodrom]
tantek: let's use the Tracker to keep dates and schedules
18:13:42 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
18:13:48 [wilkie]
that makes sense
18:14:24 [eprodrom]
q+
18:14:42 [tilgovi]
tilgovi has joined #social
18:15:10 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
18:15:33 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
18:16:43 [eprodrom]
sandro: we have a commitment to the dates on the charter and we need to update the charter if we don't make it
18:17:23 [ShaneHudson]
ShaneHudson has joined #social
18:17:42 [tantek]
note for the minutes, Milestones from the charter: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#id-other-deliverables
18:17:49 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: we are at risk for running out of runway
18:18:24 [ShaneHudson]
Hi all, I've got IRC open but won't be paying too much attention. We are having an issue with water in the lights in my house :( sorry!
18:18:34 [Loqi]
aww, cheer up
18:18:58 [eprodrom]
tantek: we've missed API and Federation Protocol goals already
18:19:04 [tantek]
for FPWD
18:19:12 [eprodrom]
tantek: and we need to review as a group
18:21:25 [eprodrom]
ACTION eprodrom update schedule to show only milestones for approval on Jan 6
18:21:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-23 - Update schedule to show only milestones for approval on jan 6 [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-12-23].
18:23:35 [eprodrom]
eprodrom: shoot for 3/15 for FPWD of Social API
18:23:40 [eprodrom]
tantek: probably too aggressive
18:23:54 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: editor's draft?
18:23:58 [jasnell]
we don't necessarily need agreement on approach before getting a first editor's draft proposal
18:24:11 [eprodrom]
q+
18:24:13 [Arnaud]
http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
18:24:18 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
18:24:33 [jasnell]
q+
18:25:36 [tantek]
zakim, mute me
18:25:36 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
18:26:47 [eprodrom]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/pump.io_API#HTTP_verb_stats
18:26:59 [elf-pavlik]
elf-pavlik has joined #social
18:27:22 [tantek]
evan is closing 3 actions as done 16, 17, 19
18:27:30 [tantek]
advertising action is still open
18:27:43 [tantek]
zakim, unmute me
18:27:43 [Zakim]
tantek should no longer be muted
18:28:21 [cwebber2]
tantek: it says "replaced by" 21 :)
18:28:23 [cwebber2]
http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/20
18:29:10 [eprodrom]
eprodrom: closed Action 16, 17, 19
18:29:22 [eprodrom]
Action 20: scheduling for F2F
18:29:23 [trackbot]
Error finding '20'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:29:36 [eprodrom]
Action 20 is about scheduling for F2F
18:29:36 [trackbot]
Error finding '20'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:29:49 [eprodrom]
Action 21 and 20 are closed
18:29:49 [trackbot]
Error finding '21'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.
18:30:05 [Arnaud]
ack jasnell
18:30:08 [tantek]
zakim, mute me
18:30:08 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
18:30:38 [Zakim]
-tantek
18:31:14 [eprodrom]
jasnell: leaving actions open for IBM connections API
18:31:25 [eprodrom]
cwebber2: can you fill in for me for a second?
18:31:43 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yup
18:31:46 [eprodrom]
Thanks
18:31:51 [eprodrom]
scribenick cwebber2
18:32:19 [cwebber2]
there has been work on the activitystreams spec, there is a vocab draft separated from the other draft
18:32:30 [cwebber2]
this is Arnaud, right?
18:32:34 [elf-pavlik]
s/scribenick /scribenick: /
18:33:06 [cwebber2]
there's suggestion maybe there's a requirement between where we draw line between where we explore vocab at large, where we need something we can all rely on
18:33:28 [cwebber2]
jasnell: it's pretty straightforward, vocab I've been working on is sum of a most common use cases I could identify
18:33:35 [cwebber2]
across wide set of implementations
18:33:58 [cwebber2]
I catalogued what are the most common difficulty / artifacts, went back to base schema in AS 1.0
18:34:01 [cwebber2]
reconciled with what we have now
18:34:14 [cwebber2]
quite a few additional classes, but all represent real world use cases
18:34:30 [cwebber2]
main issue I've seen is there are issues with basic structure but with the objects themselves
18:34:36 [cwebber2]
some use schema.org, some use something else
18:34:44 [cwebber2]
which mean these implementations don't interoperate
18:34:57 [cwebber2]
at the very least, the goal is to represent the most common concepts in a basic way
18:35:01 [cwebber2]
so we can implement basic interop
18:35:14 [cwebber2]
I advocate that we implement those basic terms as part of base vocabulary
18:35:25 [Zakim]
+??P7
18:35:28 [tantek]
zakim, ??p7 is me
18:35:28 [Zakim]
+tantek; got it
18:35:29 [jasnell]
jasnell has joined #social
18:35:31 [cwebber2]
later if IG wants to define some details, this provides some basic interop
18:35:37 [cwebber2]
that's where we're at now
18:35:41 [eprodrom]
+q
18:35:46 [cwebber2]
is this a WG item or a IG item
18:35:47 [Arnaud]
ack jasnell
18:35:50 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
18:36:04 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: yeah, so my basic feeling is this really is part of the working group
18:36:07 [tantek]
q+ to say vocab interop is WG item, per charter
18:36:28 [cwebber2]
our charter is to create a syntax for social data and I think that the social network info that jasnell has put together is what we need for interop at this level
18:36:44 [cwebber2]
if we have 5 different definitions of types for a person or a note or different verbs for following/friendly
18:36:46 [cwebber2]
friending
18:36:51 [cwebber2]
I don't think that can be called interop
18:37:04 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:37:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jasnell, cwebber2, eprodrom, Arnaud, rhiaro (muted), Sandro, bblfish, jessica_lily (muted), wilkie, +1.541.410.aacc, Doug_Schepers, tantek
18:37:06 [cwebber2]
what jasnell has done so far is set a solid base for those of us who need to do social data to get started
18:37:16 [Arnaud]
ack tantek
18:37:16 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to say vocab interop is WG item, per charter
18:37:23 [cwebber2]
but I have hesitancy to go out the door without some agreed upon vocab
18:37:40 [cwebber2]
tantek: I agree with eprodrom, WG needs to agree on interop
18:37:53 [cwebber2]
it's something implementers who have a strong say in, rather than the interest group
18:38:01 [cwebber2]
so +1 for keeping that
18:38:22 [cwebber2]
key is to scope so we can meet succuess: what is minimum subset do we need to meet interop?
18:38:49 [cwebber2]
calling out minimum subset because looking at some vocabs seem to have terms and prhases that look like people were making them up
18:38:55 [cwebber2]
we need to do some implementer getting heads together
18:39:07 [jasnell]
tantek: which has terms that look "made up" to you? that wasn't clear
18:39:10 [cwebber2]
what is the minimum interop so that we can do this
18:39:16 [cwebber2]
and other stuff can be dropped
18:39:35 [cwebber2]
Arnaud: harry is not on call, so I wonder what he would say
18:39:43 [cwebber2]
we will have to make this decision
18:39:47 [cwebber2]
should we do a formal proposal?
18:39:51 [cwebber2]
I seem to hear agreement
18:39:56 [jasnell]
+1 on having a proposal
18:40:04 [cwebber2]
tantek: if there's agreement, we shoud do proposal, see if there are objections
18:40:11 [eprodrom]
scribenick eprodrom
18:40:15 [cwebber2]
Arnaud: proposal is to keep working, continue jasnell's efforts
18:40:21 [cwebber2]
go for it eprodrom
18:40:34 [tantek]
jasnell - *most terms* e.g. most of schema is totally made-up and no-one uses (including Google)
18:40:41 [eprodrom]
PROPOSAL: Continue jasnell's effort to do an extended vocabulary for Activity Streams focused on social data
18:40:59 [jasnell]
+1
18:40:59 [eprodrom]
+1
18:41:05 [wilkie]
+1
18:41:07 [cwebber2]
+1
18:41:08 [elf-pavlik]
0
18:41:16 [jessica_lily]
+1
18:41:47 [eprodrom]
jasnell: there are use cases in the wiki, which are what drives the extended vocabulary
18:41:52 [tantek]
+1 caveat subsetted for vocab terms that are each *essential* for specific documented use-cases.
18:42:15 [eprodrom]
jasnell: if there are parts of the vocabulary that don't depend on it, we can remove
18:42:24 [eprodrom]
tantek: we should link every term to a use case
18:42:38 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: there are steps in the process that make sure what is in the spec is justified
18:43:18 [eprodrom]
RESOLVED: Continue jasnell's effort to do an extended vocabulary for Activity Streams focused on social data
18:43:26 [eprodrom]
TOPIC: Linked Data Platform API
18:43:32 [sandro]
Let's start tghe Imeplemtnation Report *now*
18:43:35 [bblfish]
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/LDP
18:43:42 [eprodrom]
bblfish will give us a preview
18:44:28 [jeff]
jeff has joined #social
18:44:29 [eprodrom]
page shows links between resources
18:44:40 [tantek]
s/URL/URLs
18:44:43 [eprodrom]
On reaching a resource, must know what he can do with the resource
18:45:11 [eprodrom]
bblfish: there are namespacing and URL requireements, e.g. TOR
18:45:25 [eprodrom]
bblfish: LDP is a simplification and generalization of Atom
18:45:41 [eprodrom]
No requirements on format e.g. XML
18:45:51 [eprodrom]
Turtle as a default, JSON-LD as a requirement
18:45:58 [eprodrom]
Reading a resource is extremely simple
18:46:31 [tantek]
zakim, mute me
18:46:31 [Zakim]
tantek should now be muted
18:47:00 [eprodrom]
JSON-LD results come back if you request it
18:47:14 [eprodrom]
What relations would we want on a LDP seed?
18:47:17 [eprodrom]
q+
18:47:37 [eprodrom]
Can create binary and data resources, POST on container
18:47:49 [eprodrom]
Some containers require binding
18:47:54 [eprodrom]
Basic container does not do that
18:48:11 [eprodrom]
Authentication not included
18:48:15 [eprodrom]
LDP Next does include it
18:48:19 [eprodrom]
Cert or other authentication
18:48:38 [eprodrom]
Binary resources can be posted
18:49:56 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: please wait until the end of the discussion for questions
18:49:59 [eprodrom]
eprodrom: oops
18:50:09 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: "binary" resources can be RDF or not
18:50:30 [eprodrom]
bblfish: DELETE is accepted
18:50:36 [eprodrom]
bblfish: PUT is also accepted
18:50:43 [Arnaud]
s/RDF or not/binary or anything else/
18:51:14 [eprodrom]
PATCH is possible but no defined format
18:51:22 [eprodrom]
LDP WG is working on a simpler format
18:52:11 [eprodrom]
bblfish: spec also included conditional updates, ETags, etc.
18:52:22 [eprodrom]
bblfish: LDP Next is next steps
18:52:28 [eprodrom]
bblfish: including access control
18:53:05 [eprodrom]
bblfish: potential for queries
18:53:20 [eprodrom]
bblfish: may use query verb
18:53:45 [eprodrom]
bblfish: can invent protocols described by the relations
18:53:52 [eprodrom]
bblfish: how to send a friend request?
18:53:58 [eprodrom]
bblfish: no email or ask for change to file
18:54:04 [sandro]
q+ to explain LDP maturity and next
18:54:04 [eprodrom]
bblfish: ping-to relationship
18:54:19 [eprodrom]
bblfish: can add new things to the container
18:54:30 [eprodrom]
bblfish: in LDP-Next there's a notion of data shapes
18:54:41 [eprodrom]
bblfish: restrict the types of shapes in containers
18:54:51 [eprodrom]
bblfish: peer-to-peer protocol
18:55:04 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: status of LDP
18:55:11 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: is now proposed recommendation
18:55:40 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: much discussion on what to do next
18:55:51 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: working group has decided to ask for an extension of the existing charter
18:56:02 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: not to finish but to give everyone time to experiment with what already exists
18:56:15 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
18:56:15 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to explain LDP maturity and next
18:56:35 [cwebber2]
bblfish: does LDP specify much as in terms of side effects from incoming data?
18:56:37 [eprodrom]
sandro: march or april workshop to discuss next version of LDP
18:56:49 [tantek]
q+ to ask what types of social content are people (e.g. presenters) posting on their websites using LDP? notes? articles? events?
18:56:58 [bblfish]
so in some sense this Social Web WG would be able to help define what LDP needs next
18:56:59 [eprodrom]
sandro: has been working on update controls
18:57:04 [cwebber2]
or is the protocol more of a distributed database, which is side-effect agnostic?
18:57:05 [eprodrom]
sandro: need real-time updates
18:57:33 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
18:57:41 [bblfish]
9 implementations of LDP https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ldpwg/raw-file/default/tests/reports/ldp.html
18:57:54 [tantek]
bblfish - are they well deployed?
18:58:17 [Arnaud]
ack tantek
18:58:18 [Zakim]
tantek, you wanted to ask what types of social content are people (e.g. presenters) posting on their websites using LDP? notes? articles? events?
18:58:21 [bblfish]
well if some folks here join, they could be very well deployed :-)
18:58:21 [eprodrom]
eprodrom: seems like common patterns
18:58:32 [eprodrom]
tantek: what types of content are currently being posted using LDP?
18:58:43 [eprodrom]
tantek: are there activity streams types currently being used?
18:59:08 [eprodrom]
bblfish: building a blogging engine
18:59:13 [eprodrom]
bblfish: mostly FOAF
18:59:24 [eprodrom]
http://www.foaf-project.org/
18:59:44 [eprodrom]
bblfish: also AS, images, videos
18:59:46 [jasnell]
for my personal blog implementation, I'm starting to use LDP. Using Article, Note, Person, Image, Mention, Post, Respond, Like, Dislike so far
18:59:48 [sandro]
q+
19:00:21 [eprodrom]
jasnell: that's interesting!
19:00:36 [eprodrom]
tantek: other examples have real implementations
19:00:44 [eprodrom]
tantek: people are posting on their own sites today
19:01:00 [jasnell]
hoping to have the implementation ready by the face to face, as well as hopefully be able to switch my personal blog over to self-hosted by then
19:01:02 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
19:01:08 [jasnell]
will depend on how much time I have to implement it
19:01:18 [eprodrom]
sandro: just starting to be implemented
19:01:27 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: out of time
19:01:33 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: thanks bblfish for presentation
19:01:39 [eprodrom]
ditto! Thanks, bblfish!
19:01:58 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: thanks all for joining!
19:02:01 [bblfish]
thanks !
19:02:03 [Lloyd_Fassett]
Lloyd_Fassett has joined #social
19:02:04 [Zakim]
-jasnell
19:02:05 [cwebber2]
wooo \o/
19:02:08 [wilkie]
thanks!
19:02:10 [cwebber2]
happy holidaze
19:02:10 [eprodrom]
Thanks Arnaud !
19:02:11 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
19:02:12 [wilkie]
thanks bblfish
19:02:15 [Zakim]
-cwebber2
19:02:16 [Zakim]
-Sandro
19:02:17 [eprodrom]
Enjoy your holidays folks
19:02:17 [Zakim]
-bblfish
19:02:18 [Zakim]
-Arnaud
19:02:20 [Zakim]
-tantek
19:02:20 [jessica_lily]
happy holidays!
19:02:20 [cwebber2]
and thx for scribing eva
19:02:20 [eprodrom]
Good times to hack!
19:02:23 [cwebber2]
eprodrom:
19:02:25 [Zakim]
-eprodrom
19:02:26 [Zakim]
-jessica_lily
19:02:26 [Zakim]
-rhiaro
19:02:29 [eprodrom]
cwebber2: thanks for covering me
19:02:29 [Zakim]
- +1.541.410.aacc
19:02:45 [cwebber2]
np
19:02:47 [tantek]
thanks everyone.
19:02:54 [Zakim]
-wilkie
19:02:55 [Zakim]
T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended
19:02:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were jasnell, Arnaud, +1.514.554.aaaa, eprodrom, cwebber2, rhiaro, Sandro, tantek, +1.541.410.aabb, bblfish, jessica_lily, wilkie, +1.541.410.aacc, Doug_Schepers
19:03:05 [elf-pavlik]
elf-pavlik has changed the topic to: Social Web WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-01-06 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today
19:03:12 [tantek]
btw for those in the bay area - the last Homebrew Website Club meetup is tomorrow night @MozSF: https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-17-homebrew-website-club
19:07:07 [Arnaud]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
19:07:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-minutes.html Arnaud
19:07:13 [Arnaud]
trackbot, end meeting
19:07:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
19:07:13 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
19:07:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:07:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-minutes.html trackbot
19:07:22 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
19:07:22 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-actions.rdf :
19:07:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: 20 to scheduling for F2F [1]
19:07:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/16-social-irc#T18-29-22