17:59:52 RRSAgent has joined #social 17:59:52 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-social-irc 17:59:54 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:59:55 Zakim: who is on the call? 17:59:56 Zakim, this will be SOCL 17:59:56 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute 17:59:57 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 17:59:57 Date: 09 December 2014 17:59:58 eprodrom: yes and we decided I don't do email 17:59:59 and that's ok 18:00:26 tantek: oh, that was right 18:00:33 I was going to post the agenda on your weeks 18:00:37 right 18:00:42 so I am supposed to chair tody 18:00:44 zakim, this is SOCL 18:00:44 ok, Arnaud; that matches T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM 18:00:46 Good with me 18:00:47 s/tody/today 18:00:53 if it's good with Arnaud 18:00:54 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:00:55 On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, ??P4, ??P7, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett_, ??P8 18:01:00 and any further email discussion are not relevant 18:01:20 q? 18:01:24 +??P10 18:01:25 q - 18:01:26 zakim, ??P10 is me 18:01:26 +tantek; got it 18:01:28 q- 18:01:34 q- ??P8 18:02:04 how do i associate nickname? 18:02:15 I'm probably one 18:02:21 I'm just listening in for this one though 18:02:25 zakim, ??P7 is mattl 18:02:25 +mattl; got it 18:02:31 q? 18:02:31 mattl like that ^^^ 18:02:37 queue= 18:02:39 I think jessica_lily can handle the mediagoblin and pump api stuff if it comes up :) 18:02:52 tantek: aha. i am also just listening in really. 18:03:02 21# or 18:03:02 Yes it's be great to have her speak up 18:03:05 41# 18:03:08 41 ok 18:03:14 that's me 18:03:19 zakim, ??p4 is cwebber2 18:03:19 +cwebber2; got it 18:03:23 zakim, who is here? 18:03:23 On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, cwebber2, mattl, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett_, elf-pavlik, tantek 18:03:24 thx 18:03:26 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Lloyd_Fassett, Arnaud, Zakim, tantek, eprodrom, jaywink_, elf-pavlik, the_frey_, jaywink, cwebber2, JakeHart, mattl, hadleybeeman, bret, bigbluehat, shepazu, 18:03:26 ... Morbus, Loqi, zz_nickstenn, oshepherd, rektide_, dwhly, kylewm, rhiaro, jaakko, wilkie, Tsyesika, jessica_lily, aaronpk, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer_transit 18:03:29 yikes that is loud 18:03:39 AGENDA: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-12-09 18:03:44 Zakim, mute me 18:03:44 mattl should now be muted 18:03:56 +??P11 18:03:58 Arnaud: per our discussion last time 18:04:04 Zakim, ??P11 is me 18:04:04 +jessica_lily; got it 18:04:10 Zakim, mute me 18:04:10 jessica_lily should now be muted 18:04:13 I'm going to post the agenda for the weeks that Tantek is chairing 18:04:26 It was my mistake Arnaud 18:04:40 scribe? 18:04:56 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:04:56 On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, cwebber2, mattl (muted), Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett_, elf-pavlik (muted), tantek, jessica_lily (muted) 18:05:08 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose aaronpk 18:05:15 Zakim, pick a victim 18:05:15 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose cwebber2 18:05:21 I can't do this week 18:05:32 Zakim, pick a victim 18:05:33 I'm helping a client whose server just went down 18:05:33 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose evanpro 18:05:38 and I scribed recently 18:05:55 sorry, I'm normally happy to 18:06:03 Zakim, pick a victim 18:06:03 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose jessica_lily (muted) 18:06:20 +??P13 18:06:32 scribenick eprodrom 18:06:34 Zakim, ??P13 is me 18:06:34 +bret; got it 18:06:40 Zakim, mute me 18:06:40 bret should now be muted 18:06:41 Good here 18:06:43 propose evanpro scribe til pump.io discussion then aaronpk 18:06:44 should I do the "scribenick" thing when I switch? 18:06:54 scribenick: eprodrom 18:06:59 hey all 18:07:01 scribenick evanpro 18:07:07 Approval of minutes from last week 18:07:09 yes 18:07:09 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-12-02-minutes 18:07:17 tantek: any objections? 18:07:29 RESOLVED: Minutes from 2014-12-02 approved 18:07:45 Next week's teleconference is the 16th 18:07:51 Arnaud LeHors to chair 18:08:00 Discussion of F2F 18:08:13 tantek: mid-march is best time on Doodle 18:08:28 Arnaud: Two sets of dates were acceptable by majority 18:08:33 elf-pavlik: thanks 18:08:41 TOPIC: F2F meetings 18:08:55 Arnaud: schedule meeting on 17th and 18th and hacktime on 19th 18:09:18 tantek: also hacking session beforehand 18:09:38 Arnaud: I have a slight preference for Tuesday 18:09:52 q+ 18:10:21 sandro: any hosting prefs between 17&18 vs. 18&19? 18:10:22 tantek: do we still have these hours available in Cambridge? 18:10:30 AdamB has joined #social 18:11:10 PROPOSED: 17th and 18th March in Cambridge for F2F 18:11:16 +1 18:11:20 +1 18:11:25 +1 18:11:31 +1 18:11:41 elf-pavlik: I'm muted 18:11:51 +AdamB 18:11:53 ACTION sandro set up hosting for F2F 17 & 18 March 2015 18:11:54 Created ACTION-20 - Set up hosting for f2f 17 & 18 march 2015 [on Sandro Hawke - due 2014-12-16]. 18:12:25 +Doug_Schepers 18:12:40 ACTION tantek contact Sandro to enforce ACTION-20 18:12:40 Created ACTION-21 - Contact sandro to enforce action-20 [on Tantek Çelik - due 2014-12-16]. 18:13:19 on not assigning others, seeAlso: https://n-1.cc/discussion/view/73892/free-will-libre-albedrio-aware-software 18:13:22 tantek: Any other questions for F2F? 18:13:35 tantek: perhaps someone can suggest good places for St. Patrick's day that night 18:13:41 AGENDA: open actions http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open 18:13:42 TOPIC: Open actions and issues 18:14:01 Zakim, who is here? 18:14:01 On the phone I see evanpro, aaronpk, cwebber2, mattl (muted), Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett_, elf-pavlik (muted), tantek, jessica_lily (muted), bret (muted), AdamB, Doug_Schepers 18:14:04 On IRC I see AdamB, RRSAgent, Lloyd_Fassett, Arnaud, Zakim, tantek, evanpro, jaywink_, elf-pavlik, the_frey_, jaywink, cwebber2, JakeHart, mattl, hadleybeeman, bret, bigbluehat, 18:14:04 ... shepazu, Morbus, Loqi, zz_nickstenn, oshepherd, rektide_, dwhly, kylewm, rhiaro, jaakko, wilkie, Tsyesika, jessica_lily, aaronpk, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer_transit 18:14:25 james not here, he sent regrets 18:14:29 i added them to wiki 18:14:39 elf-pavlik: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/11 18:15:03 go ahead elf-pavlik 18:15:15 did the line go quiet? 18:15:19 yes 18:15:36 i didn't have time to tidy up my facebook review, by next week will do that! 18:15:42 ok thank you elf-pavlik 18:16:03 scribenick aaronpk 18:16:11 evanpro: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/16 18:16:28 evanpro: these are wiki editing actions i've been putting off, so will take care of these after the call 18:16:34 ...mostly getting links onto pages on the wiki 18:17:03 ShaneHudson has joined #social 18:17:04 TOPIC: Activity Streams 2.0 18:17:26 elf-pavlik: agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Dec/0037.html 18:17:39 elf-pavlik: if you're speaking, i can't hear you. 18:17:39 i think sound doesn't work for me, just participated in Credentials CG call and it worked just fine 18:17:52 elf-pavlik: can you try reconnecting? 18:17:55 i'll try to reconnect 18:18:01 q+ 18:18:06 -elf-pavlik 18:18:24 evanpro: question on the email list about "mentions" 18:18:30 +??P8 18:18:34 ... when you mention another person in text 18:18:51 ... kind of related to tagging someone in a photo, but is embedding someone's name or nickname into a photo or text 18:19:08 ... was a proposal specifying microsyntax or html for text for some relations 18:19:34 ... elf brought up a proposal to depend on strucured data in the activity streams, instead of embedding data in the plain text of the content 18:20:03 ... the proposal right now is essentially to not do anything extra for AS2.0 right now 18:20:28 -mattl 18:20:32 ok for ACTION 18:20:32 tantek: propose elf write up his proposal ont he wiki for how a mention should be handled 18:20:54 i ask over list to help me with reworkding it 18:21:01 i ask over list to help me with rewording it 18:21:34 tantek, i'll take that action! 18:21:42 ACTION elf-pavlik create wiki page for mentions and proposal 18:21:43 Created ACTION-22 - Create wiki page for mentions and proposal [on Pavlik elf - due 2014-12-16]. 18:22:15 sorry everyone, i just participated 2h ago in Credentials CG and my voice worked just fine, but they use independent VoIP setup... 18:22:29 TOPIC: social API 18:22:37 scribenick evanpro 18:22:38 tantek: any other issues on Activity Streams 2.0? 18:22:50 aaronpk to discussion Micropub 18:22:53 richlitt has joined #social 18:22:56 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Micropub 18:23:16 aaronpk: just a quick summary of micropub 18:23:38 used to create publications on your own domain name using any number of clients 18:23:49 authentication using indieauth 18:23:57 Generates an OAuth 2.0 token 18:24:22 On own web site, link-rel to endpoint for micropub 18:24:32 RPC-style, not REST-style 18:24:37 All requests made to single endpoint 18:24:51 requests are form-encoded, POST requests 18:25:14 micropub requests are mirrors of microformats requests 18:25:21 basic one is h-entry 18:25:26 for example a comment 18:25:33 h=entry (type of post) 18:25:39 content=blah 18:25:56 Other information generated automatically by the web site 18:26:14 If there are other fields to specify, include them as post parameters and send them as part of the request as well 18:26:20 e.g. specifying tags 18:26:35 reposts and likes 18:26:38 As well as reposts 18:26:53 There are examples of using this for all these types 18:27:16 Requests are extremely small, just enough info to get the service to create the data 18:27:22 8 different client implementations 18:27:31 At least 6 different server implementations 18:27:43 q+ 18:27:48 q- 18:27:54 People are using own and others' clients 18:27:58 Several programming languages 18:28:16 Next step is figuring out full CRUD flow 18:28:20 There are some first steps for this 18:28:21 (what do you mean by "client" here? website scripts, or browsers?) 18:28:41 Some discussion happening on indiewebcamp wiki 18:28:44 mechanic has joined #social 18:28:51 a client means anything that can make a post request 18:29:01 example, think of an OAuth 2.0 client 18:29:02 client can be a browser or a website serverside script 18:29:16 Can be a browser or a native app 18:29:26 q+ 18:29:39 aaronpk: has a micropub pebble app 18:30:29 shepazu: do you mean that people have implemented this on their website? 18:30:37 quill.p3k.io is a client app 18:30:44 Also iPhone apps 18:30:47 q+ 18:31:04 There are also libraries to create clients 18:31:17 q+ re: how to add entry to target collection? eg. friend to friendslist or wish to wishlist 18:31:44 zakim, who is making noise? 18:31:44 q- ??P4 18:31:49 sorry 18:31:55 tantek, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: evanpro (18%), aaronpk (8%), tantek (40%) 18:31:58 ack shepazu 18:32:16 +??P0 18:32:21 who just joined? 18:33:13 evanpro: is this a write-only API? 18:33:27 q+ to ask about how do you read someone's activities that have access restrictions? 18:33:46 sounds like crawl to query 18:33:56 ack evanpro 18:33:58 aaronpk: This is the write portion of the API. The discovery is via domain name, and the read part is via the HTML on the page + microformats. 18:34:03 ack elf-pavlik 18:34:04 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss how to add entry to target collection? eg. friend to friendslist or wish to wishlist 18:34:06 ^ 18:34:22 or photos to a photo collection 18:34:39 aaronpk: we don't have documented examples of social graph 18:34:49 aaronpk: currently about publishing content to a single stream 18:34:53 s/social graph/doing that - adding to a collection 18:34:53 +??P5 18:34:58 aaronpk: assumed to be a single collection 18:35:19 aaronpk: if people start publishing to collections, we would need to figure that out 18:35:21 thanks aaronpk 18:35:37 here is an example of a friend list https://kylewm.com/contacts would be a matter of accepting an h-card 18:35:48 tantek: follow up question to evanpro's 18:35:54 ack tantek 18:35:54 tantek, you wanted to ask about how do you read someone's activities that have access restrictions? 18:35:59 tantek: micropub assumes that 0auth 2.0 is taken care of 18:36:18 tantek: does that have impact on how private or privileged data is read? 18:36:28 tantek: or can you read private or limited data? 18:36:47 aaronpk: that would require authenticated requests to retrieve the HTML 18:37:01 aaronpk: I can post content only readable by tantek.com e.g. 18:37:14 aaronpk: micropub might be used to let other people edit my posts 18:37:20 aaronpk: but no examples of this yet 18:37:47 tantek: sounds like limited-access read is out of scope for micropub 18:38:12 tantek: if you were writing a client, how would you read a stream with a mix of private and public posts 18:38:25 aaronpk: so far micropub clients don't read or display streams 18:38:30 q? 18:38:50 aaronpk++ 18:38:52 aaronpk has 619 karma 18:39:01 scribenick aaronpk 18:39:21 evanpro: now covering pump.io API 18:39:23 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/pump.io_API 18:39:56 I'll take care of pushing forward jasnell's agenda item 18:40:00 implmeneted by pump.io and gnu media goblin 18:40:06 a number of clients for web, desktop, android and ios 18:40:17 talking specifically about client-server aspects of the API 18:40:28 federation protocol is built into the API, so won't cover that here 18:40:41 pump.io API uses Activity Streams 1.0 the JSON version on-the-wire 18:40:46 no support for atom or xml 18:41:00 internally models one-directional follow network (groups, contact lists, etc) 18:41:06 all come from the AS base schema 18:41:15 uses OAuth 1.0 for authentication 18:41:27 all clients need to use OAuth 1.0, even the web interface for pump.io 18:41:40 API has around 42 endpoints, so one of the bigger ones we've looked at 18:41:52 main part of the API are "feeds" for the user 18:41:54 (smaller than any of the proprietary ones though right?) 18:42:07 each user has an "outbox" feed which is activities theyv'e created 18:42:16 as well as an "inbox" feed which is things addressed to that person 18:42:24 things from groups they're members of, or based on people they follow 18:42:34 or posts directed to them by the author 18:42:37 Theres some redundancy there also - e.g. 9 "filtered" inbox variants 18:42:54 there's a mechanism in AS 1.0 to specify the audience (to, cc, etc) 18:43:06 input/output feeds have sub-feeds divided by the major and minor activities 18:43:15 does not treat all activities equally 18:43:32 "like" or "follow" is a minor activity, appear off to the right in the pump.io UI 18:43:40 whereas major feed items are posting new content, like photos or text 18:43:48 users create new activities by posting to their own feed 18:44:09 example profile ;) https://e14n.com/evan 18:44:17 inbox also has a sub-feed for direct activities, things specifically to them (like direct messaging) 18:44:33 there is CRUD access to the user profile 18:44:40 as well as feed of all users on the site 18:44:47 which is used to creating new users (post to that feed) 18:45:00 ther's social graph endpoints for getting a list of who you follow, who follow you, etc 18:45:12 the main feeds (inbox/output) are the main place API clients use 18:45:20 but it is possible to generate activities using the other endpoints 18:45:29 for example you can get the list of users you're following, you can also post to that list 18:45:37 similarly you can post to the favorites list 18:45:52 Augier has joined #social 18:45:53 users can also create lists of people, which become your contact list 18:46:00 can create photo albnums or other collections of objects 18:46:10 media upload endpoint you can use for uploading files 18:46:17 it is also a stream, so you can get the media objects back 18:46:32 posting uploads is kind of complicated, a few ways to do it, easiest way is browser-style multipart file upload 18:46:41 every activity has CRUD endpoints 18:46:54 collections all have feeds for members 18:47:09 you'd typically use an "add/remove" verb but can also post directly to i 18:47:22 for groups there are a few extra feeds, for members, documents, photos 18:47:40 all objects taht are created have CRUD via HTTP verbs (GET PUT DELETE) 18:47:57 in the pump.io implementation these actions (PUT) will create an edit activity for that object 18:48:16 objects also have feeds relating to the object, feed of people who have liked the object, feed of content posted in reply to the object, and who has reposted 18:48:26 spec for AS1.0 that has defined an umber of feeds that relate to an object 18:48:35 things like shares, for person may have following,followers,groups, etc 18:48:40 pump.io API uses those extensively 18:49:02 looking at the endpoints, reaosonable to think it's a pretty big API, but it's actually pretty small with a lot of API sugar thrown in 18:49:21 the core is really around the user feed and inbox feed 18:49:26 other things are there to make it easier for clients 18:49:27 For reference Impeller re-implements all that filtering stuff in the client (so it could be trimmed from the API) 18:49:48 similar in some way to opensocial except that a lot of the extra information around following/followers is handled through other aspects 18:49:56 Augier has joined #social 18:50:00 q+ re: can one use collections to create wishlists, skillslists, eventslists etc. ? 18:50:03 questions 18:50:08 ack elf-pavlik 18:50:08 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss can one use collections to create wishlists, skillslists, eventslists etc. ? 18:50:43 evanpro: you can. you can create lists of different kinds of objects named in a specific way 18:50:53 talking about a wishlist for a user, would have some way to relate that list tothe user 18:50:54 schema:seeks 18:51:18 you could create these lists they would just be tougher to discover than other kinds of lists 18:51:19 thanks evanpro 18:51:20 q? 18:51:59 did a poll last week about using "harder" verbs like put and delete 18:52:03 HTTP verbs 18:52:18 very few of the pump.io clients on IRC last week said they use PUT/DELETE 18:52:32 Impeller doesn't use PUT because of an accident of history (tried PUT, didn't work, tried activity, didn't work, fixed bug, it worked, never changed it back) 18:52:33 instead they use activities with related types. so an activity with a "delete" type rather than the HTTP DELETE verb 18:52:44 tantek: do you have any percentages? 18:52:55 evanpro: no statistics on that, but have an open action for looking at pump.io access logs for that. 18:52:58 guess is it will be very small 18:52:59 evanpro, do you know how http://sockethub.org/ does it? 18:53:05 is there any difference between a list and a collection? 18:53:21 evanpro: no, doesn't know how sockethub does it. never heard of it. 18:53:27 it uses AS1.0 18:53:29 does this need to go onto our list of apis to review? 18:53:39 Impeller will be definitively doing everything via activities because that unifies all things through a common outbox (which can be synced as and when network access is available) 18:53:39 and connects to fb, twitter, irc, smtp etx 18:53:46 s/etx/etc/ 18:53:53 difference between list and collection? no, lists are implemented as a collection 18:54:53 it has js library to connect to sockethub server 18:55:01 i'll post on maling list 18:55:03 we can decide then 18:55:04 sockethub -> Sockethub is a polyglot (speaking many different protocols and APIs) messaging service for social and other interactive messaging applications. It assists web app developers by providing server-independent, server-side functionality - which gives the application greater autonomy. It can be used as a tool for many different types of applications, large and small. 18:55:31 nope 18:55:31 tantek: is anyone here actually using sockethub for their own site? 18:56:04 last week we discussed only reviewing APIs and implementations someone here is using in the real world, or if someone thinks it has specific relevance to this group 18:56:04 fair point! 18:56:28 Let's wrap it up! 18:56:33 tantek: thanks for the overview evan 18:56:39 evanpro++ 18:56:41 evanpro has 3 karma 18:56:42 elf-pavlik, maybe ask if the sockethub folks want to participate in the WG or mailing list 18:56:43 if there's no more questions, move to close the call 18:56:46 +1 18:56:47 evanpro++ 18:56:48 evanpro has 4 karma 18:57:00 +1 closing call 18:57:02 shepazu, i did and Nick just needs to weigh this time capacity 18:57:02 Thanks tantek 18:57:18 hearing no objects, call is finished 18:57:19 -evanpro 18:57:22 thanks everyone 18:57:24 -Lloyd_Fassett_ 18:57:25 -Arnaud 18:57:25 -AdamB 18:57:25 thanks tantek , evanpro, aaronpk !!! 18:57:26 -jessica_lily 18:57:26 -tantek 18:57:28 see ya, very informative 18:57:28 -Doug_Schepers 18:57:28 -aaronpk 18:57:29 thx every1 18:57:31 -oshepherd 18:57:32 -rhiaro 18:57:33 -bret 18:57:35 -elf-pavlik 18:57:37 -cwebber2 18:57:37 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has ended 18:57:37 Attendees were evanpro, aaronpk, Arnaud, Lloyd_Fassett_, elf-pavlik, tantek, mattl, cwebber2, jessica_lily, bret, AdamB, Doug_Schepers, rhiaro, oshepherd 18:57:39 trackbot, end meeting 18:57:51 trackbot, end meeting 18:57:51 Zakim, list attendees 18:57:51 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 18:57:59 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 18:57:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-social-minutes.html trackbot 18:57:59 aaronpk on wiki, give me sec 18:58:00 RRSAgent, bye 18:58:00 I see no action items 19:01:15 RRSAgent has joined #social 19:01:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-social-irc 19:01:18 oh 19:01:19 s/scribenick/scribenick:/ 19:01:22 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 19:01:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/09-social-minutes.html elf-pavlik 19:01:28 s/scribenick/scribenick:/ 19:01:39 hey it worked 19:02:43 s/scribenick: eprodrom/scribenick: evanpro/ 19:02:53