IRC log of ua on 2014-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:03:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
18:03:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-irc
18:03:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:03:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
18:03:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
18:03:51 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
18:03:52 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
18:03:52 [trackbot]
Date: 11 December 2014
18:04:33 [Jan]
zakim, who's here?
18:04:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Kim_Patch, Eric, Jeanne, [IPcaller]
18:04:35 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Jan, jeanne, MichaelC, trackbot
18:04:40 [jeanne]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0069.html
18:04:47 [jeanne]
agenda?
18:05:17 [jeanne]
Agenda+ comments - Finish MS
18:05:17 [jeanne]
Agenda+ Mobile Accessibility Taskforce
18:05:32 [jeanne]
agenda+ MS01
18:05:40 [jeanne]
agenda+ MS03
18:05:50 [jeanne]
agenda+ SB03
18:06:00 [jeanne]
Agenda+ Action items 1037 - 1053
18:06:26 [jeanne]
agenda+ Kelly's resignation
18:06:33 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 7
18:06:33 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Kelly's resignation" taken up [from jeanne]
18:06:53 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0072.html
18:07:06 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has left #ua
18:08:04 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:08:34 [allanj]
allanj has joined #ua
18:08:51 [Eric_Hansen]
Eric_Hansen has joined #ua
18:08:59 [allanj]
rrsagent, set logs public
18:09:17 [allanj]
agenda?
18:12:42 [Kim]
Kim has joined #ua
18:12:44 [jeanne]
agenda+ new Text Customization comments
18:13:03 [allanj]
scribe: allanj
18:13:13 [allanj]
open item 2
18:13:43 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/User_Agent_Capabilities
18:13:45 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Platform_Capabilities
18:13:46 [Kim]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Note:_WCAG_2.0_and_Mobile
18:15:09 [allanj]
kp: Platform Capabilities feeds into the Note. Platform is background
18:15:32 [allanj]
kp: trying to get everyone on the same page about mobile
18:15:49 [allanj]
... need help filling out UA capabiliites
18:16:09 [allanj]
... what are topic needed?
18:17:31 [allanj]
ja: APIs (accessibility, keyboard, etc.)
18:18:05 [allanj]
ja: user setting separate from platform settings
18:18:59 [allanj]
kp: speech input...where does it live. On the platform, or separate application
18:19:27 [allanj]
... gap in command and control (CNC) on the platform.
18:19:56 [allanj]
... if CNC was in UA would be better, if speech followed keyboard.
18:22:33 [allanj]
ja: plugins for extra capabilities for the UA
18:23:22 [allanj]
kp: how does wcag, uaag, and mobile all come together
18:23:51 [allanj]
jr: no real platform accessibility requirements (touch system)
18:23:55 [jeanne]
q+ we need to include user stylesheets, although that is browser platform, not OS platform, but could include both
18:25:07 [allanj]
eh: what is the overlap between UAAG and WCAG
18:25:35 [allanj]
jr: good topic. all about end user experience.
18:26:32 [allanj]
ja: you test WCAG in the browser
18:27:18 [allanj]
eh: UAAG has stuff for repair,
18:27:27 [allanj]
jr: more limited now.
18:28:26 [allanj]
js: user style sheet in the platform and UA
18:28:30 [jeanne]
ack jean
18:29:56 [allanj]
eh: browser as platform
18:30:20 [allanj]
jr: user css is in the UA not the platform
18:31:03 [allanj]
agenda?
18:31:14 [allanj]
close item 2
18:32:29 [allanj]
topic: MS01 - web-based UA Action-1057 -Jan
18:33:15 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0068.html
18:33:25 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0073.html
18:33:33 [allanj]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0074.html
18:38:09 [allanj]
eh: simple def. in glossary, with lots of extra information about specific cases in some other part of doc (perhaps conformance)
18:38:46 [allanj]
... a lot of the info is useful but non-normative.
18:39:23 [allanj]
jr: important to keep "Note: Many web applications retrieve, render and facilitate interaction with very limited data sets (e.g. online ticket booking). In such cases, WCAG 2.0, without UAAG 2.0, may be appropriate for assessing the application's accessibility."
18:41:01 [allanj]
jr: UA should apply to browsers only. Need the NOTE to limit the scope of the definition.
18:42:03 [allanj]
... perhaps a link in the def to the expanded information
18:42:34 [jeanne]
That reminds me, we also need to move the Conformance note that says that if the platform doesn't allow it, it doesn't apply. That needs to be in the Applicability Notes so it is easier to find.
18:42:37 [allanj]
eh: perhaps in the applicability notes.
18:43:41 [allanj]
eh: if it is essential then put in conformance section. otherwise elsewhere.
18:45:02 [allanj]
proposal: use Native to replace non-web-based browser.
18:45:05 [Jan]
Action JR: Propose a shift of much of the explanatory material from user agent defn to a note in the conformance area
18:45:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1060 - Propose a shift of much of the explanatory material from user agent defn to a note in the conformance area [on Jan Richards - due 2014-12-18].
18:45:51 [allanj]
RESOLUTION: use Native to replace non-web-based browser.
18:46:10 [allanj]
close action-1057
18:46:10 [trackbot]
Closed action-1057.
18:46:57 [allanj]
topic: MS03 - 1.4.1 text format separation OS/AT Action-1059 - Jim
18:48:57 [allanj]
topic: 4.1 sanity check
18:51:17 [allanj]
jr: 4.1.2 selection and focus are state.
18:51:52 [allanj]
jr: if the UA supports an accessibility API (4.1.1) then the references are the PF document.
18:52:07 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update UAAG to change the term "non-web-based" to "native"
18:52:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1061 - Update uaag to change the term "non-web-based" to "native" [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-12-18].
18:52:17 [allanj]
ja: 4.1.2 is the UA version of a WCAG SC
18:54:25 [allanj]
jr: does UAAG need stay heavy on the API stuff (a strength of PF), or focus on user interface
18:55:05 [allanj]
jr: keep 4.1.1, 4.1.4 and remove the others.
18:56:15 [allanj]
jr: the others in 4.1 will be difficult to test.
18:56:25 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.1/
18:58:18 [allanj]
s/WCAG SC/WCAG SC 4.1.2
18:58:41 [allanj]
jr: want to finish, keep it simple.
18:59:10 [allanj]
jr: need to wait for GL input
19:00:24 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#gl_a12
19:00:40 [Jan]
A.1.2.2 Platform Accessibility Services:
19:00:41 [Jan]
If the authoring tool contains non-web-based user interfaces, then those non-web-based user interfaces expose accessibility information through platform accessibility services. (Level A)
19:00:43 [Jan]
Note: The (optional) explanation of conformance claim results should record the platform accessibility service(s) that were implemented.
19:01:49 [allanj]
agenda+ 4.1 proposal to keep 4.1.1 and 4.1.4 .... remove others, perhaps use ATAG A.1.2.2
19:02:40 [allanj]
action: jeanne to move the Conformance note that says that if the platform doesn't allow it, it doesn't apply. That needs to be in the Applicability Notes so it is easier to find.
19:02:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1062 - move the conformance note that says that if the platform doesn't allow it, it doesn't apply. that needs to be in the applicability notes so it is easier to find. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-12-18].
19:04:34 [allanj]
eh: Applicability Notes and relationship to Conformance. some statement needed
19:04:58 [allanj]
... what do we want to call attention to
19:05:41 [allanj]
topic: SB03 - 1.8.11 Allow Top-Level Viewport Focus Control
19:06:16 [allanj]
comment: Regarding SB03 (1.8.11 Allow Top-Level Viewport Open on Request), I believe the problem I mentioned is caused by scripts intercepting the "mousedown" or "mouseup" event (rather than the "click" event), and therefore intercepting middle-clicks and (unintentionally?) causing these to perform some action on the page instead of opening the link in a new window. One solution might be to...
19:06:18 [allanj]
...allow the user to specify which mouse buttons are allowed to generate Javascript events. For example, if the user says "do not allow any mouse buttons to generate Javascript events" then no click or mousedown / mouseup events are generated and clicks always perform the default browser behaviour; if the user says "allow only the left mouse button to generate Javascript events" then the...
19:06:19 [allanj]
...other buttons will not; if the user says "allow left and right but not middle" then pages can override context menus but cannot override whatever the middle button is bound to (e.g. "open in new tab"). I'm not sure how exactly these options should be described to the user, or where to put them (probably in an "advanced" section somewhere), but being able to tell the browser not to...
19:06:21 [allanj]
...generate JS events when I middle-click would stop a lot of annoying sites from overriding this "open link in new tab" shortcut. (Yes, there will be times when the site is so script-driven that "open in new tab" can't work anyway, but in these cases the user would find out soon enough; I find in most cases "open in new tab" certainly CAN work - and DOES work when you bring up the context...
19:06:22 [allanj]
...menu and select it from that - but the site simply prevents middle-click from doing that job.)
19:06:26 [jeanne]
Conformance 8.Platform Limitations: If the platform (hardware or operating system) does not support a capability necessary for a given UAAG 2.0 success criterion, list the success criterion and the feature (e.g. a mobile operating system does not support platform accessibility services, therefore the user agent cannot meet success criterion 4.1.2). For these listed features, the user agent can
19:06:26 [jeanne]
claim that the success criteria do not apply (see 9.b.1 following). This should move to Applicability Notes
19:06:38 [allanj]
http://jspellman.github.io/UAAG-LC-Comment/
19:07:57 [Eric_Hansen]
Sorry need to drop off now.
19:08:13 [Zakim]
-Eric
19:08:31 [allanj]
ja: doesn't seem to apply.
19:08:44 [allanj]
js: too device specific...middle mouse button.
19:10:05 [allanj]
RESOLUTION: Not Accepted - UAWG is unconcerned with how the new window opens, this SC is only concerned about IF the new window captures focus.
19:10:29 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update the comment for SB03 to say that middle-button-click is too technology specific and see resolution for the rest of the comment response.
19:10:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1063 - Update the comment for sb03 to say that middle-button-click is too technology specific and see resolution for the rest of the comment response. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-12-18].
19:15:52 [allanj]
topic: ms01 web-based UA
19:16:40 [allanj]
jr: craft definition for epub, media player, etc. eliminate mobile apps, etc
19:17:12 [allanj]
Topic:MS03 1.4.1 text formatting
19:17:27 [allanj]
comment: MS03: Separation between browsers and OS We still believe that 1.4.1 should be separated into a level A criterion to pick up the OS settings where they exist, and level AA or level AAA criterion to go beyond the settings available on the platform.
19:18:08 [allanj]
ja: the UAs already do 1.4.1
19:18:29 [allanj]
for reference: 1.4.1 Basic text formatting (Globally): The user can globally set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content: (Level A)
19:18:30 [allanj]
* Text scale with preserved size distinctions (e.g. keeping headings proportional to main font)
19:18:32 [allanj]
* Text color and background color, choosing from all platform color options
19:18:33 [allanj]
* Font family, choosing from all installed fonts
19:18:35 [allanj]
* Line spacing, choosing from a range with at least three values
19:19:31 [allanj]
jr: we say this is what the UA should do for text. MS says Level A should be OS level stuff.
19:21:57 [allanj]
jr: UAs don't always respect OS text settings
19:24:43 [allanj]
ja: after thinking, not sure any UA meets the comment requirements
19:24:59 [allanj]
jr: we are concerned about getting implementations.
19:26:27 [allanj]
jr: in the intent, make it clear the inheriting OS setting could help meet 1.4.1
19:27:24 [allanj]
agenda?
19:27:38 [allanj]
close item 5
19:28:11 [allanj]
close item 7
19:28:29 [Zakim]
-Kim_Patch
19:28:32 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
19:28:32 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:28:34 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:28:35 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:28:35 [Zakim]
Attendees were Kim_Patch, Eric, Jeanne, [IPcaller], Jim_Allan
19:28:45 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:28:55 [allanj]
zakim, please part
19:28:55 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:29:12 [allanj]
Chair: Jim Allan
19:29:34 [allanj]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:29:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-minutes.html allanj
19:29:50 [allanj]
rrsagent, please part
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-actions.rdf :
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Propose a shift of much of the explanatory material from user agent defn to a note in the conformance area [1]
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-irc#T18-45-05
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update UAAG to change the term "non-web-based" to "native" [2]
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-irc#T18-52-07
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to move the Conformance note that says that if the platform doesn't allow it, it doesn't apply. That needs to be in the Applicability Notes so it is easier to find. [3]
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-irc#T19-02-40
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to update the comment for SB03 to say that middle-button-click is too technology specific and see resolution for the rest of the comment response. [4]
19:29:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/11-ua-irc#T19-10-29